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12-31-2014, 05:27 PM | #1 |
Yorkie Talker Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Iowa
Posts: 13
| Husband says only way to train Mosbey to come is to use a prong collar!? Let me start by stating, I am no dog trainer. We do not own a prong collar and I am against using one on such a small dog. Mosbey is a year old, he is not obedient and he does not come when called, which can be dangrous for him as he likes to run out the door when people are coming and going, a behavior we would like to change. When we purchased Mosbey, mu husband had stated he could train him, he has trained dogs before such as german Shephards and such for some German competition etc... I think that is great, except Mosbey still pees in a diaper and poops on the bathroom tile. So, I am trying to tackle several undesireable behaviors, but I love Mosbey and I would never part with him, he is the ONLY dog I have ever owned that has gotten away with these behaviors. That being said, my husband is firm in the belief that he can not use positive reinforcement with Mosbey because if he won't come, he can't reward him. I have argued that they should never be used on such a small dog. He counters that he will place it on him behind his legs, I counter that it could cause injury, he has another excuse. So basically, he claims the dog is not trained because I won't "let" him train him, that prong collars are a tool, that I'm apparently out of my mind thinking that a yorkie can most certainly be trained without the use of a prong collar and finally, that if I would just trust him to do it his way, it would work. I stand firm that a prong collar not be used on my 4 pound dog, no matter what. If he can't train a dog without that toll then he must not be that great at it to begin with is my opinion, doesn't matter what he used to do because it isn't happening now, and I would think great dog trainers would have many tools they utilize for different dog personalities etc... Obviously, this is a very heated topic for us and I am looking for some real advice on proven methods that work for a yorkies distinct stubborn characteristics. Thanks in advance. |
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01-01-2015, 07:27 AM | #2 |
YT 2000 Club Donating Member | Stick to your g uns on the prong collar business! They have no business on a Yorkie! And certainly not on their rear end! Good grief. Is it possible you could take Mosley to a trainer yourself New Year lots of classes start up again! You can start a program of training called Nothing in Life is free! NILF - lots of on line videos and help to learn how to train your dog with positive re-inforcemen. Are you saying your dog is not food motivated? Does he not like treats at all? How about toy motivated? Schutzhund training is not for every breed of dog - and certainly I have never seen a Yorkie in that training modality. To teach the Come you have to go back to basics. You teach COME when you have your dog in his harness and on lead/leash. I would either sit on a stool or the ground, have a treat or toy in my hand. Then call Come in a warm uplift tilt to my voice. Show him the toy or treat. If he doesn't come, gently pull in the lead to you. If he then starts to Come on his own, be very happy, when he gets in front of you Reward him. Consistency and repetition are key.
__________________ Razzle and Dara. Our clan. RIP Karma Dec 24th 2004-July 14 2013 RIP Zoey Jun9 th 2008-May 12 2012. RIP Magic,Mar 26 2006July 1st 2018 |
01-01-2015, 09:42 AM | #3 |
I ♥ my girls! Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: With My Yorkies
Posts: 18,980
| Oh my goodness. I would not allow him to do that. I think your best option is to seek out a professional dog trainer. Maybe that will ease the tension between you and your DH as well.
__________________ Momma to three sweet Yorkie girls Rosie Marie, Mikki Leigh , and Lily Mae Grace! |
01-01-2015, 10:39 AM | #4 |
♥ Love My Tibbe! ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: D/FW, Texas
Posts: 22,140
| You will antagonize him and make him wonder why he has to live with you if you use a training element that makes him uncomfortable or scared. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here's a method I've used, copied from another thread, that works every time on any dog if you train persistently and make it fun for the dog: You've got more training to do and after a few more months of training, don't give a treat every time because that is what teaches the dog to expect it and not to come if he sees it's not there. The best way to train a dog is to treat every time but then after some basic training has been established, request that they learn to work for "probably" and it heightens their expectation and hope - things dogs live for. They love to anticipate and wonder what is about to happen. But for now, I would just keep giving treats for the completed recall each time the dog comes until you have been training him for about seven months, then skip to the "probably" mode for the rest of a year of training. That's how long I trained Tibbe with treats every time and then I began to leave them off but just rewarded him with a happy dance, lots of praise and a great deal of excitement when he came to me. When he first got here, this is how we stated training "Come". I would just sit with him right beside me or in my lap and say "Come" and treat him instantly. Over and over. He quickly learned that the word "come" meant an immediate treat. After a couple of weeks of that, I would move a way from him and say come and hold out the treat and he would have to come to me to get it. I moved father and farther away but each time he would come to get his treat - however far he had to come to get what he considered his due. After all, "Come" meant treat and he wanted his "paycheck". In time we moved the whole thing outside and I would sit on the porch with him beside me/in lap and say "come" and treat him immediately and eventually moved farther away, etc., just as above but this time, outside. So he learned that he had to travel a ways to get the treat that "come" meant, whether inside or outside. Still, after many, many months, I would not give him the treat but used one of the above techniques I mentioned above to entice him to come and yet still have a type of "reward" for him - something good or interesting happened once he got to me even if it wasn't a treat. So in time and by the time he'd been trained for a year, together with the herding sessions(explained below) after several months of "come" training, he just automatically learned to come to me when called. It's now so trained in him he can't not come but once in a great while, if something very exciting it happening out in the back, I have to call a second time, show him my closed hand as if there is a treat in it or step toward him as if to start a herding session - and he comes running. It was lots of work and took a while, but my little kennel-crazy, untrained dog learned to