Mill argument
 

Please do not mistake this post that I agree with the mistreatment of animals.

First let me state my views on the proper treatment of animals.

I love animals. Always have and always will. However, I believe that pets are pets and should be treated as such. They should not be dressed up on a regular basis as if they were a person. An occasional shirt on a college game day or holiday should be accepted; however, I don't think that one's pet should consume his or her entire life. I think it is completely ridiculous for one to revolve their life around their dog. Pets are great for companionship and fun to play with. I also believe that animals used for breeding should be well exercised, nourished, vaccinated and not over bred. If the breeder follows those four things, but doesn't treat the dog as if it were their only child, does not make it a bad breeder. It simply means that they are doing it as a business venture and are treating it as such.

OK Kelly and I got into an argument over what a "puppy mill" really is. She sees Bentley as part of the family and loves devoting her entire day to him. In doing so she seems to have joined this yorkie forum bandwagon of, classify nearly every breeder as a mill, shut them down, and lock them up.

The reason Kelly and I even had this argument is because she is wanting another puppy and worried about it being from a "puppy mill". I said to her, "so, if this lady has 30 dogs that makes her a puppy mill?" Her response to me was "yes” I then said, "so having 30 dogs makes you a bad breeder?" Her response was again "yes, because you honestly think that she gives enough attention to those dogs?" I said if that was her only source of income I could see her devoting enough time to the dogs to make sure they were properly taken care of i.e. exercise, nutrition, and vaccination. When I asked why people wouldn't buy these puppies to rid them of these horrible conditions she informed me that I "didn't understand and I needed to do research on it."

"I don't understand"? What's there to not understand? Why not buy these puppies to take them into a home? It would insure that they would not be kept to be over bred when they reached maturity.

This brings me to my thoughts on what a "puppy mill" actually is. I don't agree with everyone protesting "puppy mills". It is true that animals are living creatures and deserve to be treated in a humane manor. What I do question is what people will actually classify a "puppy mill" to be. A mill is "a machine or device that reduces a solid or coarse substance into pulp or minute grains by crushing, grinding, or pressing" (dictionary.com mill ) This is what the breeders are doing to the dogs. Reducing them (in health) by over breeding to produce the most puppies insuring the most profit. If you would ask me if I thought this was wrong, my immediate answer would be most definitely.

I don't believe there is such thing as a "puppy mill". However, I do believe that there are terrible breeders out there mistreating dogs. A person having 30 dogs does not classify them as a bad breeder as long as they provide their dogs with sufficient nutrition and exercise, as well as keeping them up to date on their vaccinations and breeding them sufficiently but not over doing it. What if a breeder had 3 females and one male and kept them each in their own 3x3 cage, fed them sufficient food and kept their vaccinations up to date but bred every cycle the females had? That would make them a very bad breeder.

I believe that these two classifications of breeders (good and bad) should be used to describe a place where puppies can be purchased. People should just not assume that because a breeder has 30 dogs they are automatically classified as a "puppy mill". People need to desensitize themselves from this happy-go-lucky world of spoiled dogs that wear clothes and that have human tendencies, and remember that they are pets and should be treated as such. People should breed the dogs, but do so in a humane manor.

Just thought I could get some well thought out arguments by throwing some spice on the board.

Brett

well that is some food for thought to say the least after my experience with luna i must say i am going to be more careful in the future

someone please explain this to him..i tired and i swear all he hears is blah blah blah... haha and then i just get mad and want to be like.. That's it!! your sleepin on the COUCH!!

but honestly he is right to a point...i think the definition of a puppymill is different to everyone...For me its a breeder who has to many dogs in poor conditions and just keep mass reproducing

That is the point I was making....And that is how Kelly sees it too. It appears that there was somewhat of a misunderstanding between the two of us. Where we disagree is that she believes that breeders should treat their dogs the way we treat Bentley. I would disagree with her on this because they are dogs used for breeding not as pets. I am not saying that they should be treated badly; however, it is not sane to allow all of your dogs that you breed to sleep with you and take with you on vacation. Kelly did just make the comment that 30 yorkies would be a wonderful thing to have as pets. Guess who is sleeping on the couch now haha.

well glad you 2 could work it out....

Brett, I think your opinion is well thought out, and I agree with you. I love my animals dearly, and even put jackets and T-shirts on my dogs sometimes. But like you said they are still animals. Hopefully people will take time to really read you post and think about it and respond with thier own ideas, not emotion.

If you want to see pictures of an actual puppy mill, there are sites that you can visit to do so. www.puppymillrescue.com is one. I personally don't think all breeders with lots of dogs are necessarily puppy mills. It depends on the condition and treatment of the dogs.

