Purchasing them is being part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Just my opinion of course.

Yes, the laws suck...or the lack thereof.

Good breeders really have enough to do, don't they? The pet buyer should be the one responsible for putting mills out of business, let not throw another responsibility on the good breeder. The good breeder isn't really breeding to supply the public with pets; they really feel like they have something to offer the breed. If all you want is a pet, there are plenty of them out there already. I'm not against commercial breeding, it's just that in order to do it properly, they would have to charge way more than what the public wants to pay for a dog. As long as people see cheap dogs as "good deals" millers will stay in business.

All of the things that I have learned are from sitting back and listening and adsorbing what is being written and said about all of these issues. It is hard to sit back and not take them all in but there are so many that are dying we cannot possibly save them all. It is just a very sad situation with not enough education being done or the education falling upon deaf ears. I have said it a millions time~if the general public knew what was really going on and took the time to educate themselves they would be holding flaming touches in front of every pet shop, puppymill and mill auction in this country. Sadly it is much easier to turn your head and continue to shop pet shops and bybers to get a quick puppy fix. If people knew that dogs were stuffed into gas chambers and gassed to death they would be horrified! If they knew "how" millers PTS their unwanted dog they would be speechless. If people knew that sick puppies are routinely tossed into the trash bins at pet shops they would NEVER step foot inside a pet shop. But unfortunetly, there are so many that are unwilling to accept this as reality in the puppy "business". :mad:

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

you nailed it. That's why so many people do buy and it's totally understandable. You see an animal in need and you want to help - but there's a bigger picture.

The big picture is the hard one. Do you walk away and NOT put money in their pockets... or do you contribute even with good intentions ? Me personally - I choose not to contribute and never go in a store that sells dogs. Pet Land is my biggest boycott. (I got asked to leave the only one I ever stepped foot in) and am proud of it ! :D:D:D

and what you said about our 'system' is right on. We don't have one that serves the need of the dogs. Too many people are making money and of course the government gets their cut. Things are getting better but have a long LONG way to to.

I'm from Canada but don't know the laws....sounds like the U.S. could learn a few things from the north.

I don't think it is solely the breeders responsibility, I think it is the governments though. It should be illegal to purchase a puppy from anyone except a government registered and monitored breeder. No way should it be legal to sell pups or any large animal in stores. I am sure all reputable breeders would be happy to be on that list. Anyone else selling a pup then is charged.

Like I said earlier, children are not bred in mills and sold in stores. Why doesn't the government have laws for animals...oh I have a quote for this..

"Ever occur to you why some of us can be this much concerned with animals suffering? Because government is not. Why not? Animals don't vote." ~author unknownl

Once again Nancy, wonderful post. :thumbup:

If you had truly researched rescue, you would have realized that your misconceptions about only older males with health and behavioral issues being available were wrong. Rescues get many wonderful, healthy, beautiful dogs who were turned over through no fault of their own. The top reasons dogs are turned into shelters are moving, landlord issues, cost of ownership and no time for the dog.

Rescues do get puppies. Pregnant females are regularly turned in or confiscated. With Missouri being the Puppymill Capital of the US, I would expect a higher than normal number of pregnant females to end up in shelters and private rescues.

If you had actually contacted a rescue, you would have been told that the young, adoptable dogs go quickly so anyone who is interested should fill out an application beforehand.

As far as health issues, what makes you think that a puppy from an APRI kennel who does no health testing will be healthier than a rescue? You probably aren't aware that rescues thoroughly vet all the dogs they take in and take care of any necessary health problems like luxating patellas before they are adopted out.

This is such a good conversation but have to get some housework done LOL. I think the only reason it isn't so bad here is because we only have 30 million people to police!! We do have pet stores that sell pets but so many of these come from family breeders. The bigger stores go to the homes check the family and also provide you with all the info on the parents of the pups and if local you can go there and see them. There are still bad breeders here no doubt but we just don't have the population to support a huge puppy mill system.

Thanks for the conversation all, have a great day!

No conflict at all. We breed for ourselves first, looking for our next Champion to add to our breeding program. Not every litter produces that dog that is Champion and breeding material, those are the pups we place in pet homes. Our primary objective is not to sell puppies. As far as advertising, most of us don't have to, we have waiting lists of prescreened families. And as you said, most people don't want to wait, so they're going to buy from a Puppy Mill or BYBer anyway. The people that have taken the time to educate themselves, have researched are those that have obtained information on the breeders to seek out and know how to contact them. Will we ever put Puppy Mills out of business, I don't think so. The laws that have been put in place can be easily circumvented by Puppy Mills, they breed on a large scale and have the financial means to pay all the fees and fines.

