but if the pups health is not diagnosed genetic how can a breeder be responsible? I thought that was what the dispute was over the seizures so what is the diagnosis as i have asked a few times and have not seen an answer unless I missed it?

Not sure if you read this entire thread. Nothing makes sense......it's more on she said, she said........Appears pup is alive and doing well.....but, other things have come into play and it's clear as mud.

yes I have read it in it's entirety and still have not seen anyone post the diagnosis and a few others asked if dog is still on anti-seizure meds yet no response on this. There are some real clear health issues that are genetic in regards to seizures and some not so clear. I am not on either side just want to know why this dog was seizing to better understand the dispute

As I said, no clear or straight answers from either side.....don't think we'll get at the bottom of it. One says pup is fine the other says no......Without out a trial and being there in the room and seeing the pup......I just think it's about airing dirty laundry.....too bad, because it should be about the pup.

I agree - sad as it should be about the pup and the facts of what is the true cause of those seizures and whether the dog was bred or not and if other dogs are being affected - everything is so unclear - Just glad the pup is doing well now

:confused:My thoughts exactly! I read the description of the living conditions of these dogs and was shocked a pup was purchased, much less for breeding:eek:

But how can a breeder work with the vet when the buyer will not provide vet information, vet reports or any document on what's going on? You'd think when the lawyer sent a letter demanding money returned, he'd also supply vet bill with diagnosis to show the breeder?

Unless you've been publicly and/or privately defamed, than you may not understand why some people have come to YT to defend themselves, including myself speaking my piece in this thread: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...ould-i-do.html

I love and take great pride in my dogs and I have worked hard to build my reputation not only as a breeder but as an owner and researcher of colorful yorkies. It's obvious from several replies from friends of my buyer, that she has told more people about the situation, than what I was led to believe by her. If her threat to continue "telling everyone" is true, than I have no option other than to protect myself like the OP of this thread has tried to protect herself by telling her side of the story. It just gets to the point where enough is enough and it's time to put every thing on the table, in plain view, for all to see. This has been mentally and emotionally draining, as well as, an etremely frustrating 14 months for me - the OP has dealt with hers for 5 years.

I've spoken in depth with the OP and have gotten her OK to post here because I think it's important to point out some very strange coincidences between this thread and the thread I started last week. As I read this thread when it began, it was like Deja vu.

Both buyers dogs began having seizures/tremors when the buyers were looking to buy a new dog (third instance with my buyer - 1 dog completely unrelated).
Both buyers would not provide vet reports or the phone numbers to the new owners of dog with seizure/tremor.
Both buyers say that the problem is a hereditary problem but both go on to breed these same "defective" lines or dogs.
Both buyers have similar writing styles, using similar phrases and terms in their posts and emails (but that's a thread in itself).
Both my buyer and the OP's buyer are president and vice president of the same club.

To get an idea of the intimidating and threatening emails I've received from my buyer, below is one of the last ones. If my buyer says these things to me, I'm sure what she's saying to others is equally bad, in fact I have emails that she wrote to a friend that convey the same type of message. If anyone has heard negative things about me concerning this story, I'd appreciate knowing what was said and by whom, I'm sure the OP would appreciate the same courtesy.

Email dated dated 6/7/10
But it does show me what kind of breeder you are that you keep breeding those dogs without care and don't even care about how pups from Your line are having these. If you had any morals about you you would have refunded some of my money, but then again you are not that good of a person to try to make amends for something you created in the first place. You don't even care about all the heartache you have caused. What you do to take care of a problem is what your reputation is built on. When you do nothing, pretty soon your reputation is zilch.

I will be telling everyone I talk to about your dogs, I have the videos to back up the line of Pinehaven dogs with tremors. All members of our club get warnings of bad breeders and the proof of them. We have 61 members and word of mouth gets around pretty fast. It doesnt take long for people to find out you don't stand behind your dogs.

No, I wont give the name of the ladies (who bought the pup), but the vets report is hereditary idiopathic head tremors. I am refunding their money. Good luck in selling your problems to someone else.

