Wath you think about docked tails??

[yorkietalkjilly]

I can't speak for all, of course, but personally, I am much more concerned about decreasing my dog's chances of injury than I am his looks. And since this is such an opinionated and free forum, I don't think anyone who wanted a dog's tail docked soley for "looks" would have any fear whatsoever of stating their opinions such as those that groom a dog a certain way or use clothing and bows for looks and fun, where keeping warm is not a concern, aren't afraid to post their true feelings and thoughts. A lot of things discussed on this forum are done with aesthetics in mind and no one seems concerned about that aspect of enjoying our pets.

I have never had a Yorkie that wasn't "ratter-minded" - who went after his "prey" first and thought later. This quality is what I worry about with my Yorkies. They are reckless and don't seem to use the judgment of larger dogs when presented with any sudden situation. While outside, my Tibbe and my son's 87 lb. American Bulldog will see something and in a heartbeat, Tibbe is gone running, as Tex, the larger dog, stays in place a bit longer before any quest. And Tex doesn't always run in pursuit of any unusual noise or animal - Tibbe chases everything! I think Tibbe would chase a squirrel or cat through, under, around and over anything and suffer any injury without thought during the chase. Personally, I am so glad he's got no long, skinny tail or dew claws that he could hurt should he ever get lost or out on the loose.

And as I saw my 3 lb. Jilly being attacked so viciously(and yes, she initiated the fight because I was at the time ignorant of dog body language), she escaped a big bite attempt due to no tail, I am convinced. I had just pulled her loose from the big dog with the leash and she was suspended in the air as I fought the 65 lb. dog off with a walking stick and he was still grabbing at her with his mouth despite my blows. I saw her tiny butt swing past his open mouth - just. Had she had a little tail sticking out - who knows - those jaws were snapping viciously. Had he caught a tiny tail in that mouth, it would be snapped and chewed like a twig in a heartbeat. Adding tail surgery to her other surgical issues would have kept her under anesthesia that much longer and her recovery that much more complicated. At that moment, before and since, I haven't cared a whit for looks in comparison to safety but keeping my baby as safe and trouble free as I can is truly a huge concern with somebody like me. Yes, I worry about too many things, no doubt. But any little edge I can give my little reckless and impetuous Yorkie's as they live their lives is worth it to me and deserves my serious consideration. These little guys are still true terriers at heart and do not seem to care that they are small and often fragile in comparison to many other dogs and other animals they go after.

[caw]

I like the docked tail on yorkies

[Britster]

I did not say there was anything wrong with liking docked tails aesthetically. That was my whole point - that I wish people would just admit that docking tails is for looks only. I just don't think possible injury is a good enough reason so let's just admit that we simply prefer the look better My full tailed and dew-claw attached yorkie gets by just fine chasing squirrels, rabbits, swimming, doing agility, climbing, and everything else and I am not the least bit worried that his tail is going to cause him more possible injury than any docked tailed dog - no more than I'd be worried that he's going to break his leg more than any other dog. I just think the odds are probably about the same... if that makes sense... I don't think just because he has a tail and dew claws that his chances for injury are any greater to be honest and it's not something I worry about.

[yorkietalkjilly]

I think most people are being honest and do speak up about what they really feel here.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Britster

I did not say there was anything wrong with liking docked tails aesthetically. That was my whole point - that I wish people would just admit that docking tails is for looks only. I just don't think possible injury is a good enough reason so let's just admit that we simply prefer the look better My full tailed and dew-claw attached yorkie gets by just fine chasing squirrels, rabbits, swimming, doing agility, climbing, and everything else and I am not the least bit worried that his tail is going to cause him more possible injury than any docked tailed dog - no more than I'd be worried that he's going to break his leg more than any other dog. I just think the odds are probably about the same... if that makes sense...

I don't think it is for looks only, why would "working dogs" be exempt from the no docking rule? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and even though the Yorkie is thought to be a beautiful dog, the standard did not develop because of looks. The docked tail was used to pull them out of cave tunnels when they searched for rats. You can't decide that standard needs to be changed just because some dogs with a full tail haven't had theirs broken.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I don't think it is for looks only, why would "working dogs" be exempt from the no docking rule? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and even though the Yorkie is thought to be a beautiful dog, the standard did not develop because of looks. The docked tail was used to pull them out of cave tunnels when they searched for rats. You can't decide that standard needs to be changed just because some dogs with a full tail haven't had theirs broken.

