Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat - YorkieTalk.com Forums

livingdustmops · 06-30-2009, 03:52 PM

Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat

Science News Share Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat
ScienceDaily (May 25, 2009) — A new study shows how the behaviour of dogs has been misunderstood for generations: in fact using misplaced ideas about dog behaviour and training is likely to cause rather than cure unwanted behaviour. The findings challenge many of the dominance related interpretations of behaviour and training techniques suggested by current TV dog trainers.

Contrary to popular belief, aggressive dogs are NOT trying to assert their dominance over their canine or human “pack”, according to research published by academics at the University of Bristol’s Department of Clinical Veterinary Sciences in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research.

The researchers spent six months studying dogs freely interacting at a Dogs Trust rehoming centre, and reanalysing data from studies of feral dogs, before concluding that individual relationships between dogs are learnt through experience rather than motivated by a desire to assert “dominance”.

The study shows that dogs are not motivated by maintaining their place in the pecking order of their pack, as many well-known dog trainers preach.

Far from being helpful, the academics say, training approaches aimed at “dominance reduction” vary from being worthless in treatment to being actually dangerous and likely to make behaviours worse.

Instructing owners to eat before their dog or go through doors first will not influence the dog’s overall perception of the relationship – merely teach them what to expect in these specific situations. Much worse, techniques such as pinning the dog to the floor, grabbing jowls, or blasting hooters at dogs will make dogs anxious, often about their owner, and potentially lead to an escalation of aggression.

Dr Rachel Casey, Senior Lecturer in Companion Animal Behaviour and Welfare at Bristol University, said: “The blanket assumption that every dog is motivated by some innate desire to control people and other dogs is frankly ridiculous. It hugely underestimates the complex communicative and learning abilities of dogs. It also leads to the use of coercive training techniques, which compromise welfare, and actually cause problem behaviours.

“In our referral clinic we very often see dogs which have learnt to show aggression to avoid anticipated punishment. Owners are often horrified when we explain that their dog is terrified of them, and is showing aggression because of the techniques they have used – but its not their fault when they have been advised to do so, or watched unqualified ‘behaviourists’ recommending such techniques on TV.”

At Dogs Trust, the UK’s largest dog welfare charity, rehoming centre staff see the results of misguided dog training all the time. Veterinary Director Chris Laurence MBE, added: “We can tell when a dog comes in to us which has been subjected to the ‘dominance reduction technique’ so beloved of TV dog trainers. They can be very fearful, which can lead to aggression towards people.

“Sadly, many techniques used to teach a dog that his owner is leader of the pack is counter-productive; you won’t get a better behaved dog, but you will either end up with a dog so fearful it has suppressed all its natural behaviours and will just do nothing, or one so aggressive it’s dangerous to be around.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Journal reference:

John W.S., Bradshaw , Emily J., Blackwell , Rachel A., Casey. Dominance in domestic dogs -- useful construct or bad habit? Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research, May/June 2009, Pages 135-144 [link]
Adapted from materials provided by University of Bristol.

QuickSilver · 06-30-2009, 06:53 PM

Very interesting. I've always wondered about going through doors first. I actually prefer for Thor to go first so I can make sure he doesn't get crushed when it swings closed. However, I've noticed that he usually defers and tries to let me go first.

I think it maybe simply be the discipline of telling the dog what to do - go first, go second, it's a rule you are enforcing.

Also, when I dogsat with Thor and another dog, while that dog did not aggressively display dominance, he did insist on walking in front of Thor. It was kind of funny. Thor would get very upset when this other dog passed him, but he wouldn't have the nerve to move ahead. During the walk, he would make periodic attempts to regain his position, but the other dog would just hip-check him and he'd move back into line.

YorkieMother · 07-02-2009, 06:11 PM

Well you know how I feel about this article.
Nice to see you around again. Lovonhdust mops... looks like an article I would post.... dog news front on stand by for me to take in a new boy.

Doors... going first. how do you get them in the car if you have to go first. through doors. or into a kennel it says doors and they mean all doors.

safety.. I want my dog inside as we come in from outside before I step through the door and leave her behind to face what ever may be coming up our tail ends. Out sure unless she is going into a contained area I rather step out first again for safty and see what may be outside.

eating after us... in a faminy as a dog unit is and a wolf family is... the family eats as a unit. it be like a human family having to eat while the father eats then the mother and on down the line. Silliness really.

