Pedigree question

[naturalallure]

And apology to OP for kinda sorta taking over the thread

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by naturalallure

And apology to OP for kinda sorta taking over the thread

Don't think you took over the thread, we all learn from other's input.

[nanahas3]

As a more informed buyer who has now found YT and knows what to ask I would definately ask all those questions now but at the time I was very new to all this and I feel like a good honest breeder would tell you things such as the fact that your new puppy was the product of inbreeding and other important stuff especially if they know you are a newbie to all of thisThank the Lord for YT now we who have found it know better.

[WalnutHill]

Here is my opinion about such CLOSE "line breeding":

Line breedering (and certainly inbreeding) should ONLY be done by a VERY experienced breeder, and ONLY if the genetics you are trying to magnify are something that you really really want to magnify (ie, you have a great dog that is almost PERFECT in every way, and has at least obtained a CH title).

I have seen a lot of inbreeding with dogs here in Missouri, and it is not being done by experienced breeders, but by "backyard breeders" and substandard "puppy mills" who just don't want to spend the money to buy dogs to out breed, and, they honestly aren't paying much attention to which males are breeding with which females.

Any breeder who responsibly line breeds, I would think, would be so excited about finally having a perfect dog to line breed that they would be very up front about the lineage of the puppies. And, if a breeder is line breeding so closely, then they would seriously want to evaluate every single pup in the litter for a long time (I'd say at least a year). Evaluation takes quite a while when you are talking about possible genetic medical issues, conformation, coat coloring, breaking patterns, etc

It is not uncommon for puppies to have the same ancestor on the Sire and Dam side at some point in an long (8 generations or so) pedigree, much less common in a 4 generation pedigree, unless there is a LOT of red in it.

Just because the AKC will register an inbred dog (even littermates bred to each other), doesn't mean it's always a good idea.

JMO

[Mardelin]

Most breeder/exhibitors do line breed. However, with line breeding you do have a draw back, you do on occassion box yourself in and have to go outside for breeding. The drawback with that is there is a possibility of bringing something into your line that you don't particularly care for.

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Most breeder/exhibitors do line breed. However, with line breeding you do have a draw back, you do on occassion box yourself in and have to go outside for breeding. The drawback with that is there is a possibility of bringing something into your line that you don't particularly care for.

That's true, you have to introduce genetics that someone else bred for, that is probably not what you are breeding for, since, like you said, every breeder has different preferences on averything from personality to coat texture to gait, muzzle, etc.

But, to the breeder who is not an exhibitor (most of them around where I live), and not even what I would consider knowledgable in the breed (don't even know what the standard is) line breeding is simply a means to an end, more puppies to sell and you don't have to spend any money buying a dog from someone else.

Where I live, it is commonly accepted practice to breed any two Yorkies (or any other breed for that matter) and consider yourself a breeder. But, I think (fingers crossed) that is about to change. Where I live, most every breeder sells their puppies exclusively to the Hunte Corporation. So, I have a feeling as Hunte gets less and less business (thanks to people being more informed about buying from pet stores), theses breeders will fade away.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

That's true, you have to introduce genetics that someone else bred for, that is probably not what you are breeding for, since, like you said, every breeder has different preferences on averything from personality to coat texture to gait, muzzle, etc.

But, to the breeder who is not an exhibitor (most of them around where I live), and not even what I would consider knowledgable in the breed (don't even know what the standard is) line breeding is simply a means to an end, more puppies to sell and you don't have to spend any money buying a dog from someone else.

Where I live, it is commonly accepted practice to breed any two Yorkies (or any other breed for that matter) and consider yourself a breeder. But, I think (fingers crossed) that is about to change. Where I live, most every breeder sells their puppies exclusively to the Hunte Corporation. So, I have a feeling as Hunte gets less and less business (thanks to people being more informed about buying from pet stores), theses breeders will fade away.

I don't know where in MO you live, however, I know some very reputable breeders in the MO area.

What you are decribing in your area is not uncommon throught the US. But, people are becoming more informed/educated and less impulsive in their purchase of a pup. I do have a friend that purchased his yorkie from a Pet Store that came via the Hunte Co. Not advocating Hunte, but when his little yorkie had a problem with it's micro-chip. Hunte did cover the cost of fixing it.

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I don't know where in MO you live, however, I know some very reputable breeders in the MO area.

What you are decribing in your area is not uncommon throught the US. But, people are becoming more informed/educated and less impulsive in their purchase of a pup. I do have a friend that purchased his yorkie from a Pet Store that came via the Hunte Co. Not advocating Hunte, but when his little yorkie had a problem with it's micro-chip. Hunte did cover the cost of fixing it.