Because show me a true working Yorkshire Terrier in 2012. At one point, they were used as ratters... which, to me, is a good reason to have a docked tail, it makes sense. You don't want rats grabbing onto the tail, and as you said, they could be pulled out of cave tunnels. I highly doubt anyone is pulling their Yorkie up by their tail anymore, and certainly doubt that Yorkies are being released into territories full of rats, mice, etc, to kill them... therefore, I see docking in the year 2012 as being simply for looks! Which is fine But every thread I ever see about tail docking I see people trying to make up good reasons for it, and TO ME (IMO) it's for looks. I didn't say I wanted the standard changed - I don't think there should be a law in the US to ban the process. I think it's the owners choice and preference.

[yorkietalkjilly]

What makes you think posters on YT are suddenly so dishonest in posting what we really think on just this subject?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Britster

Because show me a true working Yorkshire Terrier in 2012. At one point, they were used as ratters... which, to me, is a good reason to have a docked tail, it makes sense. You don't want rats grabbing onto the tail, and as you said, they could be pulled out of cave tunnels. I highly doubt anyone is pulling their Yorkie up by their tail anymore, and certainly doubt that Yorkies are being released into territories full of rats, mice, etc, to kill them... therefore, I see docking in the year 2012 as being simply for looks! Which is fine But every thread I ever see about tail docking I see people trying to make up good reasons for it, and TO ME (IMO) it's for looks. I didn't say I wanted the standard changed - I don't think there should be a law in the US to ban the process. I think it's the owners choice and preference.

Let me assure you, I’m not making things up; you seem to want to believe it’s for looks only. I don’t even think docking is “prettier,” do you? My argument is it's shouldn't even be about looks. I'm saying that if docked tails were only for looks, then they would not have the rule where working dogs would be exempt from the no docking rule. So that means that they know that a full tail can carry more risk. This is all breeds, not just Yorkies. Remember though, not all breeds had the need to ever get their tails docked, some had thick enough tails to begin with. They probably broke many a Yorkie's tail, before they put docking into standard. Members of the YTCA are supposed to "protect" standard, not to change just because the public demands something. I do know that you can't change standard and not have some type a backlash. Breeders never had to take "thinness of tail" into account when choosing breeding dogs. Also, isn’t Jackson a little bigger than standard, his tail is probably thicker than most Yorkies; it may be misleading to just take your own personal experience as the fact. There is a reason why every standard developed, the breeds that are in danger are in danger because they continued to change standard to suit the public’s buying whims. Regarding you wanting examples of Yorkies working, you may be interested to know that the YTCA is working to obtain approval for the Yorkie to be admitted to the Earthdog trials. So climbing through tunnels and chasing rats may be what more and more Yorkies are doing.

EARTHDOG

The Yorkie, even though thought of as a lap dog, can enjoy running through a tunnel to find the rat. Yorkshire Terriers are not at this time approved to enter AKC Earthdog tests, but the YTCA is working to obtain approval for this spunky little breed. Most local terrier clubs can provide more information in this area.http://ytca.org/obedience_activities.pdf

See this for more information on Earthdog events. American Kennel Club - Earthdog

[shelimcallister]

I searched the internet to find out some more information on this issue and I found out that there is a "Council for Docked Breeds".

Their website has pictures and stories of tail injuries on dogs who did not have their tails docked (considered to be "docked breeds"). There were not any examples of Yorkies though...of course!!!!
http://www.cdb.org/http://www.cdb.or...ers.htm#boxer1

I thought the authenticity of some of the letters were questionable. I knew this was a touchy issue but never knew there was a council. LOL!!!

I enjoyed this thread. Thanks!

[Carmeow]

I want to get anothher yorkie a couple of years from now. Do yall think if I find a breeder BEFORE the litter is born I could ask her not to dock the one I want's tail? Or is that rude, if shes always docked? I honestly wish Luma had her tail and dont want another tail lost if I have a say in it.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Carmeow

I want to get anothher yorkie a couple of years from now. Do yall think if I find a breeder BEFORE the litter is born I could ask her not to dock the one I want's tail? Or is that rude, if shes always docked? I honestly wish Luma had her tail and dont want another tail lost if I have a say in it.