Yelling in a dogs face to gain control nine times out of ten just teaches a dog to be afraid....

Most aggression is fear baed or lack of god soical skills and not a need to take over the rule and the setting up of arountine helps them feel safe and less in need to control that which they see as out of control.

Looks like not just the vet boys that I posted got bashed over from the states are saying domince crap neeeds to go. Oh oh that domince stuff is the way that fellow on TV traines and looky looky someone else saying it is wrong.
Dominace is the lazy mans way to explain away our faults in training and blame it on the dog instead of the person that is doing the training.

JL

YorkieMother · 07-02-2009, 06:34 PM

Have you seen this article my beloved vet sent it to me on a bad day of dealing with crazy owners and my least like trainer.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...ification.html

JL

livingdustmops · 07-04-2009, 06:57 AM

Hi Joy - I was going to send you these articles over the weekend as I knew you would be interested. One more educated resource to help us with some of our dogs.

It is always amazing to me that people will still train in the "old" ways when it clearly could be harming dogs. I am doing research on what determines personalities in dogs (some is genetics and some is envioronment) and how this can help rescue dogs that have been abused.

I really wish more people would study behavior in their dogs to help them overcome different situations. Watching a tv show is a short cut that could harm your dog if you don't understand fear aggression, negative reinforcement to name two. I doubt many people know that Cesar runs his problem dogs 6 to 8 hours a day....any dog would be well behaved if they are exhausted at the end of the day. I bought all his books/DVD's so I can learn more but at the end of the day I picked up a few things but for my Yorkies I would never use his methods. I prefer positive training and trying to understand the genetic makeup of a dog.

JoeyP · 07-06-2009, 11:50 AM

The reason why "dominance" reduction training is bad is because if you train your dog with aggression you're going to GET aggression back

But to understand how a dog socializes with other dogs and interacts with humans and not understand that they are trying to understand their Place
in a dominance heirarchy is missing a huge chunk of their innate behavior

YorkieMother · 07-13-2009, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Hi Joy - I was going to send you these articles over the weekend as I knew you would be interested. One more educated resource to help us with some of our dogs.

It is always amazing to me that people will still train in the "old" ways when it clearly could be harming dogs. I am doing research on what determines personalities in dogs (some is genetics and some is envioronment) and how this can help rescue dogs that have been abused.

I really wish more people would study behavior in their dogs to help them overcome different situations. Watching a tv show is a short cut that could harm your dog if you don't understand fear aggression, negative reinforcement to name two. I doubt many people know that Cesar runs his problem dogs 6 to 8 hours a day....any dog would be well behaved if they are exhausted at the end of the day. I bought all his books/DVD's so I can learn more but at the end of the day I picked up a few things but for my Yorkies I would never use his methods. I prefer positive training and trying to understand the genetic makeup of a dog.

If you are looking into the genetics of aggression have a look at Sophi yins work it on line somewhere and she out of Califaonia she with others are running DNA markers for fear through pure breed lines and fears is the starter of aggression as you know.

Also a book by fuller and scott on genetics and stages of develpoment... let me know I can send you the title..working on no sleep for five days can not find it in my brain right now.
I am about I hope to take on a big boy dog that has fear concerns and mold compared to my girl aggersion do to poor soical skills. I hope.
What is not also under stood is that dogs that tired can react with more fear as the brain can not process input as well as if they are not over tired.
also that they are more mentally fragil if exhausted and rough stuff can do more harm... just like prisoners being questions are not allow rest and get fragil.

I can not read his stuff and find it not worth it but I do turn down the volume on the show and watch the body language. learn a great deal from it all the time.

Miss talking to you if I get this new one will need to talk a little he is reading body language wise off..he does one thing but his body says another but will see more as he settles in.

JL

YorkieMother · 07-13-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyP

The reason why "dominance" reduction training is bad is because if you train your dog with aggression you're going to GET aggression back

But to understand how a dog socializes with other dogs and interacts with humans and not understand that they are trying to understand their Place
in a dominance heirarchy is missing a huge chunk of their innate behavior

Right on the first part you get what you put out.