No offense - but a PUPPY MILL DO Exist and they DO Grind up those poor dogs. Maybe not literally but you just go visit some websites and see those poor faces and those HORRIBLE CONDITIONS and you may change your mind. Their STATE OF MIND is ground up and destroyed just like they destroy them when they are of no use to the EVIL Owners of Mills.

The are far too many MASS BREEDING Facilities - they ARE Puppy Mills. When I got my very first Cocker Spaniel 10 years ago we were in what I now classify as a MILL....It was FULL of over 200 barking sad negelected cockers and though at the time I had NO CLUE what I was seeing and never heard of mills before - I was crying for all those poor dogs. They were totally MISERABLE.

You're sadly mistaken if you think Mills are figments of peoples imaginations - they are a sad reality and stopping the sales of puppies in Pet Stores can put a dent in that evil business - but I'm also sad to know that they will probably always exist in some form until people are severly punished for mis-treating animals.

ps...there are all kinds of pet owners - many of us consider them family members and are treated as such...My girls LOVE wearing clothes but I don't force them to do this - I see happy faces when I dress them - it's not only for my enjoyment - it's for warmth in the winter and cuteness in the summer.

Many people consider pets as pets - that's fine too - as long as they take care of them I'm sure they're happy pets - but I think those of us with yorkies who treat them special have REALLY happy little dogs....I wouldn't change how I treat my girls for anything. Since my kids are grown - it's like having small children again and I just love it. So do they.

Oh...and your puppy is ADORABLE by the way - I meant no offense by my post - really I didn't....but I do wonder after seeing your avatar picture - is a BOW in your cute puppies hair not considered dressed up ? :) ..I think we all want them to look cute - clothes and bows are part of that -

I know they can live without it all - but it IS fun seeing your puppy with a little bow isn't it ?...now in COLD states - clothes are functional as yorkies tend to feel the cold weather - What state do you live in ? As I'm in Houston - my girls hardly wear clothes in the summer - unless we go out - but in the winter T-Shirts and sweaters really do keep them warm.

I also think a breeder CAN have 30 dogs and be a good breeder depending on how many people are caring for that amount of dogs. A BAD breeder will simply keep them in cages and not have the time or energy to care for them and only sees them as a way to make money.

CARING breeders may have lots of dogs. A good friend of mine has 12 females and you should see how well cared for they are. She just showed me a picture after coming home from a groomer with ALL of them - talk about happy & beautiful yorkies...that picture alone would change your mind on breeders.

Please visit some puppy mill websites - do a search on STOP Puppy mills - read and maybe re-think your views ?

Villette, He didn't say that "Mills are figments of peoples imaginations" He just said that he didn't feel that a person with 30 breeding dogs that took care of their animals were not always a Mill!! I understand what he is talking about and I tend to agree with him, There are a few breeders out there (not many)that have more than one breed and own many dogs, but all their dogs are taken very good care of. I don't think this type of person is a mill.. Just my opinion :p

We all know that MILLS do exist and they need to be STOPPED!

I did understand him - He stated he didn't think there was such a thing as a puppy mill ....3rd para from end of post

on the "Figment of peoples imagination" - those were MY words - I just got the impression he didn't think there were really mills out there and there are far too many to count.....and I agree - I don't think every breeder is a mill with 30 breeding dogs either - to me...a Mill is operated by someone who only sees dogs as profit and has no feelings for them at all. Maybe I came on too strong - I do apologise for that - I really get going on puppy mills and just want the world to be aware of them.

i think we all have STRONG opinions on this subject and maybe we should just let it go

lol..I for one am NOT upset ...I hope I sounded ok....because I really did understand his feelings - I just feel many people really don't know about true mills. These are the great kind of threads that may educate someone who was just like me 10 years ago and had no CLUE that mills exist.

Now that I look back on being in that breeders place where we got Tessa ....I realize she is a puppy Mill Cocker Spaniel

V- I agree with you 100%. The first thing Brett brought up was the clothes and accessories. Mine throw a fit if I put a bow in their hair but if I had dogs that would let me, I'd dress mine up to. I think that it is absoltely precious to see dogs dressed up and to know that their humans took the time to pick out such fashions shows that they are thought of as family! :)

Secondly, yes, puppy mills do exist. When we got our GSP, the guy had around 20 breeding females and they were all tied up with puppies running everywhere. He did all of his own shots. If you think about it, someone with that many dogs isn't necessarily going to take each and every one to a vet. It would cost too much to vaccinate each pup along with worming. When a breeders owns that many dogs, think about it, the more they go to the vet, the less of a profit they will make on each pup.