come each and every time. I would set him up for success - do things to make him really want to come when I wasn't going to give him a treat - such as crouching down to the floor, turning around and looking over my shoulder, lying down on the ground/floor and singing/kicking my feet or getting something to hold and looking in it as I called him. I would hold and squeak a toy and toss it for him with praise as soon as he came to me - all things that made him curious and actually want to come to see what was happening or going to happen once he got to me. He loves used dryer sheets. I'd hold a dryer sheet & call him. So each time I called him without a treat there was some real reason established for him to want to come to me. In about a year's time, he learned that coming was just plain automatic - no ifs, ands or buts. He just had learned to come for the treat or the curiosity/celebration or inspection of whatever I had and it just taught him over the many months to just do it. Now he comes first time called every time 99 99/100% of the time. If the neighbors are out eating on their patio or a cat is in the ally, he may stay out until I firm up my call or show him my closed hand(which might contain a treat or toy) or take a step toward him. If I take a step toward him, he knows he is about to be herded in. I herded Tibbe into the house during his training when he was being stubborn at times. He knows that if he doesn't come I will go out and herd him inside and he really doesn't like that for some reason. I just get behind him with my hands held out to each side and don't let him go anywhere without my keeping up with him and walking closely behind him until he begins to run inside to stop me doing it. So he has that impetus to come too, though I only actually had to do that one-half dozen times during his training when he was still trying out his stubborn streak. But he hates being herded and hurried from behind and he hates that I can actually cut him off and come after him wherever he goes and herd him in so if I step toward him after calling him, he knows a herding is about to happen and will come running. He knows I won't stop until he goes in the house. And then he always gets a treat or toy or play session. But I only began teaching him about herding after he had learned to trust me completely - trust - another training technique it sometimes took almost an hour at a time to teach. I'd actually lie on the ground and just wait until he would come to me and then treat/reward him but not reach for him or take him inside immediately. We'd just lie there together and in time, he'd come closer and allow me to take him or pet him and play together and eventually say we were going in for "a treat" and he would follow me in. It was slow, unhurried and no pressure. We had to go through this because he was 9 mos. old when I got him, trusted no humans, had spent his whole life outside in a covered cage and was kennel crazy with no socialization skills at all. He just about feared everything - people most of all - so he had to learn trust me first and trust that coming to me was something he did voluntarily and under no pressure at first. We worked on trust for the first 3 months I had him. He would stay across the yard from me and run if I approached him so I had to teach him the trusting, no-pressure, voluntary approach and reward system first. That's how he learned he could trust me and he was NEVER, EVER reproached if he veered off at the last minute and ran away back across the yard. I just had to wait until he would come voluntarily and despite my desire to grab him up and go inside to get out of the rain or sun, I'd just wait and allow him to lie by me and chill, learn to trust nothing bad was about to happen to him. That's one way to develop trust in a wary, anxious dog. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, take a different tact with training your dog and you will find the results will come as your dog learns to trust you and learns that doing what you say will always benefit him most of all. And you will never need to use an aversive-type training technique to get your baby to want to obey you.
__________________ Jeanie and Tibbe One must do the best one can. You may get some marks for a very imperfect answer: you will certainly get none for leaving the question alone. C. S. Lewis |
01-01-2015, 11:02 AM | #5 |
Yorkie mom of 4 Donating YT Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: LaPlata, Md
Posts: 23,247
| Positive training is the only way and if y'all are not sure how to do it maybe you should look for a trainer. If my husband tried to do that and did not listen to me saying no then I would leave him sorry but that's not the way to treat a dog big or small. Can't stand those and choke collars for any dog.
__________________ Taylor My babies Joey, Penny ,Ollie & Dixie Callie Mae, you will forever be in my heart! |
01-01-2015, 06:40 PM | #6 |
Action Jackson ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,814
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__________________ ~ Brit & Lights! Camera! Jackson! CGC ETD TKP ~ Follow Jackson on Instagram: https://instagram.com/jacksontheterrier |
01-01-2015, 09:55 PM | #7 |
Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 5,891
| I only believe in positive reinforcement. Only an excellent trainer with a varied repertoire of training methods should use negative reinforcement only when absolutely necessary, but I am not in favor of negative reinforcement. I found this article very interesting. It was an interview with a neurologist and trainer. It talks about the dangers of prong collars, particularly in breeds who are prone to collapsing trachea. Tails of Seattle | Veterinary Q&A: Prong collars are safe — fact or fiction? | Seattle Times Newspaper
__________________ Lisa and Katie Ashley 6/10, Gracie 2/04, Kiwi 10/03, and Jolie 7/93 . |
01-02-2015, 09:50 AM | #8 |
♥ Maximo and Teddy Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 25,041
| You mentioned that your husband wants to put the prong collar behind Mosbey's legs. Please stand up for Mosbey and do not allow the prong collar either on the neck or behind the legs. I firmly believe that Yorkies in particular respond much better to positive reinforcement training. Regarding the door running -- I thought my boys were trained not to dash out the door. However, all it took was one incident of Teddy running out to chase the UPS truck down the street to convince me to put up a baby gate. We keep the dogs away from the door. The risk just isn't worth it to me. We practice "come" and "stay" in the house and leashed outside. To be honest, I will never trust my boys off leash. We practice for emergencies and accidents of getting loose, and my boys have responded, but I do my best to avoid them getting loose. I accept that most Yorkies are not like other dogs -- not like my cockapoo who walked without a leash and never left our side. For potty training -- ditch the diapers. Do you want to pad train or train for outside?
