Please read and help

[luv my pet]

Please read starting from the bottom with me emailing breeder first and let me know yout thoughts.





I am sorry for the confusion, but I did tell you they would be fine, and mentioned the knees. There is nothing wrong with their health and I do not believe I misled you about her. Vets have different opinions and mine told me 5%, I have many friends and other breeders and dont know any that actually had to have the surgery. I have never owned one that needed to have the surgery either. My contract states:

Shoshould puppy/dog be determined to be in ill health, the cause of which is clearly attributable to the Seller, or found to have a life threatening genetic illness, the dog may, upon signed written diagnosis from said veterinarian, be returned for refund of the purchase price. The Seller will assume no responsibility if this puppy/dog is not given proper veterinarian care and suffers an adverse reaction. No other guarantees are given.

I feel like I have been honest with you and gave you a very fair price, on her. If you would like to return her to me, I will find her a new home and refund your money (minus the cost of advertising( 14.00 for a weeks add)after I have found her a new home. That is the best I can do for you, and is more than my contract affords you. If you want to return her, I can check with the tech. at the vet, she was interested and I told her no because you had purchased her, but I could check again but no guarantee she might have already purchased one, there are other female available in our area for 1000. for the girls but they are not teacups.
Let me know what you want to do. She is a beautiful little dog, and to me such a small chance is really not a problem. I don't know about your insurance but mine will cover 80% of any surgery she needs in the event that the condition becomes crippling, which I have NEVER SEEN. I have been breeding dogs for over 20 years.

In a message dated 10/14/2008 7:25:11 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, Michelleshome writes:
Hi Annie I do worry my vet told me it's a 20% chance that she will need surgery. I do know about Yorkies because I researched this breed one year before I got my first yorkie and I have had him for over a year so I do know the common heritiary traits. If your vet had looked at her and found this why did you not inform me about this? This would have actually changed my mind with her, don't get me wrong she is very cute and a good puppy but these are things that when you purchase a new yorkie that you need to look for. I love yorkies and I do look at these issues, anyone would have to because it could cause problems in the future health wise and money. My yorkie that I have now does not have that. I do remember you telling me that the mother had stage 1 and father has none but you said that the puppies where fine that they where checked by your vet. Which most of the time they should be but unfortuantly Lexi has already the issue at such a young age which that does concern me. The vet said she would run and walk just fine so it's not something that you would notice just by looking and watching her run and walk it would take a vet to confirm that. I hope you can understand my feelings about this. If both parents have this they should not be breeding because it is genically heritiary.

Thanks
Michelle


-----Original Message-----
From: annievarnadore@aol.com
To: michelleshome@aol.com
Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: Lexi


I told you about that problem when you first looked at her, the knee issue is a common problem in all yorkies... that surgery is only necessary in LESS than 5% of all yorkies and even then only when they reach 10 or more years old. both my dogs have the same issue and it gives them no problems... You saw how active they both were... if they get arthritis when they are older that is easily manageable. I dont know if you remember me talking to you about the loose knee problem the first time you came out or not... I hope you can believe me when I say that surgery is most likely (95%) not going to be necessary. Also the knees are not a life threatening disease, or illness, that I caused or could have prevented. Are you not happy with her? does she exhibit any signs that she cant walk or play? I dont want you to worry about something that might be necessary in 10 years. Like I said you saw my two adults, how active and mobile they were, they both have loose knees. yes I got your fax, and my vet did look for it but as I said before this , loose knees do not pose a life threatening issue and are not and may never be even a health issue. Again please do not worry.





-----Original Message-----
From: michelleshome@aol.com
To: annievarnadore@aol.com
Sent: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 8:14 pm
Subject: Re: Lexi


Yes I have that. Did you get the fax? I sent that over around 5:30 today. I did also take Lexi to the vet and she does have a problem I do not know if your vet looked for it or not. Lexi has slipping knees in her back legs. The vet said that she could need surgery which will be around 1000.00 or so and possible arthritis. I am not sure how we should handle this, please let me know your thoughts. I will get something in writing and fax that to you.