I'm sure you can find a breeder who will comply with your wishes. There are many who don't do tails and dewclaws. I personally would want the dewclaws done, even if the tail wasn't done. We've have had several people write threads about a dewclaw being torn off, it's really easy to catch it on things.

[gemy]

Brit you have brought up some interesting points. It is why I so appreciate YT, to read points of view that are different to mine.

Magic's water rescue work would go a lot easier if he had a long tail like the Newfies do, so the person could grab onto his tail. I get that and see that.

There is according to Dr Chris Zinc and some slo mo videos she showed us; a real use the dogs put a long tail to in doing some agility things; like weaves, and even the teeter. Also the dew claws come into play here as well.

The BRT's were designed from the getgo; to be a guard and protect dog. To work close in to their owner/handler, and quite simply to guard against men. They are quite simply designed to be a man stopper. Not designed to chase prey, or guard or herd flock. Most guard and protect dogs (not all of course) have their tails docked for reasons that have nothing to do with aesthetics. In particular when guarding against an intelligent species like man, a long tail is a lovely grab hold to be latched onto.

I think there is a real risk of injury to a long tailed dog. I have seen some studies on this. And for me with owning one long tailed gal, who at this point in her health, would not survive any surgery, I am ultra cautious of her tail and inadvertent injury to same. I am worried enough about this, that I've taken to always having treats in my pocket, so that when I come home, I can immediately treat her into a sit/stay, cause our front hallway is narrow, and her tail beats a staccato on the walls when I arrive home.

Back to Yorkies though, a good working breed like a Yorkie, can and often is multi-faceted. IN fact this summer, Magic and Razzle will both be taking their herding trial test. So while originally bred as ratters this breed can do a whole lot of other things as well. I do suspect that Razzle if I brought him out into field trial training, would be a great bird "flusher", and you bet I'm glad he doesn't have a full tail, if we decide to train in that.
Razzle unfortunately is too small to do water rescue work, although I'm confident he could pull a duck in. I shall have to see how much weight he could pull in this summer.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by gemy

Brit you have brought up some interesting points. It is why I so appreciate YT, to read points of view that are different to mine.

Magic's water rescue work would go a lot easier if he had a long tail like the Newfies do, so the person could grab onto his tail. I get that and see that.

There is according to Dr Chris Zinc and some slo mo videos she showed us; a real use the dogs put a long tail to in doing some agility things; like weaves, and even the teeter. Also the dew claws come into play here as well.

The BRT's were designed from the getgo; to be a guard and protect dog. To work close in to their owner/handler, and quite simply to guard against men. They are quite simply designed to be a man stopper. Not designed to chase prey, or guard or herd flock. Most guard and protect dogs (not all of course) have their tails docked for reasons that have nothing to do with aesthetics. In particular when guarding against an intelligent species like man, a long tail is a lovely grab hold to be latched onto.

I think there is a real risk of injury to a long tailed dog. I have seen some studies on this. And for me with owning one long tailed gal, who at this point in her health, would not survive any surgery, I am ultra cautious of her tail and inadvertent injury to same. I am worried enough about this, that I've taken to always having treats in my pocket, so that when I come home, I can immediately treat her into a sit/stay, cause our front hallway is narrow, and her tail beats a staccato on the walls when I arrive home.

Back to Yorkies though, a good working breed like a Yorkie, can and often is multi-faceted. IN fact this summer, Magic and Razzle will both be taking their herding trial test. So while originally bred as ratters this breed can do a whole lot of other things as well. I do suspect that Razzle if I brought him out into field trial training, would be a great bird "flusher", and you bet I'm glad he doesn't have a full tail, if we decide to train in that.
Razzle unfortunately is too small to do water rescue work, although I'm confident he could pull a duck in. I shall have to see how much weight he could pull in this summer.

Great post Gail. You really write well. Do you know if the CKC is going to do any of the Earth Dog trials, it really sounds like Yorkies would excel in this sport.

About Earthdog Tests

For generations small terriers and Dachshunds were bred as hunting dogs to track game above and below ground; to bark at their quarry in the den and to bolt or draw it for the hunter. Now these wonderful little dogs are very suitable as family pets, however, they sometimes have to be trained not to bark at every little noise and not to dig in the yard or garden. Barking and digging are what they were bred for all those years, so now AKC has developed the three levels of Earthdog tests for these game little dogs.

