"Parti Yorkies" What's your opinion

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by dianaww

So do I understand this right, that Partis and biewers are the same. The same
" fault " GENE in them both. Or are they any genetic codes that are not the same?

I think they are beautiful, but I do not agree that they should be so much more expensive than a standard yorkie.

It is an many of you have same IMHO exploiting a fault for money.

My Teddy has floppy ears, and I would not of bread from him. I love him like that, BUT I know it isn't correct, and so I wouldn't of breed him at all, in the hope I got floppy ears as puppies.

Thank goodness he has got floppy ears and I didn't breed him, as he now has heart problems, that can be inherited, so a blessing that I had him " done " before I knew that.

Getting back to the point. Are there any differences at all genetically with Partis, and Biewers.

How did these " fault " first appear, as white in the coat, and then they kept breeding those with the whiter coats?

SORRY TO SOUND DIM

I guess you'll get lots of different opinions on this, my view is that Partis and Biewers are different, and I'm personally opposed to people breeding the two together, and selling them for whatever they can market them for. Biewers may (or may not) have started out Parti's, but Mr. Biewer took it a step further, and began interbreeding these dogs, he has a purpose and a goal in mind, and seemed to have a real vision for what he thought was a new breed. Another thing, many people have noted is that the personalities of the Biewers seem much different than the traditional yorkie, and many people say that the Biewer is a much mellower type of dog. I think many people don't understand that scientists have not cracked the genetic code yet, it's a very painstaking process, just the fact that a single dog has billions of bases, building blocks of the genome, and these DNA labs only look at a few hundred makes me think it will be several years before we have any real understanding of breed differences.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I guess you'll get lots of different opinions on this, my view is that Partis and Biewers are different, and I'm personally opposed to people breeding the two together, and selling them for whatever they can market them for. Biewers may (or may not) have started out Parti's, but Mr. Biewer took it a step further, and began interbreeding these dogs, he has a purpose and a goal in mind, and seemed to have a real vision for what he thought was a new breed. Another thing, many people have noted is that the personalities of the Biewers seem much different than the traditional yorkie, and many people say that the Biewer is a much mellower type of dog. I think many people don't understand that scientists have not cracked the genetic code yet, it's a very painstaking process, just the fact that a single dog has billions of bases, building blocks of the genome, and these DNA labs only look at a few hundred makes me think it will be several years before we have any real understanding of breed differences.

How much have you studied the Crownridge Parti's. She was one of the breeders who proved to the AKC these dogs were Yorkies. Her dogs all look alike as she has put her mark on her dogs.

Mr. Biewer believed they were Yorkies and in fact tried to show them as Yorkies but he was not allowed to so he went to another registry so he could go into the showring. We also will never really know what Mr. Biewer wanted as after he passed his wife got rid of all the dogs and his notes. He also sold these dogs to other breeders with very few restrictions and it does not appear that he really protected this breed. One club is now pulling Mrs. Biewer out as an expert when you can't find any pictures of her showing the dogs. You can see pictures of her holding them in staged pictures but that does not mean she is an expert and why did she get rid of the dogs after he died if she was so involved. How many breeders here that are married, is the other spouse involved?

It also has been noted in some of the other breeds that accept the Piebald that this gene makes the dogs a little more mellow.

I do agree we won't know for a long time the genetic makeup of these dogs but we won't for the Yorkies either.

[3FurryFaces]

Understandably, since we do not have a definitive genetic code for breeds or dogs yet, it will be a while to get a scientific answer - however, is there documentation somewhere for the lineage of the Biewers either written or DNA?
Just my opinion, but it seems to me that if there is such controversy, the parent clubs would want to establish historical DNA records to prevent future confusion and disagreement.
Is there any kind of documentation that original Yorkies that gave birth to the original piebald/Biewer pups were able to recreate the breeding? Or is the piebald a mutation and not a recessive trait?

