Byb

[briana smith]

Originally Posted by mypreciouspups

Again your trying to prove that if one does not show.. then they are not good.. well I beg to differ with you on the fact I have over my 20 plus years gotten dogs from show breeders.. they are all I knew.. and what made me want to breed is to NOT do what they do and pretend they are good cause they are in the show world... more crap goes on that should not be done by these people that so can pick apart some one like me.. they have scammed people and lied and gotten away with it.. sold sick puppies or aggressive yorkies.. yet they can and they get away with it.. why because they are in the show world and many are some are so intimidating no one stands up to them.. so I wanted to prove I could breed for health and have integrity and do better for a new parent then many of those kinds can...I lived it.. saw it.. and saw how one would breed a stud to another dog and then say.. and if it comes out I will call the person a lier.. for this is not allowed in the show world.. so I have sat on both sides of this fence... the breeding world and the byb world as you it is called... anne

Woah, I did not know this about yorkie breeders.
Why don't you learn to show yorkies so you can prove them all wrong. You can prove to the world that not all show breeders are show crazy like that. Your yorkies can be your pets and they can be show dogs. They can sleep in your bed at night and be out showing and proving that they are to the breed standard.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Sweet Apple

I read that, and looks like there were two pups w/probs...I'm so sorry about that, but as I said, over 20 years, there's bound to be something wrong, at some point...Apple came to me as a very healthy, clean, and adorable pup......btw, Apple came from Texas, not Arkansas...In fact, I spoke w/Jimmie, about those posts, and she told me they don't even get pups from Arkansas... But, anyway, this wasn't about fancypups, it was about bybs...But thanks for your input 'though...

Maggie

WOW, i can't believe as a responsible pet owner, you would EVER recommend a broker like this. you are VERY lucky that you got a healthy puppy and i am glad that you don't have to go through the heartaches that others have to go through. but not everyone is as lucky as you are. you DID read the link to the other thread about fancypups.com right? how can you disregard/dismiss it? "But, anyway, this wasn't about fancypups, it was about bybs..." what kind of a cop out is that!? you brought up the point that you got your dog from a broker, so that response was completely ON TOPIC.

i took a look at fancypup.com and it looks like a VERY BAD IDEA! and i would not recommend anyone to get a dog from them. where are their puppy adoption contracts? i see clearly how ANYONE can PAY for a puppy. but i don't think everyone SHOULD own a dog. perhaps a trip to the nearby human society will prove the point that there are a lot of irresponsible pet owners out there.

i had no idea about all the different things to watch out for when i was first looking for a yorkie. but now as a responsible pet owner, i know what to recommend to people when they are looking for their own special dog. and i would NEVER tell them to go to a broker!

these BYB that work with the broker you mentioned obviously do not care what ends up happening to their pups as long as someone can PAY for the pups.

[briana smith]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I think that's an interesting point, and I can see that applying to yorkies for things like LP. On the other hand, coloring is part of the standard, which I don't think has anything to do with health (other than extreme cases, like albinos). In other breeds, it's been clear that breed standards have become exaggerated and actually hurt the health of the dogs. It's also fact that extremely unhealthy dogs have won best in show at major events. I think bulldogs are a classic example of this.

I'm not saying that showing is wrong, just that it is not related to dog health at all. You can have a dog that's healthy, show quality, one but not the other, both, or neither.

It really bothers me that with all the advances we've made, the average dog's life span has not increased at all over the past few decades. I know there are a lot of theories about this - I've seen vaccination and nutrition cited - but I really wish that breed standards were about health, not looks

True, true. But wow, I didn't know that about the show dogs! All the show dogs I know were healthy.
I don't know much about color because maltese are supposed to be white but to me, if it wasn't about looks than it wouldn't technacally be considered a purebreed. Some say mixed breeds are even healthier than purebreds, but they aren't considered a breed. The definition of a purebred, is one that has a consistence look. The standard also states the breed's personality.