[C C Kent]

After reading the exchange it sounds like the breeder is taking the same position that 95% of breeders out there are going to take. The breeder states that he/she has been breeding for twenty years and that the parents carry a genetic defect that should remove them from any program. These parents are still being used to breed because the defect they reproduce is "Not life threatening". Couple that with the phrase describing the other puppies available for $1000 but are not "teacups." You have a breeder that is steeped in the "pet breeder for profit" market. The culture in this market accepts very low standards in breeding etiquette.


Your breeder sounds like a nice person, and to the breeders credit is offering you a refund with certain stipulations. I personally would accept the terms and return the puppy. Take the money and with due diligence and patience find a breeder that has better practice. JMHO

[luv my pet]

Originally Posted by C C Kent

After reading the exchange it sounds like the breeder is taking the same position that 95% of breeders out there are going to take. The breeder states that he/she has been breeding for twenty years and that the parents carry a genetic defect that should remove them from any program. These parents are still being used to breed because the defect they reproduce is "Not life threatening". Couple that with the phrase describing the other puppies available for $1000 but are not "teacups." You have a breeder that is steeped in the "pet breeder for profit" market. The culture in this market accepts very low standards in breeding etiquette.


Your breeder sounds like a nice person, and to the breeders credit is offering you a refund with certain stipulations. I personally would accept the terms and return the puppy. Take the money and with due diligence and patience find a breeder that has better practice. JMHO

Thank you very much I was kinda nervous posting this. What are the exact problems that could happrn with this knee issue? I have to decide tomorrow and let the breeder know what I want to do.

[Woogie Man]

A much as I understand it, loose knees don't necessarily translate into luxated patellas. I have a male that had 'loose knees' when I first got him at 12 weeks old. His legs firmed up and shows no evidence of loose knees now or LP and he's been checked a couple of times for it. Loose knees MAY indicate future problems though and may develop into LP. What's confusing is the breeder states that the parents have loose knees. Seems like by the time they're adults, the knee should have firmed up or else have progressed to some grade of LP by then. If your puppy is young, there is a good chance they'll firm up if the vet considers them just loose rather than a grade of LP but, if you're uncomfortable with the chance of it correcting itself, you may want to consider taking the breeder's offer of returning the pup. I don't necessarily agree with some of the numbers the breeder stated, but think your vet would be the most help in deciding.

[lucyaboo]

I had Boo Bear, a pom, back in the early 90's. He had one knee that had to be operated on. Back then, it was only about $250.00 for one leg. I had it done & he was fine for the rest of his days. I never intended to breed him & had no reason to give him up. Of course, I had him for a few months before he had trouble with his knee.

Now for the breeder, it's a shame she continues to breed the same dogs, knowing that there pup's have knee defects.

good luck!

[C C Kent]

Originally Posted by luv my pet

Thank you very much I was kinda nervous posting this. What are the exact problems that could happrn with this knee issue? I have to decide tomorrow and let the breeder know what I want to do.

No way to say for sure what is going to happen. It's possible that there would be no need for surgery and the puppy would live out her life normally. The other possibility is that the puppy might need surgery. I have seen adults with luxating patella and very few of them would I personally consider surgery a necessity. In severe cases for example the puppy might cry out during play and have to stop and stretch the leg out to allow the kneecap to go back into position, or may just carry the leg out of habit to keep it from popping out. Good nutrition and a constant watch on body weight are very important to keep the knees from worsening if you decide to keep her. I don't think she's unfit as a pet, but she should be priced well under a puppy without the same problem to allow for the future vet bills.

[bchgirl]

I wanted to point out...her health guarantee isn't much of a guarantee at all. There are many genetic issues while not life threatening...do affect the dog's quality of life.

