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-   -   Defamation, dishonesty and untruths (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/206262-defamation-dishonesty-untruths.html)

Pinehaven 06-15-2010 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiegirl2 (Post 3163760)
Sue you assume a lot.
The OP DID have the vets name and phone number.
You can not communicate with someone who will not answer or return phone calls.
Again, I'm assuming, but in addition to the OP having the name and number of the vet, was she also aware that you had given your vet permission to discuss the events with the Breeder? Without your permission, your vet will discuss nothing with anyone.

BTW, is Scooter still on the anti seizure medications to control his seizures?

yorkiegirl2 06-15-2010 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinehaven (Post 3163773)
Again, I'm assuming, but in addition to the OP having the name and number of the vet, was she also aware that you had given your vet permission to discuss the events with the Breeder? Without your permission, your vet will discuss nothing with anyone.

BTW, is Scooter still on the anti seizure medications to control his seizures?
Yes she was told and the Vet waited on a call from her that never came.
I have not seen Scooter since 2007.

laci32 06-15-2010 09:46 AM
Ok I'm confused .How can an inbred dog be a pedagree ? Why would you breed a half brother and sister. Third why would you buy one . Why is thread going again . sheesh

Mardelin 06-15-2010 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3163094)
Were there other puppies in that litter? Did any of them show any signs of seizures? Were those two dogs mate at any other time? did any of those litters contain puppies that had seizures?

I think it is unfair to blame the breeder for something that has not been proven. I believe that is the issue here. The breeder was called a bad breeder but no one can say that the seizures were due to in-breeding.

It could have been the food, or it could have been caused by head trauma. If there has never been any other dogs in that line with seizures, it seems unlikely that the seizures were caused by faujlty breeding.

Close line breeding is not uncommon with experienced breeders, that know the lines and feel comfortable that there are no hereditary issues in the line.
Jeannie

Half brother to half sister is not line breeding, this is inbreeding. Only the very experienced breeders do this on occassion. Usually when bringing in a new line. It is done to lock in a type, but in doing so you are also locking in faults. So, one has to be very careful when doing and accept responsibility for the outcome. Usually it is done not without the intent of selling puppies. A breeder will keep them and run them through to monitor for months.

Mardelin 06-15-2010 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3163196)
I don't understand why the OP was not given a statement from the vet. Why would the buyer not give her a statement and return the dog for a refund.

No one can expect to be given a refund and still keep the dog.

Things just don't add up.
Jeanie,

Please don't think I'm dogging you. But, your statement is incorrect. Should a puppy have a medical condion that can be managed with meds/surgery. A reputable breeder will return the fee of the dog and allow the pup to be kept. This is done to assist with medical costs.

livingdustmops 06-15-2010 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3163814)
Jeannie

Half brother to half sister is not line breeding, this is inbreeding. Only the very experienced breeders do this on occassion. Usually when bringing in a new line. It is done to lock in a type, but in doing so you are also locking in faults. So, one has to be very careful when doing and accept responsibility for the outcome. Usually it is done not without the intent of selling puppies. A breeder will keep them and run them through to monitor for months.
I think the other key word is "experienced" breeders. I am amazed how many people think they are experienced when they have only been breeding a few years. I remember when I first came on YT this was discussed and I remember someone saying it was not to be done with the faint of heart and usually was by someone with over 20 years of experience. Either the breeder kept the puppies, or placed them in pet homes to follow the lines. It was not done by many breeders because they knew it could be death for the puppies or else a life time of ill health.

I am afraid to many people are doing this without any knowledge or experience or understanding of what the outcome could be.

Mardelin 06-15-2010 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 3163822)
I think the other key word is "experienced" breeders. I am amazed how many people think they are experienced when they have only been breeding a few years. I remember when I first came on YT this was discussed and I remember someone saying it was not to be done with the faint of heart and usually was by someone with over 20 years of experience. Either the breeder kept the puppies, or placed them in pet homes to follow the lines. It was not done by many breeders because they knew it could be death for the puppies or else a life time of ill health.

