I don't believe anyone said to stop posting? Just find it amusing that it's still ongoing. Actually, amuzing probably isn't the right word. :)

I wasn't specifically addressing you- there have been several posts expressing incredulity that this thread is still going. It's still going because it's an open thread that people apparently still have something to say on.:) I would hate for someone to feel silly for posting on a thread that they have every right to post on.:) Sometimes I've felt like a topic has been beaten to death but other's don't agree so it really makes no difference how I feel about it. In those instances, I just don't read the thread any longer.

Now I will stay out of it because I'm taking it OT as bad as anyone.

well, it's still going because you posted on it this morning! :p

the best way for a thread to die is to ignore it. (if you WANT a thread to die for whatever reason)

i don't really mind if a thread keeps going unless for some reason i am really offended or annoyed by a thread. :p (which is really rare for me)

i would say though, if i didn't respond to this thread early on, then i probably would NEVER respond on this thread. because it is too long to follow. but since i've been here since the beginning, that's why i still follow it.

i know that there are people who do not post on a thread, but they continue to read all the posts.

sometimes it's funny when they simply post this --->:2popkorn:

my head would be spinning too if i read this thread this morning!

from personal experience, i know that breeders are very nice and helpful to me when i asked for advice about the possibility of breeding my small yorkie.

i think it's because the way i approach it. i was genuinely curious about the possibilities and willing to listen to the advice given to me.

i would say that if the breeder give someone a rude response, it's most likely because the breeder got a bad vibe from the person asking.

i emailed, called breeders, talked to my vet, and posted a thread here when i had a question about it. NO ONE, not a single breeder responded to me negatively. everyone offered their opinion to me very nicely. and i am very appreciative of all the people who took time to answer my question.

so there is always two sides of the story i guess. but i still think they key is education. i truly believe that there is not enough information offered regarding breeding smaller yorkies. it's fine if breeders think it's a bad idea, but there is simply not enough evidence/information offered to show that it is indeed a bad idea. (the only person that offered any insight as to reasons WHY it is a bad idea is wookie man. ONE person offered to explain reasons why it's a bad idea!?!?!?!ONE person!?! in a thread this long!? the rest simply says "IT'S a BAD idea!" well, that's hardly convincing enough for ANYONE.

Misty, I agree with this completely. Usually when people contact me and the first thing they say is that they want a 'teacup' or 'miniature' Yorkie, I know they don't know the breed. Often these same folks have small kids, too and haven't considered the injury risk to the pup. The last 'tiny' I placed was about a year ago. The lady and I had several phone calls, exchanged e-mails with photos, etc. before I agreed to place the pup. Let me tell you, when she first saw the pup in person she was shocked at how small she really was. Mind you, this was a small pup from standard parents (est. adult wt. 3 1/2- 4 pds.) and not an ultra tiny. So those people that think they want one of these very small dogs many times are in love with the IDEA of having one and don't really know what they're getting into. So, to me, breeding them down to 1 1/2 to 3 pounds is ridiculous and, in many cases, is a tragedy just waiting to happen.

I'm really surprised this thread has stayed open as most on this subject have gotten closed. Hopefully, some info has come out of it that will make people think twice before buying into the notion of these ultra-tiny pups. One good thing that came from this thread is that it provoked the other thread about the REAL difference between a show dog and a pet.

I guess many of us breeders are just assuming that people should know the dangers of breeding small females. The biggest danger is that the pregnancy will result in a c-section or a ruptured uterus, both of which can lead to the death of the momma dog and her unborn babies. Just this week in the Breeders Section two breeders are grieving the loss of their momma dogs that died during labor. One had a ruptured uterus and died at the vets while undergoing surgery. The other had been in labor awhile with a mispositioned baby and died during the c-section. Now we don't know the sizes of the females or if they died from the anesthesia, blood loss or shock but whatever the reason it was related to the pregnancy. Females over 5 lbs can still have these problems but it occurs most often in the small females so why take the risk if you really love your baby. It is stressful enough just watching and worrying when the bigger females have babies. I can't imagine a 3 lb female having babies. When you breed them that tiny you know from the beginning you are putting them at risk.

As for the original title of this thread, The Difference Between A Show Dog and A Pet, ideally there should be not difference except people that show their dogs have a passion for the breed and they have spend years growing a coat and training their dog. They have selectively bred dogs that, in their eyes, are perfect specimens of the breed and they are seeking approval from judges that they are in fact going in the right direction. A show dog is a loving pet but not all pets can be show dogs. Sometimes there is a huge difference in looks between a show quality yorkie and pet quality yorkie but that is a whole different subject so I won't go there.

thank you for answering my question. you have been answering so many of my questions on different threads lately. thank you so much. :D i appreciate you taking that time to answer the questions even though you probably have answered same questions over and over many times in this forum.

i know that my posts in this thread wasn't really that related to the original post. i just wanted to see people offer explanation when they post about how they are very against breeding tiny dogs.

i think i need to start my own thread if i am looking for specific answers since this thread is not really about the question i am posing.

I guess the idea for me that it endangers the life of the mother, is enough for me. Just because the mother is tiny, it doesn't mean that her offspring will be tiny. I think some people have also suggested that most people are ill prepared to take care of tinies and what that care entails. Yorkies are fearless no matter what that size, and you can't allow tinies the freedom you do a normal size dog. They don't understand that jumping off a three-foot couch is dangerous because their brain tells them they are much bigger. I think you may be looking for specific answers on how this exactly harms the mother, and many of the people who have answered this thread are non breeders, and don't really have access to good breeding books, so that we can't answer your question in detail.

Woogie man gave these answers to the dangers to the mother's health specifically.