(note: for those who haven't read my story, my buyer could have received a full refund on her pup, she was offered an exchange puppy and she was offered 1000.00 back if she spayed her dog - she choose none of the above)

I'm not making accusations here, just saying the stories seem so oddly similar. Obviously something seems to have been going on with the pups but for both buyers to not disclose vet reports or other pertinent information that could help solve the mystery, yet still expect the breeders to refund all or a portion of their money, IMHO, is extremely unreasonable and things just don't seem to add up right.

wow - sad

I again do not know much about breeding but I have a dog with issues - she has LP4, mvd, hypothyroid and atopic dermatitis. I have probably spent more than was spent on the seizures trying to get her comfortable as the allergies are the biggest issue. She is limited AKC. It all started at 6 mos of age with allergies after puppy shots. The breeder did tell me she was an accident and that she had a dog in her line die of rabies vaccination and that she was a sick little pup in the beginning and almost did not make it. Of course I was a brand new pet owner and had no clue what all that meant lol but now I do. I contacted her when it all started spinning out of control and she stated she had never had a problem with allergies in her line etc. Due to that puppy dying of rabies vaccine I have to believe her line had poor immune systems and dd being an accident and the fact that my vet said she was inbred after reading her papers the poor immune system made sense. I paid $1300 for Dee Dee as well. I never bothered breeder after it all started after that first email where she denied it in her lines. I never knew about puppy lemon laws and never read the contract real close as again a first time pet owner.

Having gone through this I find this thread interesting.

I just know for me I would have put together a package of all the documentation from the vet diagnosing the pup and proof that this was genetic and not something else that triggered it. I would have overnighted the package with a signature required along with the health contract hilighted in reference to health guarantee for genetics. I would not have waited for phone calls. In doing this the breeder could take that information to her vet and they could review it together and decide on refund. Also you have proof the breeder had the documentation by signing for it.

What scares me is some say if the person returns the puppy to the breeder that some breeders just put these dogs down - is this true? This is why some people do not want to return a puppy that is ill as they grow attached to it and are fearful of this too. I personally would have just wanted my $1300 back so i could pay for the vet bills with it. I never even asked though as I have the money and just figured what is the point as I did not do my homework so I am partly to blame for that. Now had I done my homework then I would have pursued it more if I felt strongly and vet did that it was genetic based as vet care is very expensive for sick dogs. I think the breeder and owner should work together to get that dog the best care and be a team not fighting one another.

The thing to remember is just like when you have a baby and there are no guarantees the same goes with dogs. The thing is you cannot inbreed humans for a reason and why I have a problem with inbreeding of dogs so if this is done then the breeder needs to realize there can be some consequences to this which is health problems and be willing to step up when this happens.

This topic hits home for me as I have an inbred akc dog with health issues and I love my little girl but it has been a difficult 6 years taking care of her. The money part is the easy part for us but the emotional part is the hard part as when she is uncomfortable and itchy we are too as we care deeply for her and why i try my best to get her the best specialist but not everyone can afford it so then they have the emotional pain and the financial drain which is two times the pain.

I would like to point out some things, which is why I am here. Yes, I am a long time member and don't have many post. Does that make me bad? Over and over I have read how people fear this forum - they won't post on here because of a few people who "think" they run this forum, when the ones who really run this forum is administration. This is a public forum, I or anyone has a right to be a member. If I choose to post a million post or just a few that is my choice. But I will tell you, I will be posting on this forum just like everyone else in the future, the only difference though, is I will not be attacking someone like some choose to do on here. I choose to spread a lot of love and happiness and true compassion here. It surprises me the people who post comments about someone they absolutely know nothing about, or that they know this or that, when in reality they really don't. For someone to post negativity about my feelings, I don' know of anyone on here who has walked a mile in my shoes. So time and again I have seen many to cast judgement on someone without knowing both sides.

There are always two sides to a story and I came here to point out some recent events that have come about concerning some very untrue things that have been written about me on here.

In this post,

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/55236-post1.html

This person states that money paid she is now given a 5 generation pedigree. Not at all true, she was given the 5 generation pedigree and told up front before money paid. Also in the post she states little Scooter will now need medicine and testing the rest of his life.

In this post,

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/248448-post19.html

Everyone on this forum is now told 6 months later in this own persons words that Scooters dog food is changed and the seizures stopped in 3-4 days. Why was the earlier post above made by this person then when she very well knew in January when Scooters seizures started that they ended in 3-4 days with a change of dog food? Not what she told everyone in her earlier post on here, she stated he needed a lifetime of medication and monitoring.