Think about it, reading the numberous posts on YT......Looking for a puppy.....so, much info on here on how to go about it, where to go, who are the reputable breeders, they just don't want to take the time and want the puppy yesterday. If most would realize when they're looking on the internet and visiting this breeder and that breeder (whoever they may be) all 8 to 12 week puppies are adorable.....which one wouldn't grab your heart.....and you can't wait to get it home.

Canada has a wonderful system in place....They've come down to California and spoke to various government officials on how and why it works.....California has chosen not to listen.

Love Love Love~Beatles lyric
 

i very much appreciate your approach here, this comment came across to me as sincere, kind and honest all the same time.

i know you are very passionate about stopping puppy mills and i hope someday that i might even be able to join you in that cause. i don't blame you one bit for wanting to stop them, they are horrible and terrible things, but i also want others to realize that while i might be a bit naive and new to the world of buying puppies, i'm not trying to support puppy mills. i have learned a lot from you all on YT and i have also had times that i felt i did nothing more than get stressed out over a little too much drama. it goes both ways, learn something, get treated badly, learn something else from another person. take the good with the bad. i did want to mention this though about educating people and how to come across to get your point to be taken...

as nancy has done with this post, i think all posts and informative comments should be much the same:

i'm sure glad for all the good information and without YT there are plenty of things i wouldn't have known about yorkies. i do appreciate that very much and i also love the kindness that some people have shown on here with sending clothing for nothing and being so sweet. i just hope that over time they will learn that i'm not a bad person and i only strike back when my tail gets stepped on :) if someone wants to give information more power to them, but when it's not presented as a take it or leave or not presented kindly to me, i am probably going to get offended and naturally get a little defensive rather than hear them out...it's pure human nature.

when educating someone, if the information is presented in a kind, encouraging, way it is always absorbed and taken into consideration, when info is presented in a condescending or somewhat heated or a little harsh manner, even when it's not intended to be that way, if it sounds that way to the reader or hearer, it makes the person defensive, shut down, close off, and not want to hear one more word that the person with the info has to say.

it's the same way with my husband, if i tell him that he needs to change something and i'm coming at him with my claws out, he won't listen to my concerns or feelings he'll shut down emotionally and go into defensive mode (which in turn pisses me off the same way my defensiveness pisses you guys off)

if i go at it with love and kindness he always sees the need for the change and takes my suggestion to heart and actually tries to please me and do what i asked of him in some form, or at least wants to discuss the matter if he doesn't agree without lashing back out at me.

i just want us all to learn to educate each other and help each other out in a little bit more tactful manner, i know that most of you have been very tactful from the beginning, but if people say that was a little harsh, there is a reason they have said that, so don't go on the defensive back at them and tell them that you are only being honest with them when they feel attacked. if someone gets defensive and feels beaten up, apologize and try to rephrase what you meant to say so they are more willing to accept it. otherwise you create a rift between your info and their brain and they will never open up to it and learn what you so much desire for them to learn.

tactfulness goes a long way, especially on a forum that you cannot see or hear people when they talk, it's all reading...so re read your posts and make sure what is said comes across kindly and cannot be taken the wrong way...

we deal with this all the time in our jobs with email and texting as the new way to communicate. it's wonderful how fast and easy and convenient it is to email or text, but we're missing the key link to communication, the non verbal behavior of the person speaking and the inflections and tone of voice, it's hard to tell sometimes how a person is sounding when you read their thoughts rather than hear them speak their mind.

this has all been a big dramatic mess that shouldn't have ever happened, but i hope the lessons learned are not only that puppy mills suck and shouldn't be supported (which i will not be by registering APRI) but that also we have to learn some kindness on YT and talk to each other with a little more tact in order to get the point across and to actually get through to a person we desperately want to educate

I don't think we want the Government's hands in anymore down here. However, YTCA and other breed clubs have laws/rules/code of conduct and ethics in place to monitor their members......Much of it is self-regulated and you either have the passion to do it right for the good of the breed or you don't and breed for $$$$$$.

good to know more about you, sorry for the nasty post, i was getting a bit overwhelmed...since we are mostly ladies here i'll just throw out some honesty myself, i got my nice little gift today...;) so i do apologize for getting defensive again and for being a pain in the butt...i'm a real firecracker when my hormones take off on me and i sure as heck don't mean to be, ask my DH, he's dealt with me for two years, i'm hard to handle when i get my hormones screwed up and today just happened to be that day and you guys were in the path of the flying bullets...

I'm really sorry!! :(

Nothing to be sorry about......What you have posted about being careful how you post has been discussed many a time on YT.....discussed!!!!! more like argued. What everyone has come to realize (and sorry you are new and just caught blindsided) there are so many of us long time members that are just passionate about yorkies and animals, it's just the way it is. As time goes on you'll be one of those members too.....mark my word. I get the feeling you're a new member that will be around for a long time. You can always get a feel for those that join for their personal agenda.

We Must Not Purchase from Puppy Mills
 

I haven't been on in weeks but knowing about this thread, I feel those that have not seen it with their own eyes might need some visuals.

