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Wow, this is going to be one of those really long threads!!! On and on it will go, But as long as we agree that there are Mills and these Mills need to be closed!! |
Yes they do!!!! |
do you think this is a mill? I bought Pepper from a petstore. He arrived at the petstore from a woman who breeds yorkies and other breeds..a backyard breeder...via Hunte Corp. the countries biggest puppy broker. I won't go into my opinion of Hunte. I went to Pepshop puppies.com, they did a search to find out if Pep's breeder had any Citations (sp?) on her record..she had one. There was an excess of waste near the cages of the big dogs. Pepper has an illness called Cerebellar Abiotrophy. I have been searching for information about this illness for over a year now..the experts are still trying to understand and cure it. The latest info is: they now believe that both parent carry a recessive gene and that one of them has to have an ACTIVE case of CA. Most likey everyone one of their puppies will have this devistating (I am truly sorry for my spelling!) disease. It is a neurological disease that effects his balance among other things. But the thing is..it isn't all of the time (yet). So, if this woman keeps her dogs in cages, even if she let it out an hour a day for excersize, she feeds and waters them, they get their shots, and she keeps their area clean, without being able to see them walk around she wouldn't know that she is filling this world with puppies whose lives are hell! Is she a puppy mill? I think she is...even if all the conditions I said above were met (I don't believe they are but even if) these puppies she is mass producing are really living in hell! Pepper's legs will eventually quit supporting him at all and at that time I will have to put him to sleep...I love him too much to let him try to live like that! I am one of those who view her pets as her children...LOL just ask my human kids! Please understand that this is not an attack...I am really curious if you would all consider her a mill...I don't want to start anything! :D I am still after over a year with Pepper trying to deal with his illness. One that I now know could have been prevented by just not breeding those 2 dogs! This is all just my opinion! Kathy and Sir Pepper |
If she is mass producing... that's a red flag.. and even if shes not a mill she should NOT be breeding if her dogs have that kind of problem!! that's just wrong to bring puppies into the world that are going to have to be put to sleep |
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Villette... You know..I think we are all unanimous in our belief system about the humane treatment of animals. We are ALL animal lovers here...otherwise..we wouldn't be here on this site. And I know the majority of us feel that supporting these puppy mills is not in the best interest of all animals. But what happens to those puppies who are born in a puppy mill? If they could talk...I think they would give anything to be in a loving home...to be doted on...cared for...treated like "small children". Why shouldn't they get a chance to? Why PUNISH the innocent? I would LOVE to believe that by not buying a "puppy mill" puppy, it would eradicate these mills..but the truth is that as long as greed exists in this world...there will be people who will try to use defenseless animals as a commodity. I'm just saddened at the choice we have to make....to save ONE life...or turn our heads away...and walk on..in the HOPE that by doing so, humanity will come to its senses. Francie |
funny you bring that up.. we talked about that last night. i feel that puppies from puppy mil should not be bought..i DO feel that people should go in a rescue them and put them up for adoption. Like i said to brett last night..i would not buy one..but if one was up for adoption b/c he was recused..i'd def. adopt him |
Brett~~ Thank you so much for your post! I asked this very question in a thread a little while ago and almost got "Run off YT"!!! Here is the link because you and others interested in this subject may want to read it. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...ight=Puppymill I have never wanted to appear to defend anyone who mistreats animals so I have had to tread lightly, but I know that most people who own dogs do not place them on the pedestal that we here at YT do. I do dress my dogs because I like to and I do treat them like my children to a certain extent, but, despite that fanaticism, I understand that we are not the norm and that what some on here would consider mistreatment may not really be in the "real" world so to speak. |
haha i agree with the we are not the norm. I dont really think any of my friends understand why i am like i am with my dogs.. but i dont care!! One thing they do know is my dog is very well taken care of and loved! |
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IF no one BOUGHT that Pet Store puppy - the need for replacememts will drop - it's sad and sounds terrible....I would LOVE them all to have homes myself..... but until the government does something... the best way to hit mills is hit them in the pocket. Which means don't buy a Pet Store puppy. If Mills don't have customers like Pet Stores - they won't need to mass breed...and that means less unwanted dogs.... but yes..I totally understand your feelings - either way dogs lose - the ones in the mills and the ones in the Pet Stores - This whole thing is heartbreaking and a sad reality - but the mass breeding really would drop if Pet Stores were not allowed to sell. |
