you know that post made a lot of sense to me, i did have a harder time finding a reputable breeder and the breeders i found were in the KC star classifieds (stupid i know) i didn't know then where to look or how to find a good breeder and i also didn't have YT to go off of...when i first came on here, i had already put a down payment on Sadie, and by the time i started to get mixed feelings about the breeder, i honestly just wanted to bring that baby home and keep her safe with me...and i've done that and feel great about it. i'll go out on a limb her and be open and honest. i didn't trust everything about Marvin and i still don't, i do think he's a nice man who is doing this for the right reasons, but i don't think he's educated enough to do it the right way. i don't think he understands the breeds well and i don't think he's very responsible with his breeding and his dogs. (okay kill me now i just admitted it) this whole time i've felt that this breeder wasn't the smartest tool in the shed, but i have stood up for him too because i don't think he is intentionally a bad breeder, i honestly think he's trying his best and doesn't have the smarts to back it up. he just got his MO license to breed and have a kennel, so now he'll have unannounced inspection 4 times a year, a step in the right direction for him to learn to do this better, and a good step to make sure that MO knows that he is practicing better breeding.

i guess what you all have to realize is that this is Missouri. it's not like other states, there are lots of very very wonderful and kind people here who would never intentionally hurt a dog and do love the animals they breed/sell, but the people in the boot hill of MO sometimes have a few screws loose or sometimes aren't the most educated of folks and they don't really know any better.

also a lot of times i've seen bad breeders that are amish. these people honestly probably don't really know any different either. the people like this are farmers, they are used to breeding horses and cattle for sale, i know dogs are a very different thing to all of us, but not to some of these people. they are used to USDA laws about breeding and they follow the bare minumum with those laws and they honestly think that's all they should do, they are so used to the farming life that dog breeding to them is the same thing. does this make them bad people NO, but bad breeder SURE IT DOES.

i just wanted to clear up a little misconception that all MO commercial breeders are horrible, mean, and terrible puppy mills. some are i'm very sure of it, there are lots more than any other state. but you have to know the culture of the area and that sometimes people are unintentionally bad breeders and that others still are old timey farmers who know no other way.

hope that makes sense and i hope you don't think i'm trying to support or say this is all just okay, i'm just trying to shed a little light on the lifestyle in my home state and why a lot of bad breeders get their reputations despite the fact that they are really kindhearted and nice people

:thumbup::thumbup:

great post i would have never thought of that with the AKC knowing a dam is being bred too much, that is a ++ for them that they can better monitor that a dam doesn't get bred back to back or too often!! :thumbup::thumbup:

I do understand exactly what you are saying.

But....think about that last sentence. How is it that a bad breeder is a kindhearted, nice person?

I honestly need you to help me grasp that one.

Dear God...I haven't seen that one. :(:(:(:( Death row inmates are treated FAR FAR better than these innocent helpless abused dogs.

I couldn't watch the whole video but will try when I get home :( and put it on my website. (I'll be really depressed but this has to be out there as much as possible)

This is the kind of thing that needs to be on NATIONAL TV so people can see the pain and suffering and why it is such a big disgusting EVIL problem here.

I forced myself to watch many videos thru the years regarding this problem so that when I do open my mouth I can say with all honesty that Dogs are being TORTURED right under our noses......but still get sick and feel helpless.

Why does our country let this happen ? How can these sub-humans get away with this?

I'll never wrap my head around it - never.

I see what your saying Rachel, the Minonite lady that bred Stormy, was VERY nice on the telephone. She seemed a bit concerned that my dog was so ill and even offered to give me another pup. But in my opinon they are going to be nice because they are trying to get your money. Just because your a nice person doesn't mean your a good person. I have lots of "friends" that are nice to me, they do bad things and I choose not to involve myself with those types of people. If they want to be ignorant to the proper methods of breeding that is their fault. If you want to breed you should educate yourself not just dive in because you can.

what i mean by that is that sometimes a bad breeder is bad at it because they aren't smart enough or haven't educated themselves to know the best way to breed and care for dogs. i'm NOT talking puppy millers here who knowingly mistreat animals those people have no heart. i'm talking dudes like Marvin who are honestly nice but just really truly don't have the knowledge to know any better and haven't learned the best practices and ways and means to breed properly, they are a bad breeder because they aren't educated and they think they are doing a good thing and don't have enough knowledge about the subject to do a better job or to know the difference between their way and a better way. they are still nice people and they aren't trying to scam us or hurt the animals, they really are just uniformed and uneducated about good breeding practices. that does happen sometimes and they need people to educate them about better breeding or not breeding if they don't have all the right information to do so the same as buyers need to be educated on where to get a good healthy dog and what to look for in a breeder.