I am afraid to many people are doing this without any knowledge or experience or understanding of what the outcome could be.
I don't know if the # of years of experience has anything to do with it. But, it should only be done by those that have had ample training, taken classes and have the best mentors working with them. I've seen people that have been breeding for 10, 20, 30 years that haven't a clue about breeding. Yes, they breed, but don't have a clue about how to breed.

livingdustmops 06-15-2010 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3163832)
I don't know if the # of years of experience has anything to do with it. But, it should only be done by those that have had ample training, taken classes and have the best mentors working with them. I've seen people that have been breeding for 10, 20, 30 years that haven't a clue about breeding. Yes, they breed, but don't have a clue about how to breed.
You are right, number of years mean nothing. Heck the Hunt Corporation has been breeding longer than many breeders on YT and they don't have a clue except how to churn out puppies.

chachi 06-15-2010 10:29 AM
IM amazed by some of the statements by breeders on here

BamaFan121s 06-15-2010 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3163832)
I don't know if the # of years of experience has anything to do with it. But, it should only be done by those that have had ample training, taken classes and have the best mentors working with them. I've seen people that have been breeding for 10, 20, 30 years that haven't a clue about breeding. Yes, they breed, but don't have a clue about how to breed.
So true! Ample training and education are the key! I see similar mindsets in regards to the sheer number of litters one has produced as well and I just don't get it. Quantity and Quality are not synonomous. If that were the case, then there are some puppy millers churning out litters left and right that I'm sure have more "experience" then most here. I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone turn to them for advice! :eek:

animal1 06-15-2010 10:51 AM
To answer your questions JeanieK. Scooter has a full sister whom as of to date now has had NO seizures. Yes Scooters parents were bred to other dogs and none of those puppies ever produced puppies with seizures that I know of to this date.

No I was not given a name and number of Mrs McSwains Vet. No I was never given a Vet statement. I have bought puppies in the past and if the puppy was found to have a problem by my Vet, my Vet would call the breeder themself. I have dealt with several Vets in my lifetime and this has been common practice by all those Vets. I did not receive a call from her Vet.

Mrs. McSwain, would you please share the new owners phone number with me so I can find out for myself how Scooter's doing since you have not been concerned enough to talk with them in the last 3 years?

I in no way come on here to hurt or offend anyone - I'm just here to try to repair my damaged name and felt that these issues needed to be pointed out.

Princes mom 06-15-2010 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamSweet (Post 3163696)
With time, women gain weight because we accumulate so much information and wisdom in our heads that when there is no more room, it distributes out to the rest of our bodies.
So we aren't heavy, we are enormously cultured, educated and happy.
Beginning today, when I look at my butt in the mirror I will think, "Good grief, look how smart I am!"
(Must be where phrase Smart Ass came from:)
Well, I guess I need some more knowledge to fill in some of these "dimples" that appeared overnight!!

Wylie's Mom 06-15-2010 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamSweet (Post 3163696)
With time, women gain weight because we accumulate so much information and wisdom in our heads that when there is no more room, it distributes out to the rest of our bodies.
So we aren't heavy, we are enormously cultured, educated and happy.
Beginning today, when I look at my butt in the mirror I will think, "Good grief, look how smart I am!"
(Must be where phrase Smart Ass came from) :)
{Sorry to interrupt this thread but....}

You are SIMPLY AWESOME :D:p:D!

Rhetts_mama 06-15-2010 11:21 AM
OK, I should probably shut up, but I have to say that genetics are complicated. It's possible for a line to carry a recessive gene (say for a protein chain deficiency) and it will not be expressed for many generations. That's because each dog will still have one good gene that overrides a defect.

The line will continue fine until two dogs who both carry it (say half-siblings) breed. Then each of their pups will have a 1:4 chance of not carrying the gene at all, 2:4 chance of carrying the gene and being totally healthy (but now they are both carriers themselves) and a 1:4 chance of getting both copies of the gene and then expressing symptoms.

Plus then there is always the possibility of a spontaneous gene mutation that NO ONE could have seen coming, no matter what the lineage.


I'm NOT saying this is what happened in THIS case. Just that because only one pup out of a litter is sick and the rest are healthy and because this type of thing hadn't happened in the line before now doesn't rule out that there is a genetic component.

Mardelin 06-15-2010 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 3163909)
{Sorry to interrupt this thread but....}

You are SIMPLY AWESOME :D:p:D!
Dang! I must be losing wisdom, since I'm a skinny person and losing my butt.:confused:

Mardelin 06-15-2010 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama (Post 3163911)
OK, I should probably shut up, but I have to say that genetics are complicated. It's possible for a line to carry a recessive gene (say for a protein chain deficiency) and it will not be expressed for many generations. That's because each dog will still have one good gene that overrides a defect.