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There are a lot of members here who say they wouldn't buy from anything other than A ytca show breeder, but yet, in my opinion, the hobby breeders I have met and spoken to treat their dogs so much better than most, not all, show breeders who seem to view their dogs as "collectibles" rather than loveable creatures who just want to give unconditional love. Even the dogs being shown leave their home to live with handlers in crates in hotel rooms afraid to let them run around and play for fear of messing up their show coat. The worst kennel I ever visited was that of a show breeder and she kept the males outside in a covered, partially enclosed patio area with lots of water, igloo dog houses and hammock beds. There was a misting system for hot days. Her breeding females were in a separate building that I never saw. Then she had her favorites which were "house dogs" inside with her and her family., There is a prejudice too where show breeders talk badly and refuse to associate with "pet breeders" and they want to have us believe that we should not buy from hobby breeders because they do not "follow the standard" or do not know the lineage of their dogs, or are doing it ourely for the money. I think we need to wake up and look at the real reason show breeders bash pet breeders. It is not complimentary for them in my opinion. |
my 2 cents worth there are a few breeders who can run a kennel well with large numbers but to do so they have a Huge staff if you go to a kennel and there are dirty dogs dogs who have poor habbits usually found in not getting out of there kennels on a daily baises poor health. I breed two breeds One i show do agaility and fly ball with one i added on out of love and now am ready to start to show if you breed out of love and devotion of the breed you show rather obd,confermation,Therepy dog, even a CGC award for my toy aussies i do CERF and OFA testing wait three years to make shure there is no sesiure problems and work out of the home so i can be there for the breeding whelping and correct development of the puppies as for making money breeding dont make me laugh my vet just bought a new truck and his wife too and boy she has some bling bling. I guess my point is the more dogs a breeder is the more i want proof that the dogs are not a pay check but a desire to improve the breed. even if the breeding stock is not a pet it deserves proper care and devotion |
good Post Yorkie Momma - I should re-word where Tessa my cocker came from - it WAS a kennel. A loud dirty scary kennel. If I knew then what I know now I probably wouldn't be hand feeding a 9 year old cocker with the worst underbite my vet ever saw. She's my sweetie though and I wouldn't trade her for the world...but she is a KENNEL cocker - and was bred for profit only. I was just so happy to have my first puppy ever and wanted to wisk her away from the noise of that horror of 200 plus unhappy cockers in cages - I never realized I was in a small scale mill. |
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really i think the price of the dog..depends on the part of the country you live in or get it from... like in ok for example..the cost of living is so cheap.. and our vet bills probably arent the same as what they are in say...NY.. just b/c the cost of living is way higher! |
I think we have a puppy mill dog My ds and his gf (who had no right adopting a dog since they can barely take care of themselves) adopted a Yorkie about a year ago from a local pet store. For a variety of reasons, she has ended up spending most of her time with me. She is an example of what can happen. First of all they were ripped off for this dog...I think with financing and all they paid about $1800 and at $60 a month and over 20% interest they will be paying on her forever. I do not believe she is a good example either of a well bred Yorkie (though I am far from an expert). She has huge ears and her body of out of proportion. For that kind of money they could have gotten a superior animal. Worst of all, though is the emotional damage done to this dog...she had tremendous separation anxiety...like nothing Ive ever seen, and even when left home with my two dogs still cries like crazy when I leave her sight. She is the sweetest little thing and I love her so much (I think much more than ds and his gf), but she also has a tendency to be aggressive at times. I just think she is emotionally damaged. So far, physically she seems okay, though I think her breathing is weird but as cute as he is, she would be a hard dog to adopt out at a year old. This is all very minor, I guess, but this is one small example of a puppy mill, pet store animal. Laura |