Introduction to Quarry

The initial test is the Introduction to Quarry (IQ) where the dog is introduced to a 10 foot tunnel with one right angle turn and at the end is a cage of rats behind a set of bars. There is a scent trail of rat scent leading into the tunnel and to the rats. At this level the handler can encourage the dog into the tunnel and the judge may help get the dog working at the rats by shaking the cage or making a noise to incite the dog's instincts.

Junior Earthdog

The first level where a title is earned is the Junior Earthdog test where the dog may earn a Junior Earthdog title (J.E.). The dog must travel a 30 foot den with at least three right angle turns in 30 seconds; work the rats at the end of the tunnel (in a cage behind bars as in IQ)for 60 seconds; and then allow the handler to remove him without injury to the dog or handler. Once the dog completes these requirements twice under two different judges he will receive the title of J.E. and receive a Junior Earthdog certificate from the AKC.

Senior Earthdog

The second level of Earthdog test is the Senior Earthdog test where the dog may earn a Senior Earthdog title (S.E.). The den is 30 feet with at least three right angle turns and there are the added distractions of a false, unscented exit and an unscented bedding area with used rat bedding at the end. The dog has 90 seconds to travel the tunnel length and get to the rats; must begin working the rats within 15 seconds of arriving at the end of the tunnel; and must work the rats for 90 seconds. At the end of the 90 seconds the rats are removed and the dog must recall from the den to the handler within 90 seconds. Once the dog completes these requirements under two different judges at three different tests, the dog will be designated a Senior Earthdog (S.E.).

Master Earthdog

The final level of the Earthdog test is the Master Earthdog (M.E.) title. The dog must actually hunt his way to the den with a bracemate 100 to 300 yards. On the way he must investigate an empty, unscented den when the handler asks him to. Then both dogs must find the entrance to the den and mark it decisively so that there is no question the dog is indicating an active den. The den itself is like the Senior den with the addition of two obstacles: a 6 inch diameter PVC pipe crossways in the den to simulate a root and a narrowing down to 6 inches for a distance of 18 inches. The Master competitor has 90 seconds to get to his quarry; must work the rats for 90 seconds and must allow himself to be removed from the den by his handler within 15 seconds. While one dog is working the other dog is staked out and must wait his turn with minimum amount of noise while his bracemate works the quarry. Once a dog successfully completes all parts of the Master test four times under three different judges the dog shall be designated a Master Earthdog and may continue to compete at all three levels at Earthdog tests.

Few small terriers and Dachshunds are regularly hunted to ground by their owners in natural hunts, but the AKC Earthdog tests allow these game little dogs an outlet for their excess energy and instincts in a way that benefits the dogs and the owners.


American Kennel Club - Earthdog

I would love to see how Joey did in this, especially the barking part!

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Carmeow

I want to get anothher yorkie a couple of years from now. Do yall think if I find a breeder BEFORE the litter is born I could ask her not to dock the one I want's tail? Or is that rude, if shes always docked? I honestly wish Luma had her tail and dont want another tail lost if I have a say in it.

Well tail docking is usually done at day 3 up to day 5; so if the breeder is a show breeder, she would likely if she is concerned with showing in the USA and Canada and not internationally would logistically want to keep as many puppies with docked tails as possible. This does mean though, if this is that important to you, that the breeder would pick out the puppy that she would keep undocked for you. No breeder at day 3 can assess if she has a potential show quality dog.

I say to you, keep abreast of the tail docking issue, by visiting both the AKC websites and the YTCA website. Keep current on what is being discussed and particularly any changes in standards.

[brezofleur]

I just love Zeus' undocked tail. It's so expressive and he always gets compliments on it. Of course, it does require MUCH more love with the comb and brush than the rest of his hair... ha ha.

I prefer the undocked look myself. I have only had small dogs (5 over the years - Bichon, Chihuahua, Maltipoo, and Yorkie) and they all had long tails. The only injury closely related to their tails were knots. I am leaning with Brit on that it is a bit exaggerated - tails are just like legs and heads and the dogs (at least mine) know their limits and boundaries. It's very similar to cats when they're not using them for balance.

Of course, I have never had large dogs so I can't speak from experience with them.

Anyway, I personally prefer the longer tails. All of Zeus' Yorkie friends have docked tails and it is cute when they get excited. Zeus just wags his tail but all of his friends shake their lower body. And once their butts get going - adorable!