Indiana Amish Puppy Mill on Yahoo! Video

AKC registration is so important if you are getting a pet and don't let them talk you out of it. AKC would see if the dam was being bred over and over again and their membership would be revoked and have to register with a registry that will take anyone.

We just had an occasion with birth defects after inbreeding. Now if the pedigree was offered for you to see, you would know if there was such a thing going on within this breeders home or kennel.

Nothing is perfect but AKC is by far the best registry along with the CKC (canadian kennel club)

you know that post made a lot of sense to me, i did have a harder time finding a reputable breeder and the breeders i found were in the KC star classifieds (stupid i know) i didn't know then where to look or how to find a good breeder and i also didn't have YT to go off of...when i first came on here, i had already put a down payment on Sadie, and by the time i started to get mixed feelings about the breeder, i honestly just wanted to bring that baby home and keep her safe with me...and i've done that and feel great about it. i'll go out on a limb her and be open and honest. i didn't trust everything about Marvin and i still don't, i do think he's a nice man who is doing this for the right reasons, but i don't think he's educated enough to do it the right way. i don't think he understands the breeds well and i don't think he's very responsible with his breeding and his dogs. (okay kill me now i just admitted it) this whole time i've felt that this breeder wasn't the smartest tool in the shed, but i have stood up for him too because i don't think he is intentionally a bad breeder, i honestly think he's trying his best and doesn't have the smarts to back it up. he just got his MO license to breed and have a kennel, so now he'll have unannounced inspection 4 times a year, a step in the right direction for him to learn to do this better, and a good step to make sure that MO knows that he is practicing better breeding.

i guess what you all have to realize is that this is Missouri. it's not like other states, there are lots of very very wonderful and kind people here who would never intentionally hurt a dog and do love the animals they breed/sell, but the people in the boot hill of MO sometimes have a few screws loose or sometimes aren't the most educated of folks and they don't really know any better.

also a lot of times i've seen bad breeders that are amish. these people honestly probably don't really know any different either. the people like this are farmers, they are used to breeding horses and cattle for sale, i know dogs are a very different thing to all of us, but not to some of these people. they are used to USDA laws about breeding and they follow the bare minumum with those laws and they honestly think that's all they should do, they are so used to the farming life that dog breeding to them is the same thing. does this make them bad people NO, but bad breeder SURE IT DOES.

i just wanted to clear up a little misconception that all MO commercial breeders are horrible, mean, and terrible puppy mills. some are i'm very sure of it, there are lots more than any other state. but you have to know the culture of the area and that sometimes people are unintentionally bad breeders and that others still are old timey farmers who know no other way.

hope that makes sense and i hope you don't think i'm trying to support or say this is all just okay, i'm just trying to shed a little light on the lifestyle in my home state and why a lot of bad breeders get their reputations despite the fact that they are really kindhearted and nice people

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great post i would have never thought of that with the AKC knowing a dam is being bred too much, that is a ++ for them that they can better monitor that a dam doesn't get bred back to back or too often!! :thumbup::thumbup:

I do understand exactly what you are saying.

But....think about that last sentence. How is it that a bad breeder is a kindhearted, nice person?

I honestly need you to help me grasp that one.

Dear God...I haven't seen that one. :(:(:(:( Death row inmates are treated FAR FAR better than these innocent helpless abused dogs.

I couldn't watch the whole video but will try when I get home :( and put it on my website. (I'll be really depressed but this has to be out there as much as possible)

This is the kind of thing that needs to be on NATIONAL TV so people can see the pain and suffering and why it is such a big disgusting EVIL problem here.

I forced myself to watch many videos thru the years regarding this problem so that when I do open my mouth I can say with all honesty that Dogs are being TORTURED right under our noses......but still get sick and feel helpless.

Why does our country let this happen ? How can these sub-humans get away with this?

I'll never wrap my head around it - never.

I see what your saying Rachel, the Minonite lady that bred Stormy, was VERY nice on the telephone. She seemed a bit concerned that my dog was so ill and even offered to give me another pup. But in my opinon they are going to be nice because they are trying to get your money. Just because your a nice person doesn't mean your a good person. I have lots of "friends" that are nice to me, they do bad things and I choose not to involve myself with those types of people. If they want to be ignorant to the proper methods of breeding that is their fault. If you want to breed you should educate yourself not just dive in because you can.

what i mean by that is that sometimes a bad breeder is bad at it because they aren't smart enough or haven't educated themselves to know the best way to breed and care for dogs. i'm NOT talking puppy millers here who knowingly mistreat animals those people have no heart. i'm talking dudes like Marvin who are honestly nice but just really truly don't have the knowledge to know any better and haven't learned the best practices and ways and means to breed properly, they are a bad breeder because they aren't educated and they think they are doing a good thing and don't have enough knowledge about the subject to do a better job or to know the difference between their way and a better way. they are still nice people and they aren't trying to scam us or hurt the animals, they really are just uniformed and uneducated about good breeding practices. that does happen sometimes and they need people to educate them about better breeding or not breeding if they don't have all the right information to do so the same as buyers need to be educated on where to get a good healthy dog and what to look for in a breeder.