A very interesting and educational thread. Until such time as governments bring in legislation to limit the number of dogs a breeder can have, ban the sale of animals through pet stores and pet brokers, puppymills will continue to exist. Purchasing animals from a pet store or broker guarantees the continued existence of these facilities. As for purchasing one directly from the puppymill breeder all too often you are doing so with the best of intentions but are ill prepared for what lies ahead over the next 15 years. HIGH VET BILLS and heartache. Any breeder with 30 dogs cannot possibly oversee those animals on a continued basis, consequently many health problems go unnoticed and untreated only to manifest themselves later at the new owners expense. It is for this reason that so many of these dogs end up in shelters and rescue societies. Pet store dogs are usually sold at a greatly reduced price from that which you pay to a reputable breeder. There is a reason for this, it is marketing for the masses. It comes time to have the dog's teeth cared for, hundreds of $$$ and the new owners cannot afford that cost. The dog is then abandoned or left to have it's teeth rot out of it's head. The other thing that causes me great concern is breeders who undertake to provide their own vet care without proper training. ie giving the dogs their shots, docking their tails, neutering their males. Taking the puppies to a licenced vet for these things provides more than just getting shots etc the vet has the opportunity to provide a complete health exam. I for one would never purchase a dog from a breeder who does their own vet care, no matter how many champion show dogs they had produced. Puppymills and mass breeders almost always provide their own vet care, to do otherwise cuts into the profit margin. Backyard breeders for the most part are no different. I've spent 25 years working with the SPCA and have visited far more puppymill, backyard breeders than one heart should ever have to deal with. I've yet to come across even one that was able to adequately provide for the dogs. We should be spending our time and energy on lobbying our respective governments to bring in legislation to eliminate these breeders. We also need legislation to stop the import of these animals. Many of the yorkies you currently see for sale through pet brokers are from south america. |
SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH If I could take some of you guys and show you a REAL PuppyMIll you would never forget it. Forget 50 or 100 dogs.... I can show you 500 to 1000 and more...sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I could show you quite a few like this and break your hearts. True mills are terrible! I also have seen big breeders with maybe a hundred who were clean, neat healthy and truly caring. Believe me there is a world of difference in a mill and a big breeder. :animal36 |
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I do think that it's more important to visit the breeder and see the conditions yourself. If a breeder chooses to sell a dog for $500, it might not necessarily mean they treat the dog any worse than someone who sells their dog for $2000. Also, there are areas of the country where dogs are cheaper than the "average" going price. |
There's also more information on puppymills at our sister site, MillBusters, at: http://www.millbusters.com There are some rather graphic images there of real puppymills, these pictures are not Photoshopped or made up in any way. It's rather disturbing and sick to see. |
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All-in-all, I don't think he lacked care from his breeder or that she was losing any money out of it. More often than not, people of course will add more weight to the price for profit but some breeders (who sell pet quality puppies) may inflate the price more than others. My breeder specifically told me that she also would not want to pay in the thousands for a Yorkie puppy. She started breeding herself so that others who want a great Yorkie will have the luxury of owning one, too. There is a way for a $500 puppy to get the great care it needs. And you can trust me on that one. |
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I think if people were more willing to pay the fair price, there would be more breeders providing the very best care that these dogs deserve. No one wants a puppy who hasn't had the very best care and whose litter mates and mother are not well provided for. We want our puppies and their families to have the best possible start in life. But, if you are looking for a yorkie for less than $500 you are looking for someone who hasn't put that much into the dog or you expect the breeder to lose money on the dog and, imo, that is not fair. I have talked to a lot of breeders and even did a poll on here and discovered that it costs at least that much and usually way more to raise a puppy to 12 weeks of age in a healthy, well cared for way. |