[3FurryFaces]

I see that living dustmops posted some things that reply to my questions while I was writing the questions... (I am a slow typer... lol - hunt and peck method)

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

How much have you studied the Crownridge Parti's. She was one of the breeders who proved to the AKC these dogs were Yorkies. Her dogs all look alike as she has put her mark on her dogs.

Mr. Biewer believed they were Yorkies and in fact tried to show them as Yorkies but he was not allowed to so he went to another registry so he could go into the showring. We also will never really know what Mr. Biewer wanted as after he passed his wife got rid of all the dogs and his notes. He also sold these dogs to other breeders with very few restrictions and it does not appear that he really protected this breed. One club is now pulling Mrs. Biewer out as an expert when you can't find any pictures of her showing the dogs. You can see pictures of her holding them in staged pictures but that does not mean she is an expert and why did she get rid of the dogs after he died if she was so involved. How many breeders here that are married, is the other spouse involved?

It also has been noted in some of the other breeds that accept the Piebald that this gene makes the dogs a little more mellow.

I do agree we won't know for a long time the genetic makeup of these dogs but we won't for the Yorkies either.

Good summary

[3FurryFaces]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

There are several biewer clubs in the US and the breed does have a standard in place. There are also US registries open to biewers. The standard was written in their country of orgin, Germany.

Are these registries separating partis from Biewers from traditional or do they show together in the same ring, as varieties or distinctly different breeds?

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by 3FurryFaces

Understandably, since we do not have a definitive genetic code for breeds or dogs yet, it will be a while to get a scientific answer - however, is there documentation somewhere for the lineage of the Biewers either written or DNA?
Just my opinion, but it seems to me that if there is such controversy, the parent clubs would want to establish historical DNA records to prevent future confusion and disagreement.
Is there any kind of documentation that original Yorkies that gave birth to the original piebald/Biewer pups were able to recreate the breeding? Or is the piebald a mutation and not a recessive trait?

DNA profiling wasn't in existence in 1984. Biewers have only been in the US since 2003...

The history can be found all over the internet or here's a link if you would like to learn more

Biewer History

The pie bald gene is considered a recessive gene and not a mutation.

BBCA members do dna all their breeding pairs and the resulting puppies.

In my opinion the pedigree for a dog/puppy has to go back to the original pair of dogs on both sides or it is not a biewer.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by 3FurryFaces

Are these registries separating partis from Biewers from traditional or do they show together in the same ring, as varieties or distinctly different breeds?

Parti's are not allowed to be shown in confirmation.

Biewers are shown as a bred of their own in the toy class. In group they compete against other toy breeds....such as a standard yorkie.

I guess I didn't answer the registry question. Three generation pedigrees must be provided to register a biewer with any of the American Biewer Registries and I know BBIR will not register a parti yorkie.

[3FurryFaces]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

DNA profiling wasn't in existence in 1984. Biewers have only been in the US since 2003...

The history can be found all over the internet or here's a link if you would like to learn more

Biewer History

The pie bald gene is considered a recessive gene and not a mutation.

BBCA members do dna all their breeding pairs and the resulting puppies.

In my opinion the pedigree for a dog/puppy has to go back to the original pair of dogs on both sides or it is not a biewer.

Do all of the registries that recognize the Biewers have the same standard and classification?

What are BBCA? BBIA?

As for DNA, I am aware that its use is limited since our existing breeds predate DNA, however, to provide scientific data about the lineage and heritage of our dogs, aren't most registries, clubs, etc encouraging DNA documenting to add a degree of validity and accountability to our pedigrees? Not just Yorkies...

[bchgirl]

I really didn't provide you with a good explaination on showing...let me try again.

Biewers may be shown in these circuits. NAKC, IABCA, and ARBA. While some of these also include AKC recognized breeds, they also include "rare" breeds. The biewer is considered a rare breed. You provide your pedigree and/or acceptable registry information which insures your dog is a biewer. Parti yorkies are not a considered a rare breed in these venues and their coloring is a disqualification by the parent club YTCA and prevents them from showing in confirmation events.

Parti's do not have a standard. Biewers have a specific standard for color placement.