hope that clarified a bit

i agree 100% that you should educate yourself before breeding and as for the mennonite woman, have you considered that she WAS nice but that she honestly didn't know any better. i mean some of those types of people are so out of touch with the rest of the world and kinda live a sheltered life that she really honestly might have not known any better at all, that happens and you really can't blame her if she didn't know any better because she grew up in a way that doesn't teach her to be more educated about things, they are taught to follow their parents and leaders and not to go out and learn things on their own, just the culture. it's like that for some farmers here in good ol' MO, they don't realize there is a wealth of knowledge in libraries and on the internet, they just follow in the footsteps of their parents and grandparents and never break the cycle to learn something new on their own.

but i sure wish more people would research and learn things on their own, they would make a lot less mistakes and do themselves and us all a huge favor!!

Have to agree here. My oldest Chanel came from a bad breeder. This was years ago and I was stupid. She was SO nice....tried to be informative and it was all an act.

When Chanel started having severe diarrhea, I called her before I went to the vet.....(at the time I didn't know WHAT she had)... but knew I had a sick little puppy. She claimed it was the stress of a new home - NOT ! IF I had believed her and some people would have - I'd have lost my beautiful Chanel.

We rushed Chanel to the vet - found out it was coccidia & I called her again. She claimed she'd never heard of it & hung up the phone. I wasn't rude at all - I was worried sick and wanted her to know her other puppies may be at risk.

This so called 'breeder' would have rather let my puppy DIE than admit she had a problem. :mad: If my husband and I had believed her when she said it was normal for a puppy to act that sick when going to a new home - I wouldn't be here talking about it.

The reason I posted this is to say - a caring breeder would tell you what could be happening and also - to get to the Vet asap. A bad breeder will wash their hands of you once they have your money.

ps. Yes I plastered her name all over the net. Not because Chanel was sick but because of the way she handled it.

It's very possible she may not know any better. But unless you are mentally ill, I don't know how ANY person can honestly believe that breeding hundreds of dogs in small cages is okay. I am sure if any normal person would see a commerical puppy mill would be shocked and disturbed! I know it shocks me when I see this type of stuff. You really have to have LOTS of screws missing in your head to think it is okay to have an animal reproduce over and over again and HAVE sick dogs.

This lady had put Stormy had bad knees on her papers, but why keep breeding the mom and dad if you were getting dogs with bad knees? Doesn't make sense. Yes they probably are nice humans, but personally if you can treat animals this way ,even if you know or don't know any better it is all the same. You have to be sick to think it is okay or to believe you are not harming them.

I'm glad your girl is okay!

yeah i really wasn't addressing puppy mills when i mention not knowing any better, it'd be pretty darn hard to not realize that caging up a ton of puppies into one single cage with poop and mange all around them is not exactly a good thing to do :mad::mad:

the ignorance comments are more for the back yard breeder and smaller operations from people that think they are smart enough to breed dogs because they raise cattle or something like that

inhumane treatment of animals is just careless and a lack of heart because even crazy people know better than to hurt an innocent and helpless creature.

What about those who have been educated and have the knowledge on the "right" way to do things, but still don't do them? Your post makes me think of this question...

I was just saying that the breeder who Stormy came from was a nice lady and you said she may of not known better so I was just explaining how couldn't she, even if she did, she couldn't possibly think it was okay to breed dogs and so many dogs the way she is doing it even if she is nice.

BYB and others who you are speaking of now, yes it may be true they don't know better. But I still don't feel bad for them because I think if your going to do something you should do it right and that means do EVERYTHING you can to make an educated decision, if they can't figure out the right way to do it, then they don't deserve to do it, it is there own fault.

she sounds like someone who knew that they were doing wrong and chose not to care instead...doesn't sound like someone without education, UNLESS she never learned about genetics in which case she wouldn't have a clue that breeding two dogs together and getting bad knees will continue to happen when breeding those same dogs together. some people honestly don't understand anything about genetics and those people really really shouldn't mess with it.

i don't really think Amish or Mennonite people have a "real" education like our kids of today. they go to the Amish school and i'm not really sure they are taught the same math and sciences we are taught to know.

* side note: we have a ton of Amish and Mennonite people in northwest MO and southern IA so i'm quite familiar with the fact that the might have a few screws loose do to inbreeding and such, it's more the Amish ones that are closely inbred (they haven't figured out breeding themselves so what makes us think they'd be very good at breeding dogs:confused:) LOL sorry