Brett's wife brought up the socializing issue. When someone has that many dogs, do you honestly think that they're spending quality time with their dogs? That breeder could spend 1 hour a day with each dog...there's just not enough time. Dogs need to be socialized or else they have the chance of becomming aggressive. Just read some of the stories here of people that have purchased dogs from mills or pet stores and the yorkies have become so aggressive that they end up wanting to get rid of the dog.

To you, dogs are just dogs and should be treated as such. What about the husbands and wives that can't produce children? I sold a pup to a couple that had been married for over 15 years and never was able to have kids. These "dogs" are their children. Don't condemn all people that like to dress up their dogs because you don't know the full story.

Just my two cents!

Oh i know you arent upset just saying this topic tends to get people all "riled" up...as far as bows and clothes brett likes bentley to be a mans man and kelly likes him to look cute

My husband was the same way. I'd put bows in Chester's hair and my husband said that I was trying to turn him into an unmanly man(not exact words of course). But my babies are my babies. They follow me everywhere and I spend time loving on each one of them all of the time. You can tell that they are loved too. They will look me in the eye and the love that I see in them will stop my heart. They trust me completely.

You go to a mass producer. Do their dogs look lovingly into their breeder's eyes? No, chances are, they hang their heads down. It's really sad to see.

But you are right. Each person's definition of a mill is different. This topic tends to get people riled up and it will get closed...you mark my words!

haha - I just saw this - I think it's great you're both discussing this - hope the couch is comfy ! :D
and Angie - I truly hope it doesn't get closed - it's a good topic and this is how we learn....I know it's sensitive but it's out of compassion that we discuss it - I for one don't like how they turn into debates and this is a great start to a healthy discussion I think.....if ONE person gets interested in learning more about the Puppy Mills in this country then we did a great thread !

it's all good :D

On a more personal note hehehe its has been brought to my attention that this posts looks like i am bashing my breeder please do not take it as such. all i am saying is i am guilty of not doing enough research we tend to follow our hearts and not our gut instincts.

me too with my cocker Tessa AND my yorkie Chanel. Her breeder had LOTS of yorkies and I now consider HER a small mill - When I got Chanel she was INSIDE the house in a playpen - with other yorkies - but after we paid for her - we were shown the place she kept the breeding females. NOT NICE. They were kept in a seperate facility that was in the back - dirt floors - I asked about Air Conditioning - she said yes - I didn't believe her.

By that time I had held Chanel for an hour and was NOT giving her back - her breeder is one I warn people about - There was no WAY those yorkies in the back were getting what they needed - I could tell by her attitude once she had the money in her hand. I never got any help from her when Chanel came home with coccidia - she played dumb and stopped answering my calls after the 1st call.

THAT is a bad breeder to me and I have no problem bashing her. I LOVE my Chanel but feel that breeder doesn't care what she sells or if her puppies are sick - a friend has a yorkie from the SAME breeder purchased 6 years ago,

Her yorkie had such severe LP she had 2 operations before she was a year old. NO help from the breeder for her either - Her yorkie also weighs 14 pounds....and has severe allergies and other problems. I'm VERY lucky Chanel has no health issues.

I'm with Villette on this one. I personally don't dress my dogs for fun, theirs or mine, because it's mostly pointless, the other kids undress the dressed ones as fast as I can put the stuff on! though I will admit to the occasional funny hat. We do have sweatshirts for chilly outings, but that's about it.
My view on the mill thing is this...mass production of dogs is wrong, they ought not be viewed as a commodity, because they quality of what is produced in that manner is poor. Go look at the sick/training threads for examples of what bad breeding practices result in. Dogs need to be nurtured in a household environment to become good household pets. Even healthy dogs, screened and vetted and fed and kept clean and not over bred that are raised in a mass production environment lack important behavior/socialization skills that are essential to a good dog. Brokers that perpetuate this situation are abhorrent. Backyard breeders are equally as bad when producing puppies without the knowledge of the genetic health background of the dogs bred, especially in a breed with as many potential problems as the yorks can carry without showing in the breeding pair. The ignorance is inexcusable. Anyone promoting the breeding of dogs without this essential background information is just doing a great disservice to the breed. Just because someone has two intact dogs with 'papers' (or without) does not mean they should have pups. Unfortunately they are told the dogs are 'cute' and healthy enough and it's their right to do what they want.
I don't think you can place a number on the amount of dogs a good breeder should have. It is a case by case situation regarding the amount of help each one has in caring for the animals and the space they have in the home. Common sense should rule here. It is obvious to me that I alone could not possibly love and care for 30 dogs properly by myself. There are just not enough hours in the day.
To address one other comment made...buying the mill pups to get them out of the situation only fosters the problem by providing continuing income to the producers. It is tragic to walk away from the sad pups, and I admire all the work done by Bichon rescue in buying auction dogs to rescue, but I don't know if that is a real solution. I believe the only hope for real change is education for the general public to eliminate the market for the mass produced dogs. It's a long shot, but worth trying for.