hope that clarified a bit

i agree 100% that you should educate yourself before breeding and as for the mennonite woman, have you considered that she WAS nice but that she honestly didn't know any better. i mean some of those types of people are so out of touch with the rest of the world and kinda live a sheltered life that she really honestly might have not known any better at all, that happens and you really can't blame her if she didn't know any better because she grew up in a way that doesn't teach her to be more educated about things, they are taught to follow their parents and leaders and not to go out and learn things on their own, just the culture. it's like that for some farmers here in good ol' MO, they don't realize there is a wealth of knowledge in libraries and on the internet, they just follow in the footsteps of their parents and grandparents and never break the cycle to learn something new on their own.

but i sure wish more people would research and learn things on their own, they would make a lot less mistakes and do themselves and us all a huge favor!!

Have to agree here. My oldest Chanel came from a bad breeder. This was years ago and I was stupid. She was SO nice....tried to be informative and it was all an act.

When Chanel started having severe diarrhea, I called her before I went to the vet.....(at the time I didn't know WHAT she had)... but knew I had a sick little puppy. She claimed it was the stress of a new home - NOT ! IF I had believed her and some people would have - I'd have lost my beautiful Chanel.

We rushed Chanel to the vet - found out it was coccidia & I called her again. She claimed she'd never heard of it & hung up the phone. I wasn't rude at all - I was worried sick and wanted her to know her other puppies may be at risk.

This so called 'breeder' would have rather let my puppy DIE than admit she had a problem. :mad: If my husband and I had believed her when she said it was normal for a puppy to act that sick when going to a new home - I wouldn't be here talking about it.

The reason I posted this is to say - a caring breeder would tell you what could be happening and also - to get to the Vet asap. A bad breeder will wash their hands of you once they have your money.

ps. Yes I plastered her name all over the net. Not because Chanel was sick but because of the way she handled it.

It's very possible she may not know any better. But unless you are mentally ill, I don't know how ANY person can honestly believe that breeding hundreds of dogs in small cages is okay. I am sure if any normal person would see a commerical puppy mill would be shocked and disturbed! I know it shocks me when I see this type of stuff. You really have to have LOTS of screws missing in your head to think it is okay to have an animal reproduce over and over again and HAVE sick dogs.

This lady had put Stormy had bad knees on her papers, but why keep breeding the mom and dad if you were getting dogs with bad knees? Doesn't make sense. Yes they probably are nice humans, but personally if you can treat animals this way ,even if you know or don't know any better it is all the same. You have to be sick to think it is okay or to believe you are not harming them.

I'm glad your girl is okay!

yeah i really wasn't addressing puppy mills when i mention not knowing any better, it'd be pretty darn hard to not realize that caging up a ton of puppies into one single cage with poop and mange all around them is not exactly a good thing to do :mad::mad:

the ignorance comments are more for the back yard breeder and smaller operations from people that think they are smart enough to breed dogs because they raise cattle or something like that

inhumane treatment of animals is just careless and a lack of heart because even crazy people know better than to hurt an innocent and helpless creature.

What about those who have been educated and have the knowledge on the "right" way to do things, but still don't do them? Your post makes me think of this question...

I was just saying that the breeder who Stormy came from was a nice lady and you said she may of not known better so I was just explaining how couldn't she, even if she did, she couldn't possibly think it was okay to breed dogs and so many dogs the way she is doing it even if she is nice.

BYB and others who you are speaking of now, yes it may be true they don't know better. But I still don't feel bad for them because I think if your going to do something you should do it right and that means do EVERYTHING you can to make an educated decision, if they can't figure out the right way to do it, then they don't deserve to do it, it is there own fault.

she sounds like someone who knew that they were doing wrong and chose not to care instead...doesn't sound like someone without education, UNLESS she never learned about genetics in which case she wouldn't have a clue that breeding two dogs together and getting bad knees will continue to happen when breeding those same dogs together. some people honestly don't understand anything about genetics and those people really really shouldn't mess with it.

i don't really think Amish or Mennonite people have a "real" education like our kids of today. they go to the Amish school and i'm not really sure they are taught the same math and sciences we are taught to know.

* side note: we have a ton of Amish and Mennonite people in northwest MO and southern IA so i'm quite familiar with the fact that the might have a few screws loose do to inbreeding and such, it's more the Amish ones that are closely inbred (they haven't figured out breeding themselves so what makes us think they'd be very good at breeding dogs:confused:) LOL sorry