We live in Lebanon, MO. In Laclede County, where we live, it is my understanding that there are over 600 USDA licensed breeders. I don't know what the numbers are in Missouri as a whole, but if I were to guess, I'd say that we have more USDA breeders here than anywhere in the nation, and we probably have the most of any county in the nation. That's certainly not something to be "bragging" about, but I'm just saying that my experience with breeders is a lot different than most people.

I don't advocate or villify Hunte, they are what they are, and obviously they are filling a demand. But, the people who breed specifically for Hunte are, in general, not breeding to better the breed, they are breeding for minimal health standards and nothing else. When Hunte buys a dog, they are looking at a few things: major health issues, size, and papers. Hunte gives no incentives to breeders to produce better puppies. Hunte doesn't know the standards for the breed, and usually neither do the breeders. Hunte looks at the registration papers to makes sure it's a "pure bred" dog, and that's about it. Around here, people look at me like I'm crazy when I mention our local AKC breed club or AKC shows. Most of these breeders are looking at the "bottom line." Breeding is extra income. There is no reason to be affiliated with any organization that will cause them to spend any extra time on their dogs. Now, I'm not saying they are all bad or that they all produce bad puppies, but the intention is not to better the breed but to make money.

People around here generally have more than one breed. someone told my dad that the reason they do that is in case the "bottom falls out" of a market for one type of dog. Someone actually told him to "not put all of your eggs in one basket." Basically, they want to be breeding the type of dogs that are most popular and that Hunte pays the most for. Of course, we breed Yorkies because we want to breed Yorkies. If no one ever buys a puppy from us again, we'll still breed Yorkies.

I am going on a rant, so, I'm sorry. I'll stop. I didn't mean to hijack the thread.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by WalnutHill

We live in Lebanon, MO. In Laclede County, where we live, it is my understanding that there are over 600 USDA licensed breeders. I don't know what the numbers are in Missouri as a whole, but if I were to guess, I'd say that we have more USDA breeders here than anywhere in the nation, and we probably have the most of any county in the nation. That's certainly not something to be "bragging" about, but I'm just saying that my experience with breeders is a lot different than most people.

I don't advocate or villify Hunte, they are what they are, and obviously they are filling a demand. But, the people who breed specifically for Hunte are, in general, not breeding to better the breed, they are breeding for minimal health standards and nothing else. When Hunte buys a dog, they are looking at a few things: major health issues, size, and papers. Hunte gives no incentives to breeders to produce better puppies. Hunte doesn't know the standards for the breed, and usually neither do the breeders. Hunte looks at the registration papers to makes sure it's a "pure bred" dog, and that's about it. Around here, people look at me like I'm crazy when I mention our local AKC breed club or AKC shows. Most of these breeders are looking at the "bottom line." Breeding is extra income. There is no reason to be affiliated with any organization that will cause them to spend any extra time on their dogs. Now, I'm not saying they are all bad or that they all produce bad puppies, but the intention is not to better the breed but to make money.

People around here generally have more than one breed. someone told my dad that the reason they do that is in case the "bottom falls out" of a market for one type of dog. Someone actually told him to "not put all of your eggs in one basket." Basically, they want to be breeding the type of dogs that are most popular and that Hunte pays the most for. Of course, we breed Yorkies because we want to breed Yorkies. If no one ever buys a puppy from us again, we'll still breed Yorkies.

I am going on a rant, so, I'm sorry. I'll stop. I didn't mean to hijack the thread.

No, you didn't hijack the tread, you are educating.

As long as their are people out there that are buying puppies that are more concerned with the the quality, and health of a puppy, you are going to have those type of breeders that breed and live off their dogs. Sad, but true. I have people call me and the first words out of their mouths is how much. I rudely say, you can't afford my dogs and hang up. I don't care if they can afford them, but if they are more concerned with the bottom dollar, I don't want them having one of my pups.