Dogs interaction with dogs is one thing and it is a family and familys are not heirarchy based.
Niether should healthy human families either.

one day, dad may take the lead and say we are all going to the park but mum decides supper and the kids decide the tv shows. Next day kids decide to go swimming. Dad decides supper and Mum takes the day off. Next day things switch again...

that is fluid, changing and should be flexable control.

in domiacnce training you are the boss. the dog does as it is told or else... the or else is what ever from time out to a beating. But it is not allowed to ask for its needs to be meet.
it does not allowing that dog a bad day for being sick or not comfortable with something or just not wanting to or not able to.

Other thing is if you read a dogs body language wrong you can hurt a dog mentally faster on domince training then postive as you do not give them an out. Ceser does not read body language well enough to be using that kind of training.

There is a great deal of inmate behaviour but if you alway chalk it up to oh he out to take over then you loose a great deal in what is really going on.

with postive you go slow enough to make changes as the dog needs and you do not plow throough them just to get a job done.

You tend to get a dog that is happier and more willing to work and lives longer.

JL

livingdustmops · 07-13-2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

If you are looking into the genetics of aggression have a look at Sophi yins work it on line somewhere and she out of Califaonia she with others are running DNA markers for fear through pure breed lines and fears is the starter of aggression as you know.

Also a book by fuller and scott on genetics and stages of develpoment... let me know I can send you the title..working on no sleep for five days can not find it in my brain right now.
I am about I hope to take on a big boy dog that has fear concerns and mold compared to my girl aggersion do to poor soical skills. I hope.
What is not also under stood is that dogs that tired can react with more fear as the brain can not process input as well as if they are not over tired.
also that they are more mentally fragil if exhausted and rough stuff can do more harm... just like prisoners being questions are not allow rest and get fragil.

I can not read his stuff and find it not worth it but I do turn down the volume on the show and watch the body language. learn a great deal from it all the time.

Miss talking to you if I get this new one will need to talk a little he is reading body language wise off..he does one thing but his body says another but will see more as he settles in.

JL

Fascinating.....yes send me names and titles...please...and get some sleep..

Marilize · 07-13-2009, 08:46 PM

I agree with what the others have said, but I just want to add that dogs still need leaders. You are not meant to have a boss/slave relationship, but you are responsible for being the leader.

I disagree greatly with any negative training and I am a great fan of clicker training, but I still think that the leader thing has great value to it.

For example, when I had problems with Cash in his teenage phase, I started putting his food down for 15 minutes and then taking it away again, whether he eats or not. This helped so much that I can't say that there is no merit in the leader-idea.

Personally, I would never hurt my dogs to get them to do what I want. I just get out the clicker and they are the most obedient dogs ever. I think that dominating your dog is very wrong and very dangerous.

Positive training is much more effective and safe.

mimimomo · 07-13-2009, 10:18 PM

Whenever we go for a walk, Momo insists that we walk together. If Mimi is walking w/my mom or dad, & we are ahead of them, he'll put on his brakes (literally, he'll stop & hold his ground w/all fours) & wait til they catch up. We always say he's such a little gentleman.

Mimi won't go through a door unless told that it's ok. I didn't even train her to do that (not that I know how).

YorkieMother · 07-16-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Fascinating.....yes send me names and titles...please...and get some sleep..

Give me a few days..moving and books are packed and once I am moved I will have an internet contection again full time....yippy

JL

YorkieMother · 07-27-2009, 10:14 PM

Sorry this took so long to get back to.