The line will continue fine until two dogs who both carry it (say half-siblings) breed. Then each of their pups will have a 1:4 chance of not carrying the gene at all, 2:4 chance of carrying the gene and being totally healthy (but now they are both carriers themselves) and a 1:4 chance of getting both copies of the gene and then expressing symptoms.

Plus then there is always the possibility of a spontaneous gene mutation that NO ONE could have seen coming, no matter what the lineage.


I'm NOT saying this is what happened in THIS case. Just that because only one pup out of a litter is sick and the rest are healthy and because this type of thing hadn't happened in the line before now doesn't rule out that there is a genetic component.
What is sadder yet, is there is no genetic marker to tell us whether a dog is a carrier or not.

livingdustmops 06-15-2010 11:40 AM
[QUOTE=Rhetts_mama;3163911]OK, I should probably shut up, but I have to say that genetics are complicated. It's possible for a line to carry a recessive gene (say for a protein chain deficiency) and it will not be expressed for many generations. That's because each dog will still have one good gene that overrides a defect.

The line will continue fine until two dogs who both carry it (say half-siblings) breed. Then each of their pups will have a 1:4 chance of not carrying the gene at all, 2:4 chance of carrying the gene and being totally healthy (but now they are both carriers themselves) and a 1:4 chance of getting both copies of the gene and then expressing symptoms.

Plus then there is always the possibility of a spontaneous gene mutation that NO ONE could have seen coming, no matter what the lineage.


I'm NOT saying this is what happened in THIS case.



I agree and just because one puppy has health issues due to genetic problems does not mean all the puppies do. Look at Liver Shunt. I have never seen a whole litter get LS (maybe has happened I just have never read this) but I do know most reputable breeders will not breed the two dogs together again because of the one puppy.

yorkiegirl2 06-15-2010 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by animal1 (Post 3163871)
To answer your questions JeanieK. Scooter has a full sister whom as of to date now has had NO seizures. Yes Scooters parents were bred to other dogs and none of those puppies ever produced puppies with seizures that I know of to this date.

No I was not given a name and number of Mrs McSwains Vet. No I was never given a Vet statement. I have bought puppies in the past and if the puppy was found to have a problem by my Vet, my Vet would call the breeder themself. I have dealt with several Vets in my lifetime and this has been common practice by all those Vets. I did not receive a call from her Vet.

Mrs. McSwain, would you please share the new owners phone number with me so I can find out for myself how Scooter's doing since you have not been concerned enough to talk with them in the last 3 years?

I in no way come on here to hurt or offend anyone - I'm just here to try to repair my damaged name and felt that these issues needed to be pointed out.
Yes, you did have the vets info !!!

Oh yes,
Your right I had no concern for Scooter.
I did not sit and cry when the poor thing had seizures one after another.
I didn't care enough to spend 4 days/nights at the vet office trying to help him.
I did not sleep right beside him each night to comfort him after the seizures.
I did not spend money on Vet visits, his meds and tests trying to get the seizures his under control.
I didn't care enough once his seizures were under control to screen 30 people and get him placed in the best possible home (FREE).

And now after 5 years your showing concern ???

After you recieve a letter from my lawyer about
returning the money paid for him to go toward his treatment.
What did you send me back ???
A 72 hour contract highlighed
ALL SALES ARE FINAL !!

BellaDonna 06-15-2010 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiegirl2 (Post 3162894)
He was never used for breeding.
I place him with someone free.
They had him neutered and had the resources to keep up testing and meds.
I am confused and trying to sort this out but I have 2 questions:

1. If he wasn't used for breeding how come his lines are continued in dogs you now have and breed ?

2. Why would you give him away to someone without neutering him first?

dogbert 06-15-2010 12:57 PM
"Mom to 6 Chihuahuas 1 Yorkie and 5 Cats! Ok...maybe I am a little twisted! :confused:"


This made me laugh.

mojo 06-15-2010 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiegirl2 (Post 3163960)
Yes, you did have the vets info !!!