[mothermoon11]

Well, I spoke with the breeder of my little girl today. I found out that she did the line breeding for color and perfection. That is why when she met my little boy she wanted so badly to breed with him. She seen qualities in him that she wanted to extend in her breeding process.
She explained to me that the parents were 1/2 sibs. I guess I was just shocked when I got her papers and seen the same grandmother for both sides, and jumped the gun by asking questions here when I couldn't get ahold of her. I sure thank every one here for all of the information. This post became very educational for me and I hope others. I did not know that it was o-k to breed so closely in line. Thanks to all of you I feel much more educated now. There is sooooooooo much to learn. I don't want to be a breeder, I just want to have the puppies I promised to the breeder for my little girl, then we will be getting both boy and girl fixed. There are enough people breeding these little fur babies, and I don't need to jump on that band wagon. LOL! I'll leave the actual breeding to those of you who know what you are doing
Thanks again Dee

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Dee,

I provide a baby book, within it, it has all medical records, a chrono of everything that has transpired, from the birth of the pup to the day it goes home, even if the pup had to be delivered via an emergency delivery. When it's eyes and ears opened, when it took it's first steps, etc. A 10 generation pedigree on both the parents, pics of the parents and baby pics of the pup from the moment they are born. A copy of the contract, links of where to purchase things, feeding instructions, training instructions, how to interview vets, everything I could think of that a new puppy family would need. My # and e-mail is listed within the book in several locations. The book is pretty massive.

i was talking about when people are first inquiring. That is if they are still interested when the ask the price. LOL I usually can tell if they are looing for cheap. I generally tell them my dogs aren't cheap but they can find a three hundred dollar one in the newspaper and feel free to look elsewhere. i do those things to help them make up their mind. The baby book to go when the pup is sold and leaving is a great idea. Of course, I send all kinds of info but a baby book would be so nice. thanks.

[WalnutHill]

Originally Posted by mothermoon11

Well, I spoke with the breeder of my little girl today. I found out that she did the line breeding for color and perfection. That is why when she met my little boy she wanted so badly to breed with him. She seen qualities in him that she wanted to extend in her breeding process.
She explained to me that the parents were 1/2 sibs. I guess I was just shocked when I got her papers and seen the same grandmother for both sides, and jumped the gun by asking questions here when I couldn't get ahold of her. I sure thank every one here for all of the information. This post became very educational for me and I hope others. I did not know that it was o-k to breed so closely in line. Thanks to all of you I feel much more educated now. There is sooooooooo much to learn. I don't want to be a breeder, I just want to have the puppies I promised to the breeder for my little girl, then we will be getting both boy and girl fixed. There are enough people breeding these little fur babies, and I don't need to jump on that band wagon. LOL! I'll leave the actual breeding to those of you who know what you are doing
Thanks again Dee

So, your female that you just got the pedigree for is already pregnant?

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by mothermoon11

Well, I spoke with the breeder of my little girl today. I found out that she did the line breeding for color and perfection. That is why when she met my little boy she wanted so badly to breed with him. She seen qualities in him that she wanted to extend in her breeding process.
She explained to me that the parents were 1/2 sibs. I guess I was just shocked when I got her papers and seen the same grandmother for both sides, and jumped the gun by asking questions here when I couldn't get ahold of her. I sure thank every one here for all of the information. This post became very educational for me and I hope others. I did not know that it was o-k to breed so closely in line. Thanks to all of you I feel much more educated now. There is sooooooooo much to learn. I don't want to be a breeder, I just want to have the puppies I promised to the breeder for my little girl, then we will be getting both boy and girl fixed. There are enough people breeding these little fur babies, and I don't need to jump on that band wagon. LOL! I'll leave the actual breeding to those of you who know what you are doing
Thanks again Dee

If you are going to breed this girl, you are in every sense of the word a breeder, whether you want to be or not.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

i was talking about when people are first inquiring. That is if they are still interested when the ask the price. LOL I usually can tell if they are looing for cheap. I generally tell them my dogs aren't cheap but they can find a three hundred dollar one in the newspaper and feel free to look elsewhere. i do those things to help them make up their mind. The baby book to go when the pup is sold and leaving is a great idea. Of course, I send all kinds of info but a baby book would be so nice. thanks.

It's a nice gift to the new families. I take a white notebook, that has a plastic liner that you can insert things. Reason is I take a pic on their last day here, label the pic so, and so's baby book, insert it into the front. Use dividers for the inside, label accordingly. The new families that have taken the book with them to vets, have got high compliments from the vet on the book.

[AmyChristine]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

It's a nice gift to the new families. I take a white notebook, that has a plastic liner that you can insert things. Reason is I take a pic on their last day here, label the pic so, and so's baby book, insert it into the front. Use dividers for the inside, label accordingly. The new families that have taken the book with them to vets, have got high compliments from the vet on the book.

This is truly a wonderful thing that you do. It says so much about you to the buyer, that you care about each individual pup so much to take the time to organize a book that will help the new owner to feel like they already know everything that has happened.

It makes me smile to know that there are breeders out there that are not only very ethical and doing everything for the right reasons, but also care and put just as much enegy into the puppies that will be placed as the ones that will be kept.

Your knowledge and dedication to the breed is such a gift to those of us trying to learn.