Biewer & Parti-Yorkie---difference?

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

So, in any given population of yorkies, there should be this color "variation?"

What do you mean exactly?

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

What do you mean exactly?

I mean, if the parti colors are a naturally occuring coloring of the yorkshire terrier, then in any group of yorkies that are bred, this coloring should come up occasionally?

[Breezeaway]

It can if the parents are Carriers for the gene.

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

It can if the parents are Carriers for the gene.

I guess I don't get it then. If it's a different genetic make-up, then it would be a different breed, not just a color variation.

Here is a little bit of something I read from Cher Hildebrand that is very interesting. Top Parti Yorkies Genetics Parti Yorkie Parti Color Yorkshire Terrier and Biewer Yorkies

I mean, I just find the whole subject interesting. I have never personally seen a parti colored Yorkie, so I have absolutely no experience with them. I have also never met someone with one, so the only things I know about them is what I have read on this forum. I just cannot get my brain to process that parti colored Yorkies could possibly be pure-bred Yorkshire terriers.

I honestly don't even understand how they came about in the first place - even assuming that they are pure-bred Yorkies. Since they aren't the standard, why would anyone breed for that trait? And, if this coloring just "popped up" one day and breeders decided they liked it and wanted to breed for it, then why wouldn't it be accepted by the YTCA? I don't understand why there is a controversy as far as the YTCA is concerned if there is "proof" that there was no cross-breeding involved to attain this coloring.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

I guess there's noting wrong with being optimistic. I just think you'd have better luck going the 'seperate breed' route.

Not a chance in He**on that one, Since there are no other breeds mixed in, and AKC requires atr least 3 breeds be mixed todf develope a new breed.

That's why I feel the Biewer breeders have shot themselves in the foot with that route.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

I have no idea how you would go about it. I'm just saying, if the parent club says they aren't yorkies, then the chances of 'getting in' are nil.

But the PARENT club does say they are yorkies. The fact that they listed the parti color as as DQ proves that they recognize them as yorkies.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

I guess I don't get it then. If it's a different genetic make-up, then it would be a different breed, not just a color variation.

Here is a little bit of something I read from Cher Hildebrand that is very interesting. Top Parti Yorkies Genetics Parti Yorkie Parti Color Yorkshire Terrier and Biewer Yorkies

I mean, I just find the whole subject interesting. I have never personally seen a parti colored Yorkie, so I have absolutely no experience with them. I have also never met someone with one, so the only things I know about them is what I have read on this forum. I just cannot get my brain to process that parti colored Yorkies could possibly be pure-bred Yorkshire terriers.

I honestly don't even understand how they came about in the first place - even assuming that they are pure-bred Yorkies. Since they aren't the standard, why would anyone breed for that trait? And, if this coloring just "popped up" one day and breeders decided they liked it and wanted to breed for it, then why wouldn't it be accepted by the YTCA? I don't understand why there is a controversy as far as the YTCA is concerned if there is "proof" that there was no cross-breeding involved to attain this coloring.

A few comments about the link that you posted.

Goldenray talks of the Gordon sisters and their book, “The Complete Yorkshire Terrier.” Even the Gordon sisters had their own share of parti color showing up in their litters. During the AKC Parti investigation in the late 1990’s, one of the Gordon sisters told AKC that they had more parti pups than Nikkos kennel’s had but that they “got rid” of them.

Goldenray says that “The only way that gene could come into existence is for breedings to have occurred somewhere along the line with Maltese or Shih Tzu. My personal theory is that both are great possibilities.” There are numerous books and writing from the late 1800’s that say it was felt that the Maltese WAS indeed used to breed to short coated scotch terriers to increase the length of coats.

When talking about “The Stockkeeper in 1887,” it doesn’t tell you that Kershaw’s Kitty was solid blue with no tan markings, she had on saddle, she had no tan. Since there was very little record keeping in those days, we don’t know what colors the parents, grandparents or great grandparents were of these dogs who began this breed. Even if they were correctly colored, it doesn’t mean that they didn’t harbor hidden genes for other colors.

The article also says that “the Biewers can never be shown in AKC events as they are not registered with an organization acceptable in the US.” Well, never say never cause as we learned a few posts above, that they have been accepted into a foreign registry that AKC does
Recognize (and thus will allow registry transfers into AKC).

This is a man made breed and the genes that some of our dogs inherited may not be the ideal genetic code that the YTCA wishes it could be.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

That's not the way I read the statment on the YTCA website. It seemed pretty clear that the opinion is that they are not Yorkies.


"Yorkies do not have white markings…never have" and etc read to me as though there is no possibility that a pure Yorkshire terrier can have white markings on the saddle.

That's why I thought the 'seperate breed' route would be a better battle.

But that theory has been proven wrong. Why would they need to DQ them if they are not yorkies?

The separate breed route is impossible because we cannot prove that they are something they they are not. But it can be and has been proven that they are yorkies.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

LOL...so in otherwords, you think the YTCA's acceptance of them could be bought if someone paid them enough? LOL...maybe if the Parti breeders of the world who charge 5-6K for their dogs simply because "they can to meet the demand" pooled their resources together, they could pull that off.

Maybe!!! But it is only going to take getting the right person interestred in showing them. And that is only a matter of time.

Eventually someone will have the clout, the desire, resources to take on the YTCA.

[WalnutHill]

Okay. Very interesting. It's a catch-22 though - can't be a seperate breed but 'can't' be a variation of the current breed....