Oh yes..this topic was a hot one last night in our house. Brett does know that there are infact mills..b/c i pull them up and about cry and make him come look at the pictures.. we just have different opinions on what we consider mills, which is why he made this thread.

I think all the responses we've had are GREAT! And Villette is right... if one new person read this thread and was exposed to what a puppymill is and how horrible they are .. i think we've accomplished something. Honestly i wish there was a way to inform every person in the world about them!!

As far as brett's dog... He's Spoiled and brett knows it! He just thinks that i don't have to dress him up all the time..But i swear i would not do it if Bentley hated that and Brett knows that. I think Brett is slowly starting to get use to the fact that i'm going to dress bentley up. This is a direct quote from him " You can dress up the girl when we get her..But then will you please stop making him look so girly" Haha i told him i'd quit asking to put bows in his hair..but the clothes STAY..and he Finally agreed!

I think it's GREAT that he posted - it shows he's interested and up for suggestions - that or he wanted confirmation that he didn't have to sleep on the couch - sorry Brett ! :D oh...and there are REALLY CUTE sports clothes - what's his favorite team ? lol - bows too !

I agree. I actually would like to breed my baby in the FAR future.. That's why in search of a female. Bentley hasn't had any health problems which i am VERY thankful for. However, If i get a female that has any kind of problem, i will not breed her. I would just really like to be a breeder. In a few years we will be financially stable to where that's what i can devote my time to. My dogs!! That's why i think this site is also great. There's so much you can learn or so many people you can ask if you ever need/want to know anything!

haha no..he got to stay in the bed! He is actually really intrested in others opinions thats why he was like "i think i'm gonna post on YT. " I was unsure at first about him posting it b/c i didnt want to start a huge controvesry. But i think everyones opinions are great now that i'm reading them!!

he knows about sports clothes... he wants an OU shirt for bentley. but shhhhhh dont tell him i told!

haha - I'm sure the couch was very happy too :D

That's great you're learning before breeding - I totally agreed with Sylvans post too - and see ? We didn't get hot or have this thread turn into a debate - YAY ! everyone added helpful information and opinions here.

THIS is the kind of information that can only help someone new to breeding or getting a puppy - or who really doesn't know the difference in breeders ....or know about Brokers and Puppy Mills... that they DO exist and are NOT good...or don't know to STAY AWAY from Pet Stores.

There are good breeders out there - we just have to find them and pass them along to our friends.

I agree 100% . I honestly didnt know ANYTHING about mills before i joined this site. I just got online before brett was about to go and got some advice from a website.
It was like what to look for when buying a puppy. Which help a little too. I'm very greatful we actually got a good breeder. The only bad thing now is that i want to go and bust everyone and give them a piece of my mind while i'm doing it!

ME TOO ! You. GO. GIRL.

That's the best thing I've heard all day and exactly why these threads are great for information....they stir our emotions into wanting to do something.
And we can each help in our own way. Good for you and Brett - I enjoyed this thread - thanks ! wish I could get my hubby this interested.

I just want to say that I have truly enjoted reading this thread!!!! Really!!! Great info and great opinions!!! And how cool that-Kelly- your hubby has taken interest!!!! That is why we are here-- to learn, ask questions, offer advise and talk yorkies!!!! I love how great this thread has come out so far!

Thanks all of you!!!!!
I really have enyoyed this one--I learned a few things myself!!!!!

--Mandy--

I would like to add one more interesting experience to this post..before I got my little guy, I deceided to find the most reputable breeders in the immediate driveable area. I went to 4 or 5. Three were breeders who actually show at the "big" shows- have a long time kennel name which is known in the area , etc. One thing that bothered me about two of them..even with all the ribbons ( from show winnings)- championships etc, there were still over 30 dogs. The were in an air conditioned room.. but most of them were in crates.. and I do not believe very socialized.Also, they did not look very groomed. I just felt funny about the whole thing. It was not a mill..but "something" was missing. No real one on one time. I walked away..It is hard to think that having more than a few-- maybe 5 or so(?), can these furbabies really get care and enough love that they deserve. We are having trouble with just three dogs.. and thats spending all our time with them. Our home life revolves around these guys..
But all in all ,..this is a hard thing to really judge..and I am just expressing my own experiences.