There may be many more reasons, on how exactly this risks the mother's life, and why, but these are really good solid reasons, I'm a little confused on how many reasons you need, or if you need more people saying what Woogie man said, but I believe what he said to be true, and I have read those things before. I'm assuming you need good solid evidence and I don't think your going to find that on the web, I've found university libraries to be very good for doing real research, however if you can't link the article, people won't believe ya! Those people who breed as a business wouldn't believe any amount of scientific evidence anyway.

:2popkorn: ......

thanks nancy! :)

gosh, i must seem like such a pain in the butt!

i am convinced enough personally to not support people breeding tiny dogs.

but the reason that i keep looking for explanation is because i just can't justify trying to tell the rest of the world who are looking for tiny yorkies to STOP what they are doing without being able to offer them solid reasons why i am saying what i am saying.

it's a fact that people want tiny yorkies. i don't know just how popular the idea of a tiny yorkie is, but i am imagining that there is a pretty sizable demand for them. and in order to make a difference. i need to have the information.

i have a tiny yorkie myself, and people are always asking me where i purchased my yorkie. and i am always trying to inform them:

1. it's not a good idea to look for a tiny yorkie.

2. milu is small, but she came from parents who were both around 5 lbs. and she is supposed to be bigger.

3. tiny yorkies tend to have health problems.

4. it is essential to look for a good breeder, and most important thing is looking for a healthy yorkie, not a small yorkie.

5. there is no way to predict their adult size anyway.

(i don't usually get to tell them about #5)

i get discouraged, because most of the time, i still feel that people dont' care about all the things i've just told them, and they still want to go look for a tiny yorkie.

it may or may not make a difference if i have better information regarding breeding small yorkies when i am trying to convince the public that it's not a good idea to look for a small yorkie. but i am sure it wouldn't hurt to have the information.

i feel like i am doing a disservice to yorkies when i take milu places, because she is a small yorkies, and she is very friendly and very well behaved. so i am often asked where i got her and how much she cost. i don't support the breeder i got her from, i didn't know enough about looking for a good breeder when i purchased her and thought i had found a good breeder.

i also don't support people looking for a small yorkie.

but milu is practically a walking advertisement for small yorkies because she is so cute and so friendly, so i need to have some convincing information when people also want one 'just like her'.

Lol, I'll bet that is true, I guess that's why you want some ammunition! First of all, you won't probably ever change anyone's mind. There are lots of people that actually want good solid information, and those are the people I try to help. The rest are going to do what they want. Some people have to learn the hard way, and only experience can teach them, and that means that all the knowledge from other's experience is useless to them. When someone sees Milu they are bound to want a dog like her. I believe that you should be truthful, and tell them that her parents were 5 pounders and she turned out small, but beware of breeders who actually breed a dog Milu size, they aren't big enough to safely breed.


I suggest you understand the qualities of a good breeder, and why it's important to breed to standard, people say this, but not everyone truly understands the importance of it, and how it will effect the future of the breed. Sometimes, I think the problem with American's is we only think what's good for RIGHT NOW, and don't think in terms of the future. If you read about other breeds, their health has been seriously impacted because of breeders breeding to public demands, the mother club tries to prevent this from happening, and so standard changes very slowly to ensure some new variation doesn't have negative impact. So if a breeder ignores the advice from the mother club, I would look elsewhere. If you can encourage people to find a good breeder, a good breeder should be able to discern if the people in question could handle a tiny. As you probably know, many good breeders have them, they just don't breed them, so when they are looking for a home for one of these little things they are looking for people that can take the extra care that tinies need.

People sometimes ask me about getting a yorkie when I have Thor with me. What I tell them is that I wish Thor were at least twice his current size because I'm always worried that another dog is going to eat him for a snack. I say how careful I have to be that he doesn't jump off anything high because he could break a leg, etc. In other words, I lay it on pretty thick! After that, several people have said that they will make sure to look for a larger sized yorkie. Who knows if they actually do, but that's what seems to be effective for me.

I don't know much about the dangers of breeding tiny dogs, but what always gets to me is that a hawk could take your yorkie. I think it's such a shame that a predatory animal is put in the position of prey, because they have no instincts for that. A rabbit is wired to watch out for birds of prey, a dog is not.

I had to comment about the hawk thing. Since we had the issue where the hawk almost got Laddy it is amazing to watch him when we go out. He will stand on the edge of the porch under the roof and scan the sky before going into the yard. The other day I had him in my arms walking in the yard and he started this low growl, then began to bark. I looked up just as two hawks took off into the tree line. They may not have a natural instinct for them but they are smart enough to watch for them after being scared by one. I cannot believe people say they aren't smart like I read in another thread. :p

That is exactly what I do with Sugar!:D It usually starts with; how old is he? Followed by OMG he's fully grown?! To which I reply something like, sadly yes, poor little guy just never grew like he should have (as though it's a bad thing), followed by how careful we have to be of him being injured and how much easier it is with our larger ones.:p Sugar is just about 4 pounds (3.7- 3.8 usually) so little but not teeny weeny. Spike is just a bit over 4 pounds but for some reason it's always Sugar that people hone in on the size and make a big deal. I think it's because Sugar is really cuddly and docile and Spike has a really big personality.

Wow, great informative posts today regarding size. Very interesting, thanks.

I wonder...if when we get "The YT Library" up and running if we should have an informational thread on "why tiny yorkies are more vulnerable" and "why tiny yorkie Moms are more vulnerable"....? And, no...I'm not gonna write it :p - I'm not qualified! I could totally see myself nominating Nancy though. Or maybe Yen, since she's been gathering great info. :D