Books

Dog Behaviour- The Genetic Basics by Fuller and Scott

Dogs, a New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behaviour and Evolution by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger

JL

06-30-2009, 03:52 PM	#1
livingdustmops Princess Poop A Lot Donating Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,728	Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat Science News Share Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat ScienceDaily (May 25, 2009) — A new study shows how the behaviour of dogs has been misunderstood for generations: in fact using misplaced ideas about dog behaviour and training is likely to cause rather than cure unwanted behaviour. The findings challenge many of the dominance related interpretations of behaviour and training techniques suggested by current TV dog trainers. Contrary to popular belief, aggressive dogs are NOT trying to assert their dominance over their canine or human “pack”, according to research published by academics at the University of Bristol’s Department of Clinical Veterinary Sciences in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research. The researchers spent six months studying dogs freely interacting at a Dogs Trust rehoming centre, and reanalysing data from studies of feral dogs, before concluding that individual relationships between dogs are learnt through experience rather than motivated by a desire to assert “dominance”. The study shows that dogs are not motivated by maintaining their place in the pecking order of their pack, as many well-known dog trainers preach. Far from being helpful, the academics say, training approaches aimed at “dominance reduction” vary from being worthless in treatment to being actually dangerous and likely to make behaviours worse. Instructing owners to eat before their dog or go through doors first will not influence the dog’s overall perception of the relationship – merely teach them what to expect in these specific situations. Much worse, techniques such as pinning the dog to the floor, grabbing jowls, or blasting hooters at dogs will make dogs anxious, often about their owner, and potentially lead to an escalation of aggression. Dr Rachel Casey, Senior Lecturer in Companion Animal Behaviour and Welfare at Bristol University, said: “The blanket assumption that every dog is motivated by some innate desire to control people and other dogs is frankly ridiculous. It hugely underestimates the complex communicative and learning abilities of dogs. It also leads to the use of coercive training techniques, which compromise welfare, and actually cause problem behaviours. “In our referral clinic we very often see dogs which have learnt to show aggression to avoid anticipated punishment. Owners are often horrified when we explain that their dog is terrified of them, and is showing aggression because of the techniques they have used – but its not their fault when they have been advised to do so, or watched unqualified ‘behaviourists’ recommending such techniques on TV.” At Dogs Trust, the UK’s largest dog welfare charity, rehoming centre staff see the results of misguided dog training all the time. Veterinary Director Chris Laurence MBE, added: “We can tell when a dog comes in to us which has been subjected to the ‘dominance reduction technique’ so beloved of TV dog trainers. They can be very fearful, which can lead to aggression towards people. “Sadly, many techniques used to teach a dog that his owner is leader of the pack is counter-productive; you won’t get a better behaved dog, but you will either end up with a dog so fearful it has suppressed all its natural behaviours and will just do nothing, or one so aggressive it’s dangerous to be around.” -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Journal reference: John W.S., Bradshaw , Emily J., Blackwell , Rachel A., Casey. Dominance in domestic dogs -- useful construct or bad habit? Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research, May/June 2009, Pages 135-144 [link] Adapted from materials provided by University of Bristol. __________________ Cindy & The Rescued Gang Puppies Are Not Products!

06-30-2009, 06:53 PM	#2
QuickSilver Thor's Human Donating Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 5,929 Blog Entries: 31	Very interesting. I've always wondered about going through doors first. I actually prefer for Thor to go first so I can make sure he doesn't get crushed when it swings closed. However, I've noticed that he usually defers and tries to let me go first. I think it maybe simply be the discipline of telling the dog what to do - go first, go second, it's a rule you are enforcing. Also, when I dogsat with Thor and another dog, while that dog did not aggressively display dominance, he did insist on walking in front of Thor. It was kind of funny. Thor would get very upset when this other dog passed him, but he wouldn't have the nerve to move ahead. During the walk, he would make periodic attempts to regain his position, but the other dog would just hip-check him and he'd move back into line. __________________ If you love something, set it free. Unless it's an angry tiger. Last edited by QuickSilver; 06-30-2009 at 06:55 PM.