[Jemma]

oh boy will I ever agree that "SOME" show people are NOT all that. I was a breeder of Golden Retrievers, but showing any breed is still showing. I consider myself a reputable breeder but because I am honest I will tell you what some, so called show people well/have done.
First off, there is no "perfect" pup. Second, just because you have 2 Champ parents and all clearances, does NOT mean the entire litter is a show litter. I have never seen a entire litter all show potential. The pool genes are in the millions. If my Golden had a litter of 8, I could look at a possible 3 as show, not all 8. Any breeder that claims EVERYONE one of their pups is show is full,well, ever mind.
Never go by preliminary hip x rays at 18 months. A good breeder doesn't even breed a dog until 2 years, after a FINAL OFA rating.
Now show breeders know exactly what a Judge looks for. And EVERY dog has a fault, because as stated, there is no perfect pup.
I have witnessed one breeder/show person who brought a different dog for a hip clearance but with another dog's name. Because that one dog failed for hips and she wanted to breed her because her confirmation was excellent. Oh OK so breed a female with bad hips to produce more bad hips. I've heard other breeders have done that with eye and heart clearances. Using different dogs. When you are in the show ring you hear and see many things.
Now a person who doesn't show, doesn't really know these things. Because they are not exposed to all that. In my honest opinion, you might find a better dog from someone who did get clearances on their dogs and has them right in their home. The show ring is quite political. And these kind of things going on in the show ring are NOT limited to just the Golden Retriever. Anyone here who shows and has shown for many years know that these things do go on. I had a Golden Retriever who had a dual championship and even showed in the Westminster. I spent thousand of dollars on her handler and to send her across the states. She had all her clearances with OFA Good. Found out she had low thyroid. Sure it's easily treatable but the likelihood of her pups possibly getting it is higher than if she didn't have it. So after thousands of dollars, I couldn't breed her. You can have two parents and have a pedigree back 5 generations with dogs all cleared. And still throw a dysplastic pup. I've had it. And so have many others. Nothing is full proof but the odds are better, IF all those dogs were really cleared and not false papers. Again, so very sad.Now many show people would have done that. Would have just bred. And that is the reason so many breed dogs are falling away from the standard.
Bottom line, you take a chance whether you buy from someone who doesn't show as well as those who show. Talk is sweet.
Education time is over, lol

Carol and Jemma

[mypreciouspups]

Originally Posted by briana smith

Woah, I did not know this about yorkie breeders.
Why don't you learn to show yorkies so you can prove them all wrong. You can prove to the world that not all show breeders are show crazy like that. Your yorkies can be your pets and they can be show dogs. They can sleep in your bed at night and be out showing and proving that they are to the breed standard.

If I lived close enough to a yorkie breeder that shows.. I would certainly try to get involved.. I cannot run.. hard enough time walking..but I could not get a yorkie and then just have it many miles from me to spend the first years of his/her life with a handler or a show breeder...that would not satisfy me a whole lot..but if I were close and had a trust..would love it!! for trust is such a huge word in my vocabulary...it is one thing for a show breeder to produce show standard and beautiful yorkies.. but I do not trust that easily... be hurt and scammed too many times..

[mypreciouspups]

Originally Posted by Jemma

oh boy will I ever agree that "SOME" show people are NOT all that. I was a breeder of Golden Retrievers, but showing any breed is still showing. I consider myself a reputable breeder but because I am honest I will tell you what some, so called show people well/have done.
First off, there is no "perfect" pup. Second, just because you have 2 Champ parents and all clearances, does NOT mean the entire litter is a show litter. I have never seen a entire litter all show potential. The pool genes are in the millions. If my Golden had a litter of 8, I could look at a possible 3 as show, not all 8. Any breeder that claims EVERYONE one of their pups is show is full,well, ever mind.
Never go by preliminary hip x rays at 18 months. A good breeder doesn't even breed a dog until 2 years, after a FINAL OFA rating.
Now show breeders know exactly what a Judge looks for. And EVERY dog has a fault, because as stated, there is no perfect pup.
I have witnessed one breeder/show person who brought a different dog for a hip clearance but with another dog's name. Because that one dog failed for hips and she wanted to breed her because her confirmation was excellent. Oh OK so breed a female with bad hips to produce more bad hips. I've heard other breeders have done that with eye and heart clearances. Using different dogs. When you are in the show ring you hear and see many things.
Now a person who doesn't show, doesn't really know these things. Because they are not exposed to all that. In my honest opinion, you might find a better dog from someone who did get clearances on their dogs and has them right in their home. The show ring is quite political. And these kind of things going on in the show ring are NOT limited to just the Golden Retriever. Anyone here who shows and has shown for many years know that these things do go on. I had a Golden Retriever who had a dual championship and even showed in the Westminster. I spent thousand of dollars on her handler and to send her across the states. She had all her clearances with OFA Good. Found out she had low thyroid. Sure it's easily treatable but the likelihood of her pups possibly getting it is higher than if she didn't have it. So after thousands of dollars, I couldn't breed her. You can have two parents and have a pedigree back 5 generations with dogs all cleared. And still throw a dysplastic pup. I've had it. And so have many others. Nothing is full proof but the odds are better, IF all those dogs were really cleared and not false papers. Again, so very sad.Now many show people would have done that. Would have just bred. And that is the reason so many breed dogs are falling away from the standard.
Bottom line, you take a chance whether you buy from someone who doesn't show as well as those who show. Talk is sweet.
Education time is over, lol