Hope that makes it a little clearer.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by 3FurryFaces

Do all of the registries that recognize the Biewers have the same standard and classification?

What are BBCA? BBIA?

As for DNA, I am aware that its use is limited since our existing breeds predate DNA, however, to provide scientific data about the lineage and heritage of our dogs, aren't most registries, clubs, etc encouraging DNA documenting to add a degree of validity and accountability to our pedigrees? Not just Yorkies...

BBCA - Biewer Breed Club of America
BBRI - is a registry Biewer Breed Registry International. It is a seperate entity from the breed club and accepts any registration for a biewer with a foreign pedigree of at least 3 generations. Most are far more detailed than 3.If you are breeding and want to register a litter...dna profling must be done on the breeding pair and the resulting puppies.

I believe you may be mistaken that all registries require dna profiling. It is not mandatory by AKC unless you have a frequently used sire...or if there a possible multipled sired litter.

[dianaww]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

This is only my opinion they are the same dog. I do not believe it is a fault. Not all Biewers are more expensive than Yorkies. I cannot speak for Parti's as I have not followed what their average cost is.

Maybe from wolves...if you pick up books on genetics in our dogs many of these colorations came from wolves. It is very complex and I don't have the answers on why the piebald gene shows up in so many different breeds. We would have had to DNA dogs for the last 1000 years to have that answer. I also cannot answer your question on the difference because I have never seen the DNA markers on the Parti's. AKC did and that is why they are accepted only for registration with AKC and not for show. I have only seen DNA on Biewers.

You really need to read genetics on dogs before you can start saying people are only breeding for $$$ when it comes to the Parti's and the Biewers. You might want to goggle piebald gene in dogs.

You have taken what I have said out of context. It is clear from looking at the price that Biewers and Parti's in most cases cost more money.

When I say " Fault " I do not mean it in a nasty way, it is a FAULT in the sense, that the colour/s have been bred into them, as it is prefered by some. The standard Yorkie, has no white in it. Maybe the odd one or two hairs.

When I asked about the Genes it was as someone else has mentioned a particular gene, so I was interested.

Everything I said was said respectfully I am sorry you seem upset by it, it wasn't meant to cause that at all.

[3FurryFaces]

Thank you for the link. I did go to the BBCA website, which does clarify quite a bit. And as I questioned, they are doing DNA recording to establish a history going forward.
As for requiring DNA, I believe I said they, meaning the AKC and some other registries, encourage it . I did not say require.
Just my opinion, but I believe it will only help to provide legitimacy, going forward, for all our dogs of all breeds.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by dianaww

You have taken what I have said out of context. It is clear from looking at the price that Biewers and Parti's in most cases cost more money.

When I say " Fault " I do not mean it in a nasty way, it is a FAULT in the sense, that the colour/s have been bred into them, as it is prefered by some. The standard Yorkie, has no white in it. Maybe the odd one or two hairs.

When I asked about the Genes it was as someone else has mentioned a particular gene, so I was interested.

Everything I said was said respectfully I am sorry you seem upset by it, it wasn't meant to cause that at all.

HaHa..sorry but been battling the Biewer battle for over 5 years.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by dianaww

You have taken what I have said out of context. It is clear from looking at the price that Biewers and Parti's in most cases cost more money.

When I say " Fault " I do not mean it in a nasty way, it is a FAULT in the sense, that the colour/s have been bred into them, as it is prefered by some. The standard Yorkie, has no white in it. Maybe the odd one or two hairs.

When I asked about the Genes it was as someone else has mentioned a particular gene, so I was interested.

Everything I said was said respectfully I am sorry you seem upset by it, it wasn't meant to cause that at all.

The word "fault" was applied to parti yorkies by the YTCA. The coloring of a parti is a color fault. It goes against the standard set by YTCA.

A biewer's coloring is not a fault...it is exactly how the dogs are supposed to be.

The white on both dogs is the result of a the recessive pie bald gene. The color placement on a biewer is another gene entirely. I've read the irish spotting gene...but some argue that also.