I have wondered what the actual lineage is, since I have never seen one. But, this is all very interesting.

Would 'parti people' like to see it as a variety of the Yorkshire terrier? I can't see the possibility of a parti yorkie ever competing against a 'standard' yorkie.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

I guess I don't get it then. If it's a different genetic make-up, then it would be a different breed, not just a color variation.

Becsuse there was such a variety of breeds that made up the yorkie, there were a lot of hidden genes. Once they decided what they wanted the yorkie to look like, they culled those that were born the wrong color, so that color as kept hidden.

Here is a little bit of something I read from Cher Hildebrand that is very interesting. Top Parti Yorkies Genetics Parti Yorkie Parti Color Yorkshire Terrier and Biewer Yorkies

We've all read Goldenrays site. There has been a lot of new information discovered in the last couple of years, They need to get their heads out of the sand.

I mean, I just find the whole subject interesting. I have never personally seen a parti colored Yorkie, so I have absolutely no experience with them. I have also never met someone with one, so the only things I know about them is what I have read on this forum. I just cannot get my brain to process that parti colored Yorkies could possibly be pure-bred Yorkshire terriers.

I honestly don't even understand how they came about in the first place - even assuming that they are pure-bred Yorkies. Since they aren't the standard, why would anyone breed for that trait? And, if this coloring just "popped up" one day and breeders decided they liked it and wanted to breed for it, then why wouldn't it be accepted by the YTCA? I don't understand why there is a controversy as far as the YTCA is concerned if there is "proof" that there was no cross-breeding involved to attain this coloring.

You can read on our website CYTC...Our Mission , howthey came about.
It did not just pop up one day, they have been popping up since the breed first started, but one day someone did actually say, hey these are beautiful dogs, why are we culling them.

They had a long hard battle with the AKC to get them recognized, but eventually they proved to the satisfaction of the AKC, that this color does occur naturally in the yorkshire terrier breed. And that is how it came about.

There are books and show records from the 1800's that speak of white yorkies.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

Okay. Very interesting. It's a catch-22 though - can't be a seperate breed but 'can't' be a variation of the current breed....


I have wondered what the actual lineage is, since I have never seen one. But, this is all very interesting.

Would 'parti people' like to see it as a variety of the Yorkshire terrier? I can't see the possibility of a parti yorkie ever competing against a 'standard' yorkie.

I cannot speak for everyone, but for myself, I think they would be better in a separate category, mainly because the judging is so subjective and judges are biased.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

that they have been accepted into a foreign registry that AKC does
Recognize (and thus will allow registry transfers into AKC).

Currently though, AKC is not allowing Biewer to be registered with them...even if they are transferred from another registry that AKC recognizes. Just wanted to point as the way it is stated above is a bit confusing.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Maybe!!! But it is only going to take getting the right person interestred in showing them. And that is only a matter of time.

Eventually someone will have the clout, the desire, resources to take on the YTCA.

Hmmm...time will tell I suppose. Optomism never hurts, even if that is all it is for now. IMO, claiming that they will be excepted eventually is no more than speculation and hoping at this point...not something anything knows for certain, unless there really ARE magical crystal balls...likely, likely not. Again, only time will tell. It will be interesting to see, that's for sure.

[yorkiegirl2]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

I guess I don't get it then. If it's a different genetic make-up, then it would be a different breed, not just a color variation.

Here is a little bit of something I read from Cher Hildebrand that is very interesting. Top Parti Yorkies Genetics Parti Yorkie Parti Color Yorkshire Terrier and Biewer Yorkies

I mean, I just find the whole subject interesting. I have never personally seen a parti colored Yorkie, so I have absolutely no experience with them. I have also never met someone with one, so the only things I know about them is what I have read on this forum. I just cannot get my brain to process that parti colored Yorkies could possibly be pure-bred Yorkshire terriers.

I honestly don't even understand how they came about in the first place - even assuming that they are pure-bred Yorkies. Since they aren't the standard, why would anyone breed for that trait? And, if this coloring just "popped up" one day and breeders decided they liked it and wanted to breed for it, then why wouldn't it be accepted by the YTCA? I don't understand why there is a controversy as far as the YTCA is concerned if there is "proof" that there was no cross-breeding involved to attain this coloring.

To understand you would need to research the history of the breed in the beginning.
The dogs started out as rat catchers they were not bred to a standard.
They were bred back to other dogs who also had good rat catching skills.
No records were kept at this time of who or what breeds were bred together.

It wasn’t until the show era started that they started breeding for a certain type of dog.
But by this time there were already different breeds mixed in with the founding dogs.
Even the show breeders were secretive about how they were breeding,
They didn’t want competitors to know how they were producing a certain look.
Records were kept but since there was no DNA back then,
Who’s to say what other type of dogs were being used together.
There are strong feeling that a Maltese was use for it long silky coat texture.

The old books written talks about white dogs with spotty patches of gray were produce but never went to far
As the Show era already had a white dog the Maltese.

Along with the founding dogs strongly stated as the main dogs.
The Clydesdale / Paisley and Old english black and tan.
There were other dogs also thought to be in the breed.
Ones being the Skye since Kershaw's Kitty a Sky was bred to Swift's Old Crab, a cross-bred Scotch Terrier
Skye Terrier produced colors ranging in the chocolate, fawn, white and tans,
This could also explain where the chocolate and gold colors come from.

The different colors has popped up for years.
Breeders just killed them because they were considered a flawed dog.