[tammy8833]

i would take her up on the offer and give the puppy back for a refund

she openly admits to breeding 2 dogs with hereditry leg issues..the puppies is already showing signs of leg problems...whether or not it will clear is a coin toss...

my guess is she hasnt done enough of educating her self in her 20 year business venture...

if she had she would not use the term teacup and state the difference in price for a teacup vs what you purchased and she breeds to dogs with knee issues, yes she is honest about telling you about this as she stated but she was uneducated enough to breed them?

and another thing that bothered me was that why worry about something that is ten years down the road (not the quote but what the breeder was basically saying) my agrument with that is that you dont usually purchase a dog and have to plan for its 10 year knee surgery or arthritic care..yes those things happen...but when you are picking out a puppy thats not a exspense that you are looking for.


i have a question for you...and i mean no offense or disrepect just curious

why did you purchase the puppy after she stated the mother had stage 1 knee issues?

again im just genrally curious and im not starting to start an agrument or sound insensitive.

[MyPeanutAbbyGra]

What a shame for you and the puppy
If it were me, I would have a hard time returning her, but I understand your concern.

I wish you much luck with this.

[pookiebear]

Have you had this puppy long enough to bond with it? If it were me, even taking into consideration of how much the surgery would cost if the puppy were to even need it, if I had already bonded with this puppy I wouldn't be able to let it go. I would be worried that the next person coming along wouldn't take care of this baby like I would. If I loved that baby, I'd take the chance. But that's just me. Everyone is different.

[C C Kent]

Originally Posted by pookiebear

Have you had this puppy long enough to bond with it? If it were me, even taking into consideration of how much the surgery would cost if the puppy were to even need it, if I had already bonded with this puppy I wouldn't be able to let it go. I would be worried that the next person coming along wouldn't take care of this baby like I would. If I loved that baby, I'd take the chance. But that's just me. Everyone is different.

This is a valid point and it goes directly to the reason the breeder is willing to continue to breed parents proven to produce a genetic defect.

This breed is popular almost exclusively with ladies, even more so with those who have a yearning for a baby to care for. This desire is triggered when introduced to a puppy that "Someone else might not care for properly." That nurturing instinct kicks in and suddenly the prospective buyer is on a mission.

I'm not saying that a puppy with perceived special needs is more attractive but it certainly does put the "pity" card into play, and if the puppies continue to sell the parents will be bred again.

No breeding should be repeated unless it produced outstanding puppies.

[pea496]

Originally Posted by C C Kent

This is a valid point and it goes directly to the reason the breeder is willing to continue to breed parents proven to produce a genetic defect.

This breed is popular almost exclusively with ladies, even more so with those who have a yearning for a baby to care for. This desire is triggered when introduced to a puppy that "Someone else might not care for properly." That nurturing instinct kicks in and suddenly the prospective buyer is on a mission.

I'm not saying that a puppy with perceived special needs is more attractive but it certainly does put the "pity" card into play, and if the puppies continue to sell the parents will be bred again.

No breeding should be repeated unless it produced outstanding puppies.

I am going to pretend that I did not see paragraph #2.

[C C Kent]

Originally Posted by pea496

I am going to pretend that I did not see paragraph #2.

UH OH....did I make the kind of mistake that sends my wife away shaking her head?

Allow me to offer a preemtive apology just in case.

[bonnielynn]

Originally Posted by C C Kent

UH OH....did I make the kind of mistake that sends my wife away shaking her head?

Allow me to offer a preemtive apology just in case.

LOL. This just gave me a much needed belly laugh.

As for the situation in question. How difficult and heartbreaking. I don't know what I would do. I don't think I could return the poor thing. So sorry for both you and your puppy.

[Deegan's mom]

Originally Posted by pookiebear

Have you had this puppy long enough to bond with it? If it were me, even taking into consideration of how much the surgery would cost if the puppy were to even need it, if I had already bonded with this puppy I wouldn't be able to let it go. I would be worried that the next person coming along wouldn't take care of this baby like I would. If I loved that baby, I'd take the chance. But that's just me. Everyone is different.

I agree - I would have fallen in love too deeply to be able to give her back to lord knows who. I would talk to my vet and see how likely it is that she would need surgery and maybe start a bank account, socking money away every pay cheque in case it ever comes down to it. I know some people might take the breeders offer up and return her, but I don't think I would be able to do that. To each their own - think about it long & hard, and follow your heart. Good luck & keep us posted.