07-02-2009, 06:11 PM	#3
YorkieMother YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: North Posts: 1,324	Well you know how I feel about this article. Nice to see you around again. Lovonhdust mops... looks like an article I would post.... dog news front on stand by for me to take in a new boy. Doors... going first. how do you get them in the car if you have to go first. through doors. or into a kennel it says doors and they mean all doors. safety.. I want my dog inside as we come in from outside before I step through the door and leave her behind to face what ever may be coming up our tail ends. Out sure unless she is going into a contained area I rather step out first again for safty and see what may be outside. eating after us... in a faminy as a dog unit is and a wolf family is... the family eats as a unit. it be like a human family having to eat while the father eats then the mother and on down the line. Silliness really. Yelling in a dogs face to gain control nine times out of ten just teaches a dog to be afraid.... Most aggression is fear baed or lack of god soical skills and not a need to take over the rule and the setting up of arountine helps them feel safe and less in need to control that which they see as out of control. Looks like not just the vet boys that I posted got bashed over from the states are saying domince crap neeeds to go. Oh oh that domince stuff is the way that fellow on TV traines and looky looky someone else saying it is wrong. Dominace is the lazy mans way to explain away our faults in training and blame it on the dog instead of the person that is doing the training. JL __________________ "The truth about an animal is far more beautiful than all the myths woven about it." Konrad Loranz Last edited by YorkieMother; 07-02-2009 at 06:13 PM.

07-02-2009, 06:34 PM	#4
YorkieMother YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: North Posts: 1,324	Have you seen this article my beloved vet sent it to me on a bad day of dealing with crazy owners and my least like trainer. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...ification.html JL __________________ "The truth about an animal is far more beautiful than all the myths woven about it." Konrad Loranz

07-04-2009, 06:57 AM	#5
livingdustmops Princess Poop A Lot Donating Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,728	Hi Joy - I was going to send you these articles over the weekend as I knew you would be interested. One more educated resource to help us with some of our dogs. It is always amazing to me that people will still train in the "old" ways when it clearly could be harming dogs. I am doing research on what determines personalities in dogs (some is genetics and some is envioronment) and how this can help rescue dogs that have been abused. I really wish more people would study behavior in their dogs to help them overcome different situations. Watching a tv show is a short cut that could harm your dog if you don't understand fear aggression, negative reinforcement to name two. I doubt many people know that Cesar runs his problem dogs 6 to 8 hours a day....any dog would be well behaved if they are exhausted at the end of the day. I bought all his books/DVD's so I can learn more but at the end of the day I picked up a few things but for my Yorkies I would never use his methods. I prefer positive training and trying to understand the genetic makeup of a dog. __________________ Cindy & The Rescued Gang Puppies Are Not Products!

07-06-2009, 11:50 AM	#6
JoeyP YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Miami, FL,USA Posts: 1,005	The reason why "dominance" reduction training is bad is because if you train your dog with aggression you're going to GET aggression back But to understand how a dog socializes with other dogs and interacts with humans and not understand that they are trying to understand their Place in a dominance heirarchy is missing a huge chunk of their innate behavior __________________ Mike and Zach's Dadd

07-13-2009, 08:46 PM	#10
Marilize YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Cape town, South Africa Posts: 703	I agree with what the others have said, but I just want to add that dogs still need leaders. You are not meant to have a boss/slave relationship, but you are responsible for being the leader. I disagree greatly with any negative training and I am a great fan of clicker training, but I still think that the leader thing has great value to it. For example, when I had problems with Cash in his teenage phase, I started putting his food down for 15 minutes and then taking it away again, whether he eats or not. This helped so much that I can't say that there is no merit in the leader-idea. Personally, I would never hurt my dogs to get them to do what I want. I just get out the clicker and they are the most obedient dogs ever. I think that dominating your dog is very wrong and very dangerous. Positive training is much more effective and safe. __________________ Cash & Orio RIP Beautiful Joni

07-13-2009, 10:18 PM	#11
mimimomo Don't Litter Spay&Neuter Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 9,874	Interesting article, & it makes sense. Whenever we go for a walk, Momo insists that we walk together. If Mimi is walking w/my mom or dad, & we are ahead of them, he'll put on his brakes (literally, he'll stop & hold his ground w/all fours) & wait til they catch up. We always say he's such a little gentleman. Mimi won't go through a door unless told that it's ok. I didn't even train her to do that (not that I know how). __________________ Jenny Mimi Momo Princess Turbo Madan Pin Brush: www.toplinepet.com

07-27-2009, 10:14 PM	#13
YorkieMother YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: North Posts: 1,324	Sorry this took so long to get back to. Books Dog Behaviour- The Genetic Basics by Fuller and Scott Dogs, a New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behaviour and Evolution by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger JL __________________ "The truth about an animal is far more beautiful than all the myths woven about it." Konrad Loranz