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My point is that the breeder should have spent at least $500 to raise him for you according to the calculations of the breeders we respect on here, so the breeder either lost money on the deal, or maybe broke even if she provided him, his litter mates and his mother proper care. I am not pointing a finger at anyone on here who got a deal on their yorkie but I just feel we need to more fairly compensate the breeders for the job they do. I know I wouldn't do it for any amount of money and most of us who have read the stories and lived through the deliveries via the internet, the ceasareans, etc, understand only SOME of what these courageous people go through. Yorkies are a difficult breed to breed and the puppies are valuable as we all know so high prices shouldn't be a shock as they seem to be on here. JMHO as always. |
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There is liability for the breeder especially in States with Puppy Lemon Laws. Just like human babies, some puppies are less healthy than others and need medical care. It is not always genetic or detectible. |
Anyway...in an attempt to get this thread back on topic and answer Brett's question here is a link to an internet site that tries to answer this question Just What is a Puppymill? http://www.canismajor.com/dog/puppymil.html |
500 dollars as a breeder i dont see how anyone could raise puppies for that price let me see if i can break it down .... one bitch of breed quaility min 1500 one stud 1500 heath check on bitch W blood pannels 80 stud 80 dog food for one breeding pair per year of decent not high quaility lets see 20 dollar a month for 12 months perhaps cheeper so lets say min 150 and if you get just a few treats another 50 so what are we at 3,390 vet checks shots wormer (i do my own shots after years of helping my vet) so two seven way two rabies and wormer for two 80 x2 160+ 3,390 whops forgot about teeth cleaning and grooming ..and even if you brush your dogs teeth and groom for yourself you shold get you dogs teeth cleaned IMHO 80 dollars and thats only if you have the grooming brushes already so now your brood bitch is breed you have to buy supplements and feed puppie food, sonogram and preg checkup now lets get to tail docking i wont consider people who do it them self *eak* 150 for that visit and 30 dollars for sonogram 60 for reg checkup 3,390+160+80 +150+30+60 i do three puppie check ups with one blood pannel but lets keep it easy and do one check up with blood pannle 80 dollars 3,390+160+80 +150+30+60 so for people who do the this at least its about 4,000 dollars there was no xrays or health issues no unknow issues to arise no 800 dollar c-section and i didnt add any toys to help puppies develop babie blankets disenfectent and whelping items some litter i do make money but usually the following litter will suck it dry I am glad that your 500 dollar babies are health i just dont see how anyone can raise a litter for that price If someone can teach me how i would love it ! did i mention no sleep for the breeder |
But if a breeder feels that they CAN charge $500 and they are happy with that, that alone does not make them a bad breeder. There are some breeders that do it for love of the breed, and don't think of it as a money-making enterprise. I don't think they should be penalized in that aspect, I would think that visiting such a breeder would give you an idea of what kind of person they are. That said, I'm sure there are plenty of breeders that sell Yorkies for $500 that DON'T properly take care of their Yorkies to the satisfaction of an average Yorkie owner. But price alone shouldn't automatically qualify a breeder as bad or not giving enough care for their Yorkie litter. We live in a free market, where people are allowed to price Yorkies at whatever they would like, from free to $25,000. If you want to "tip" your Yorkie breeder, or give them more than they are asking, I doubt they would refuse that money. Breeders that price their Yorkies at $500 probably feel that $500 is enough to fairly compensate them for their time and effort in raising that Yorkie, otherwise they would set the price at another level. As far as what a puppymill is, there is no one definition that everyone would agree to. Some people may say a breeder with 12 dogs would be a mill, some people think it has to be over 25. It's clearly subjective, but almost all people would agree that if you have hundreds of dogs in one kennel, that would be considered a puppymill. Others may look at conditions more than the sheer number of dogs at a location to determine whether it's a puppymill. I personally think everyone should have their own definition of what a puppymill is, as there are many variables and aspects to consider. |
puppie mill http://www.millbusters.com/puppymill/index.html here is a great page on what a puppie mill is |
Thank you for posting that information Yorkie Mama. If people are paying $500 for a yorkie they are paying for one that has not had the best possible care and attention. That is not to say they are getting an inferior dog but they should know they are getting what they pay for. I've been there, done that. If you purchase a dog for $500.00 you will not be getting a health certificate with it and your first action should be to take the dog to your vet for a complete check. If you cannot afford to pay $1,000.00 for your dog how pray tell can you afford the vet bills that follow? It is a false economy of savings and one that buyers should not be lured into. |
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