Carol and Jemma

Thanks for your honesty.. personally I do not need that in my life.. it is a dog eat dog show world.. at one time it was an art years ago.. now it is more about the handlers and the people then the dog.. and your right.. breeders can go to places where they know what the judge wants and expects.. and avoid the judges they would not get places with... again all so political.. and if you can handle that and it is what you want..then I think it is wonderful.. anne

[BamaFan121s]

I guess it all depends on what you consider a BYB to be. It's not a clearly defined label and opinions of what a BYB is by definition obviously differ. I personally don't a BYB is defined as simply anyone breeding who does not show their dogs. There are people who breed that have very noble intentions and the best interest of the dogs and breed in general as their primary concern that do not show.

As far as buying from a broker, well, that's another story altogether... I can't for the life of me justify it or understand why anyone would support that kind of business, nor can I understand why any breeder supposedly not out just to make a quick buck would turn over their dogs to one. (IMO, no respectable breeder ever would!)

[mypreciouspups]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I guess it all depends on what you consider a BYB to be. It's not a clearly defined label and opinions of what a BYB is by definition obviously differ. I personally don't a BYB is defined as simply anyone breeding who does not show their dogs. There are people who breed that have very noble intentions and the best interest of the dogs and breed in general as their primary concern that do not show.

As far as buying from a broker, well, that's another story altogether... I can't for the life of me justify it or understand why anyone would support that kind of business, nor can I understand why any breeder supposedly not out just to make a quick buck would turn over their dogs to one. (IMO, no respectable breeder ever would!)

I absolutely agree with you.. I cannot imagine to begin with and I do not have but a litter a year at this time.. could not imgine letting some one else sell my babies.. and not know who they went to and what kind of home they will have.. it discust me that any breeder would ever sell to a broker..I got burned badly.. and would never wish anyone ever getting involved with a broker.. but for me.. I did not know she was a broker.. had not one clue..it was one tough year I was harrassed and belittled and it just never seemed to stop.. I kept every single email or msn this girl sent to me.. with all of what she said.. tried so hard to keep me from getting my papers.. and was so upset that I did get them..I was not about to let her beat me down..
I cannot show.. but want to produce healthy babies first and formost.. and with my new male I am hoping for good things to happen for me..he comes from a good champion lines.. and he is a beautiful boy...anne

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by oopsmyhalofello

I don't necessarily feel that backyard breeders (hobby breeders) are all bad, I believe there are those out there that are only doing it to make a buck, and those who are doing it to create a good sound, healthy dog for the love of the animal, not the love of money. I do believe there are breeders that don't show their dogs who are reputable and worth talking to when looking for a pet. The problem is that the majority of these types of breeders are only in it for the money, they don't ensure their animals have great care and live in great conditions, and they don't care where they end up or even if they are spayed/neutered.

As far as brokers, well thats a whole different can of worms, any breeder worth their salt would be the one screening potential new homes for their litters and being picky at that. Might as well go to a pet store if your going to go to a broker

BYB and hobby breeders are very different. Most hobby breeders do all the research, take care of their dogs, have a small number of dogs, strive to better the breed and etc. A BYB is one who doesn't care about anything as long as someone pulls in the driveway with money.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I think that's an interesting point, and I can see that applying to yorkies for things like LP. On the other hand, coloring is part of the standard, which I don't think has anything to do with health (other than extreme cases, like albinos). In other breeds, it's been clear that breed standards have become exaggerated and actually hurt the health of the dogs. It's also fact that extremely unhealthy dogs have won best in show at major events. I think bulldogs are a classic example of this.