Oh yes,
Your right I had no concern for Scooter.
I did not sit and cry when the poor thing had seizures one after another.
I didn't care enough to spend 4 days/nights at the vet office trying to help him.
I did not sleep right beside him each night to comfort him after the seizures.
I did not spend money on Vet visits, his meds and tests trying to get the seizures his under control.
I didn't care enough once his seizures were under control to screen 30 people and get him placed in the best possible home (FREE).

And now after 5 years your showing concern ???

After you recieve a letter from my lawyer about
returning the money paid for him to go toward his treatment.
What did you send me back ???
A 72 hour contract highlighed
ALL SALES ARE FINAL !!
Ummm, sorry, little confused here, who is it that forced you to sign that contract?
Please everyone be aware of what you are signing.

But I totally agree the o/p did not come on here after 5 years due to a deep concern over this poor dog.

BamaFan121s 06-15-2010 06:26 PM
I have to agree mojo. :thumbup:

It doesn't necessarily make what some breeders do moral, but at some point you have to take responsibility for the agreements you enter, even if you were unaware and unprepared at the time and more knowledgeable now. Just a hard lesson learned sometimes and "I didn't know better" will only go so far.

(Generally speaking.)

JeanieK 06-17-2010 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 3163514)
Personally I find this whole thread has other motives and to post something 5 years later is just ridiculous and a lot of mis-information is being given.

I might add a lot of reputable breeders would let the owner keep the dog and pay the vet bills. If someone is only into breeding for the $$$ then they will do anything in their power to blame the new owner instead of stepping up to the plate and admit it might be from their breeding. Someone who is concerned for the dogs first would do this.

I highly doubt this happened because of dog food or a an injury to the brain but that is just my opinion based on a dog that was hit in the head with a baseball bat and if it was dog food the dog would be dead.
It does seem strange that the siezures stopped after they changed dog food. I personally believe there is more to the story than what has been told.

As for a breeder allowing someone to keep the dog and agreeing to pay for the vet bills. That would be pretty risky, like giving someone a blank check, expecting them to use it responsibly. If I am going to pay for the care, I would want to be the one making the decisions about his care.

Mardelin 06-17-2010 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3166808)
It does seem strange that the siezures stopped after they changed dog food. I personally believe there is more to the story than what has been told.

As for a breeder allowing someone to keep the dog and agreeing to pay for the vet bills. That would be pretty risky, like giving someone a blank check, expecting them to use it responsibly. If I am going to pay for the care, I would want to be the one making the decisions about his care.
I know of one pup that was having siezures and when they changed the pups plastic plate to stainless steel the siezures stopped. Yes, there have been occasions of dogs having siezures with food, brought on by a batch of bad food or an allergic reaction.

A reputable breeder would work with the vet, new pup owner to get at the bottom of the problem. If it is diagnosed as a genetic defect, a reputable/responsible breeder would refund the pet fee and let the owner keep the pup. The refund is to assist in the medical care of the pup, that would be a reputable breeders main priority and standing behind ones dogs. Not the money.

shodanusmc 06-17-2010 05:44 PM
For a moment when I looked at the title, I thought it was about me. Carry on!

143julz 06-17-2010 05:53 PM
Where's Judge Judy???

Mardelin 06-17-2010 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shodanusmc (Post 3166837)
For a moment when I looked at the title, I thought it was about me. Carry on!
If it was about you, I'd tell you.

BaxtersMommy 06-17-2010 06:02 PM
This thread has gone entirely too long. I am sick of seeing it at the top.

dwerten 06-17-2010 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3166823)
I know of one pup that was having siezures and when they changed the pups plastic plate to stainless steel the siezures stopped. Yes, there have been occasions of dogs having siezures with food, brought on by a batch of bad food or an allergic reaction.

A reputable breeder would work with the vet, new pup owner to get at the bottom of the problem. If it is diagnosed as a genetic defect, a reputable/responsible breeder would refund the pet fee and let the owner keep the pup. The refund is to assist in the medical care of the pup, that would be a reputable breeders main priority and standing behind ones dogs. Not the money.
yes and rosemary in food can trigger seizures if a dog is prone to seizures

What was the final diagnosis of this pup with seizures?

Mardelin 06-17-2010 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 3166888)
yes and rosemary in food can trigger seizures if a dog is prone to seizures

What was the final diagnosis of this pup with seizures?
While the subject is a pups health, the issue is more with breeding practices. Or rather breeder's responsibilities.


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