I am here to tell you that the conditions this person speaks of at my home are yet more of this persons untruths about me. My little dogs are very loved and were not in the conditions as she states. This woman contacted me almost 2 months later wanting another puppy after she purchased Scooter. I have an email I would like to share with everyone that proves what I am saying. Why does she state in this thread I have started here, to remove her email?

ANGELIC CANINES |

Why so everyone can't see for themselves that she used this forum for the wrong purposes and did not tell people the truth. It recently came to my attention that this person is now breeding dogs that carry the same line as Scooter in their pedigree as I have pointed out in this thread. If she felt something was genetically wrong with Scooter why is she breeding dogs with his lines in there line? Again as I have shown in this thread why did this person come on this forum and state the things she has and then turn around in October and state what she told everyone earlier was not true. Why on earth did she write such horrible stories then?

This forum was used for the wrong reasons by this person as I have pointed out yet again. Is it right for someone to come on here and make bad statements against some one and months later come to find out the statements made by that person are untrue as I am trying to point out here? I am trying to point out statements made about me are not true by this person.

I do pray little Scooter has a very loving home and is doing well.

Because she was new to breeding and stupid and didn't know anything about puppy mills at the time. (her words, not mine before anyone jumps on me saying I called someone stupid)

So, sounds to me like that is partially where the problem started and something you would have to take responsibility for. It happens, but you have to deal with the consequences and realize that your unpreparedness got you into that position to begin with. Again, doesn't make the breeder's actions morally right, but it's something that possibly could have been avoided.

(this is more just generally speaking, not really related to just this instance)

Ah I see Sue. The part you play in all of this make a little more sense now. Because it seemed pretty apparent from the start of the thread that you were somehow involved or connected to this situation somehow.

Still a bit unclear though. So are you saying that you think these two buyers, the one complaining about this breeder (YorkieGirl2) and the one that made the claims against you are the same person, or friends, or working together or something? If the similarites you point out are true, then that would be a very big coincidence and very interesting indeed! Not sure I fully understand the connection though...so forgive me if I've gotten it wrong.

There is a lot of what ifs in this whole thread. But, what really speaks loud and clear, is the buyer didn't do their homework and the breeder's story is clear as mud. There is a away to circumvent a problem such as this.....Don't buy or don't sell to people you haven't built a relationship with. Don't ship across the country where you are unable to keep track of your puppies and their new owners.

Wow

I feel if you sit back long enough the truth eventually comes out as people cannot cover up lies for very long as lies are hard to always remember so the person is always trying to remember the lie but you can always remember the truth. Maybe the truth is all starting to unfold and took years to do so.

Do you have pictures of your kennel? Post those so that can be proved wrong.

I really hope you two can come to a resolution and the truth is known to both sides so you both can move on as this is obviously eating at both of you and very sad as anger and resentment can affect your health and that is not good for either of you.

It sounds like this pup is doing well now but I still want to know the true diagnosis and if genetic?

There is no way the truth will be known to us, unless we are right there. Anyone can say anything on the internet, post whatever they want; pics, etcl.

What it boils down to, that situations like this is educating others.

yep and why i took full responsibility myself as I was partly to blame for not doing my homework so paying the price and why I try to educate others and help others who were uneducated like myself with the trail of debris behind it. DD's breeder was not a puppymill but dex was from a pet store so he is from lambriar kennels. DD's breeder seemed really nice and seemed to really care about the breed etc but you just never know as there are no guarantees in life sadly. Dex is healthier than Dee Dee so go figure :( oh and Dee Dee was found in the PENNY SAVER lol no pennies saved there

yeah that is true I guess people can be whoever they want to be on the internet - sad but I think when they post many times we can usually figure out what is going on as it is hard to hide that for very long. Usually they slip up if not telling the truth from thread to thread. I think over time we can get a pretty good picture about the person behind the posts.