__________________ Kristin, Max and Teddy |
01-02-2015, 08:59 PM | #9 |
YT Addict Join Date: May 2014 Location: Fishkill, ny, USA
Posts: 487
| Patience and persistence! My older 10lb yorkie is super smart and picked up very well with training but my little guy is only 4lbs and a completely different story! My hubby jokes that he is small minded bc he is just too obsessed with food or treats that it seems as though he is untrainable. I did get him as an older pup...allegedly 10 months old but possibly a bit older. I've had him for almost a year now and he still doesn't know certain things but he has learned a lot! It takes time and kind praising and repetition but they do get it. I don't discipline or use harsh training tactics bc I think they just don't understand it. Also it could cause regression since they will fear you. Last edited by Kerryn915; 01-02-2015 at 09:01 PM. |
01-02-2015, 09:24 PM | #10 |
Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: S. W. Suburbs of Chicago, IL
Posts: 12,235
| Where do you even purchase a prong collar for a Yorkie! geez
__________________ “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” Mark Twain |
01-03-2015, 06:46 AM | #11 | |
YT 2000 Club Donating Member | Quote:
The good German prong collars are adjustable! You just take out the links or add to make them larger or smaller And I will re-iterate prong collars are NEVER for Yorkies or for that matter any toy breed. Most folks don't know how to use them, including what passes for sales reps in pet stores! Heck most don't know how to fit a harness correctly - nor a life jacket For those large breed owners on here, you want to use a prong collar, my advice is go to a working dog trainer and learn how to use them correctly! They need to be fitted correctly on the neck, and the correction is a quick snap not a bloody pull back. And most owners need to learn this - also the most effective correction depends upon your timing - just as your dog is about to *go* for it - you correct, with words and action! You are not entering into a tug of war with your dog. I walked Magic for almost 2years double collared, one flat collar on lead, one prong collar on training handle. The prong is only used for training sessions and that includes walks. You remove it in the house, you remove all collars when you crate your dog!
__________________ Razzle and Dara. Our clan. RIP Karma Dec 24th 2004-July 14 2013 RIP Zoey Jun9 th 2008-May 12 2012. RIP Magic,Mar 26 2006July 1st 2018 | |
01-03-2015, 10:41 AM | #12 |
Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: USA
Posts: 4,285
| If you follow your husband thinking you will end up with a dog who will NEVER. Come when called and will become extremely distrusting. Ask your husband what he would like more - to be called and given something good from you or called and punched in the nose! Which one would he most look forward to the next time you called him!
__________________ . Cali , and Cali's keeper and staff, Jay No, not a "mini" Yorkie - She loves to motor in her Mini Cooper car |
01-03-2015, 11:48 AM | #13 |
Yorkie Talker Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Iowa
Posts: 13
| Thank you all All of your input has helped. And please do understand, everyone, I would never allow a prong on my dog and I don't like prong or choke collars on any dog. I believe that they have a place with highly qualified people in only certain situations. That being said, we are using the learn to earn method and are going back to tethering him to my side at all times. Some of you gave very insightful information and others simply made me laugh or reinforced my stance on this issue, thank you all! |
01-03-2015, 12:12 PM | #14 |
Yorkie Talker Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Iowa
Posts: 13
| Thank you for your input. I want to ensure everyone that such a collar will never be on my dog. hubby just says do it yourself, so guess what, I will. it is strange because he loves Mo so much but has a bit of trouble with constructive criticism:O |
01-03-2015, 03:59 PM | #15 |
Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,946
| A dog that doesn't want to come to you on any level if frightened would be very difficult to teach the 'come' command. I'm not saying your Yorkie is but could be if you try to use this method. I remember working with my first Yorkie by letting her know that I had a piece of cheese in the hand that I held the leash. She just realized following it that she was walking at her own pace with no stops or pulls to get somewhere else, it worked beautifully. I usually carried a full square of cheese so she could see it but half way through the walk, I gave her a small piece as a treat and then at the end of the walk as well. These dogs are so smart and want to please in most cases. Crystal had her championship and was used to a lease but I trained her to visit the Children at our Children's Hospital and that was intensive training. She was so laid back like some of the Labs that is was easy. Believe me the cheese idea was my own, no trainer taught me to do it that way but it worked for me.
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