I'm not saying that showing is wrong, just that it is not related to dog health at all. You can have a dog that's healthy, show quality, one but not the other, both, or neither.
It really bothers me that with all the advances we've made, the average dog's life span has not increased at all over the past few decades. I know there are a lot of theories about this - I've seen vaccination and nutrition cited - but I really wish that breed standards were about health, not looks.

i agree with this statement because I do show and some of the sickest or lamest dogs I have seen are either in the show ring, limping around or being bred in a show kennel. there is not a lot sadder than to see a magnificient show dog in the ring and when you look closely, it is favoring one leg or trying to hold it's weight up. or acting like it can barely walk due to bad hips.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Jemma

oh boy will I ever agree that "SOME" show people are NOT all that. I was a breeder of Golden Retrievers, but showing any breed is still showing. I consider myself a reputable breeder but because I am honest I will tell you what some, so called show people well/have done.
First off, there is no "perfect" pup. Second, just because you have 2 Champ parents and all clearances, does NOT mean the entire litter is a show litter. I have never seen a entire litter all show potential. The pool genes are in the millions. If my Golden had a litter of 8, I could look at a possible 3 as show, not all 8. Any breeder that claims EVERYONE one of their pups is show is full,well, ever mind.
Never go by preliminary hip x rays at 18 months. A good breeder doesn't even breed a dog until 2 years, after a FINAL OFA rating.
Now show breeders know exactly what a Judge looks for. And EVERY dog has a fault, because as stated, there is no perfect pup.
I have witnessed one breeder/show person who brought a different dog for a hip clearance but with another dog's name. Because that one dog failed for hips and she wanted to breed her because her confirmation was excellent. Oh OK so breed a female with bad hips to produce more bad hips. I've heard other breeders have done that with eye and heart clearances. Using different dogs. When you are in the show ring you hear and see many things.
Now a person who doesn't show, doesn't really know these things. Because they are not exposed to all that. In my honest opinion, you might find a better dog from someone who did get clearances on their dogs and has them right in their home. The show ring is quite political. And these kind of things going on in the show ring are NOT limited to just the Golden Retriever. Anyone here who shows and has shown for many years know that these things do go on. I had a Golden Retriever who had a dual championship and even showed in the Westminster. I spent thousand of dollars on her handler and to send her across the states. She had all her clearances with OFA Good. Found out she had low thyroid. Sure it's easily treatable but the likelihood of her pups possibly getting it is higher than if she didn't have it. So after thousands of dollars, I couldn't breed her. You can have two parents and have a pedigree back 5 generations with dogs all cleared. And still throw a dysplastic pup. I've had it. And so have many others. Nothing is full proof but the odds are better, IF all those dogs were really cleared and not false papers. Again, so very sad.Now many show people would have done that. Would have just bred. And that is the reason so many breed dogs are falling away from the standard.
Bottom line, you take a chance whether you buy from someone who doesn't show as well as those who show. Talk is sweet.
Education time is over, lol

Carol and Jemma

I disagree with this statement. I have only been showing about two years but I knew all that you are talking about before I ever bred my first dog. Why? Because I educated myself before I even started. This is what all serious breeders ought to do.

[mypreciouspups]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

BYB and hobby breeders are very different. Most hobby breeders do all the research, take care of their dogs, have a small number of dogs, strive to better the breed and etc. A BYB is one who doesn't care about anything as long as someone pulls in the driveway with money.

perfect way of putting it Dee..thanks for the input..anne

[Jemma]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

I disagree with this statement. I have only been showing about two years but I knew all that you are talking about before I ever bred my first dog. Why? Because I educated myself before I even started. This is what all serious breeders ought to do.

You took that statement wrong. What I was saying was people who do not show are not exposed to all the false paper stuff and the things a show person can/will do. Of course, I agree with you 100 percent that anyone who intends to breed owes it to their dogs to learn everything first (research) and then weigh if you can be responsible enough to do all those things. And I'm glad you heard all I was talking about. I wanted to make sure people knew that this just wasn't Goldens but ALL breeds. Yes, it was a Art. As I had said, yup it's political. I don't show anymore nor breed Goldens. I have my little Shorkie Jemma who will never have a pup. I won't share anyway, she's all mine. lol

Carol