I agree about pics but I guess I am naive to think that most people are good and are honest and if not usually can figure it all out over time.

yep that is what I will do the next time - IF there is a next time as this has been so difficult not sure I want to take that chance again :( This is what is sad is when people end up with these little ones sometimes they do not want to go through it again:(

What the OP has forgot to say is the e-mail I send her was on Jan 23rd.
The seizures didn't start until Jan 28th.
What she also left out is the fact she used this same email on her website under Testimonials a few months later, along with pics of my dogs
(without permission) to further hurt me.

duplicate

Can you please post the diagnosis as to why the seizures as I am sure the vet gave you the diagnosis.
Also is the dog still on anti-seizure medication?

Also did you breed this dog that had seizures?

I think this will help some of us understand your side as well.

I know I am not on either side and learning from all this as well having dealt with a dog with health issues.

Jezzz.. Thanks for posting my private message but if you are going to post it why didn't you post all of it ??

This is what I said.
You asked why I bought from the OP.
Because I was new to breeding and stupid.
I didn't know anything about good, bad breeders or puppymills until I found YT.

The OP had been breeding for 20 + years so I assumed she an experienced good breeder...
BOY, WAS I STUPID.

we all make mistakes and learn from them but this is why breeding should be left to the professional breeders or having a mentor like Mary always states. I could never breed as i would have a house full of pups as i could not give them up lolll.

So could there be a mistake in the diagnosis of seizures that this whole debate is over? Could it have been food and easy fix and all this could be resolved and everyone can move on and be happy?

as you will notice I have never mentioned DD's breeder's name because I was partly to blame.

To clarify, I refer the OP (Deb McCabe) and my self as the "Breeders," I refer to yorkiegirl2 and my client as the "Buyers". I pointed out the odd similarities between the situation that I've experienced with my "Buyer", and comparing it to the situation that the OP (Deb McCabe) has had with her buyer.

I have spoken to the OP on occasion on a professional level, in the past but knew nothing of her situation until reading it myself.

I don't know if there is any connection, only that the events and actions that have occurred in these two different stories, are strangely (coincidentally?) very similar? Like I said, when I read this thread, it was like Deja vu - like I was reading my own experience again but with different characters.

These "Buyers" are 2 different people, the dogs they each purchased are dogs and lines that are completely unrelated to each other - I merely pointed out the similarities between this thread and my thread/experience.

Would be nice to move on but the OP doesn't want to move on.
She not I brought all this back up.
I will not discuss this any any further because anything I say get
twisted by the OP.
All I can say is I wished I never met the OP.

but no one can twist the facts so state the diagnosis and state whether you bred this dog as those are the facts. By you avoiding those questions it makes others on here question it. She is not moving on as you have posted threads on here which show up on search engines. She obviously feels strongly this is incorrect info or she would not have posted here after all this time. Usually people will move on if they feel they did something wrong and if they do not feel they did it causes them to not be able to move on sadly until it is resolved.

Got it...now it makes sense. :)

Sorry, I thought it was better NOT to post your exact Private Message or even mention that I'd received one from you at all. So I left that part out. Minor point in any event.

I've been following this thread and I feel that people have been picking up on only part of the thread .... the "Scooter part"... and beating it to death.

I know both people... Sherry (yorkiegirl2) and Deb (animal1 - the original OP).

Anyway, from what I read... Deb posted because one of Sherry's current dogs has one of her dogs somewhere in the lines.... the same lines as Scooter.

Scooter went to his new home "years ago" and is living happily ever after.
Scooter is "neutered". The seizures have stopped as far as Sherry knows.

So Scooter is "no longer" a "current" issue anymore.... other than the fact that Sherry ended up with a dog who has Scooter's dad, granddad (whomever) back a few generations.

I purchased my first yorkie (my Mickey, who I had neutered as a pup) from Deb. He is almost 10 1/2 years old. He's kind of a fatso, never looked like a standard yorkie (hair-wise).... but he is the love of my life!

I live down the road from Sherry.

I am not taking sides.... stuff happens.... move on. :)

I will clarify what I posted, that may help answer some of your questions.

Yorkiegirl2, is breeding the same blood lines together that her dog Scooter had.

My Buyer bred the dog that was purchased from me. This dog began displaying a head tremor shortly after arriving at Buyers home but tremor later stopped (without any medication). My Buyer went ahead and bred the dog and as of 2 weeks ago, two of her pups are now displaying head tremors.