Roached back? - YorkieTalk.com Forums

LeaveittoBiewer · 10-23-2006, 07:48 PM

Hi everyone,

I bought Max from a breeder with the intentions of possibly breeding him. He appears to have a "roached back" and it's more noticeable when he's eating and sometimes simply standing in place. From reading previous posts on this characteristic, I am learning that this is a hereditary trait and can pass from one generation to the next or several generations. Before actually purchasing Max, I visited him and the breeder, saw both parents and played with him for a bit. It was noticeable then and when I asked the breeder about it she said that was just how some puppies are and that he was going through a growth spurt. And that he would grow out of it. I shrugged it off because surely the breeder was so knowledgeable and she didn't seem fazed by his seemingly curved spine either. It almost looks like he's on his tippy toes. His legs appear "tall" for he doesn't have the cobby short-legged look. He reminds me of a cat that gets up and stretches after laying down. I wish I had a picture to post but I need to downsize it before YT will download it. I'll try and work on getting a pic posted.

I understand that if indeed he does have a roached back that it will not affect his overall health or quality of life but I'm questioning if I should even breed him now. I've had him for five weeks and it hasn't gotten better. He's only 16 weeks old so perhaps he WILL grow out of this condition? I guess my questions are these:

Is 16 weeks too soon to determine a true roachback?

When or if I DO determine that I should not breed him, should I contact the breeder and ask for some sort of monetary compensation for not being able to breed him? I paid a higher price for him because she knew I wanted to breed.

Are breeders supposed to make a buyer aware of ALL defects, medical and cosmetic?

I take some responsibility in not knowing what to look for but I guess I trusted her to educate me or at least tell me that Max was not for me. Being a novice, I thought I was getting a top quality pup and was very excited at becoming a breeder and perhaps I focused too much on pedigrees and the "german biewer hype". (Max's dad is a champion and there are other champion bloodlines for both dam and sire). I just want to begin my breeding debut on the right foot.

Ok folks...don't yell at me TOO much. Just looking for some guidance. Thanks for reading.

Bnot · 10-23-2006, 08:10 PM

I know as a "buyer" I would certainly hope a breeder would tell me all the "cosmetic and medical defects" my future puppy would have.

I do not know enough about roach back to answer your questions at all. But seems to me IF it can be passed on....I would certainly not breed that pup. It would be time to neuter, and keep him as a pet. I would definitely not breed any dog who has a defect that could be passed on to the puppies, peroid.

Not trying to sound harsh here, thats just my opinion, only.

I hope you get the answers to the rest of your questions about roach back.

MyTrixie143 · 10-23-2006, 08:12 PM

I think that if he has a roached back now he will probably still have it when he gets older. Perhaps if you posted a picture of him, we could see if he has a roach back. You really shoulden't buy a male or female for breeding until they are atleast 6 months old, this will give you a good idea of how they are turning out. If you get them before then, you are taking a chance on them being able to be bred.

Yes the breeder should always make the buyer aware of any and all health problems and/or defects. But there are alot of breeders out there that will either lie or not tell you.

My Scampers can look like he has a roach back at times. Usually only when I try to get him to stand for me. He hates it and will hunch his back because he really wants to lay down. But when he is alert or in natural posture, his topline is very good. I don't know what he has against standing for me but he hates it and tries to either sit or lay down everytime I try. I am still working on getting him to stand for me, but it is not an easy process, he is sooo stubborn and has a If I don't want to do it, I am not going to attitude.

angelbaby's mom · 10-24-2006, 04:27 AM

I'm pretty sure if he has the roached back, then it does not go away.

txshopper73 · 10-24-2006, 04:43 AM

He will be roached his entire life. Also with a roached back is a down tail. I would not breed this trait. As far as monetary reimbursement, what does your contract state? Most contracts do not cover cosmetic reasons. Would she be willing to take him back?

Roached backs do not interfere with quality of life, etc. It's just not very pretty to look at. With that said, you should breed strictly to the standard. If you choose to use him anyway, you'll be passing that trait on to the pups. Please reconsider.

LeaveittoBiewer · 10-24-2006, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bnot

I know as a "buyer" I would certainly hope a breeder would tell me all the "cosmetic and medical defects" my future puppy would have.

I do not know enough about roach back to answer your questions at all. But seems to me IF it can be passed on....I would certainly not breed that pup. It would be time to neuter, and keep him as a pet. I would definitely not breed any dog who has a defect that could be passed on to the puppies, peroid.

Not trying to sound harsh here, thats just my opinion, only.

Bnot, you don't sound harsh at all. I feel the same way in that the breeder should have told me of this genetic problem. Especially when I specifically asked about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyTrixie143

You really shoulden't buy a male or female for breeding until they are atleast 6 months old, this will give you a good idea of how they are turning out. If you get them before then, you are taking a chance on them being able to be bred.Yes the breeder should always make the buyer aware of any and all health problems and/or defects. But there are alot of breeders out there that will either lie or not tell you.

The problem with waiting that long is that the puppies are usually spoken for, sometimes even before they're born. I have no problem with being put on a waiting list but even then, it could take many months I'm told. Guess I just have to be patient huh?

I want to give her the benefit of the doubt that maybe she didn't know about this problem but she says she's been breeding for over ten years. I will know soon enough when I contact her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Txshopper73

He will be roached his entire life. Also with a roached back is a down tail. I would not breed this trait. As far as monetary reimbursement, what does your contract state? Most contracts do not cover cosmetic reasons. Would she be willing to take him back? It's just not very pretty to look at. With that said, you should breed strictly to the standard. If you choose to use him anyway, you'll be passing that trait on to the pups. Please reconsider.

Yes, the upper part of his tail is down most of the time but curves up at the end when he's wagging it. The contract does not accommodate for cosmetic reasons but if I can't breed him then hopefully at least we can agree to have me pay for him as a pet quality dog. I know it's kind of hard giving money BACK after the fact so this may be a slight loss for me but you live and you learn right? I wish I could have a breeder in the area to see him personally before I make a decision to neuter him

I do not want to breed him with this defect. Like I said before, I want to do it right coming out the gate.

Thanks everyone.

red rock blues · 10-24-2006, 08:16 AM

I just want to commend you on starting out right. Years ago when I started breeding, the same thing happened to me. I paid alot of money for a breedable female that had a roach. she was beautiful in other respects, but I didn't know any better at the time. I found after trying several different studs with a good topline, that a roach is almost impossible to get rid of. It seems to be a very dominant gene. Not to mention (at least IMHO) one of the worst. I gave it up, and am now set on a new course. This forum is a great place to learn and try to keep on track. I would suggest if your breeder won't replace him, that you neuter him and sell him. Never be afraid to start over. Good luck, and try to post pics for us, ok?

YorkieRose · 10-25-2006, 04:12 PM

When you talked with the breeder about buying a pup, did they know he was for breeding? What guarantee did they give you as to his potential? Roach backs rarely improve..rarely does a good top line go bad..it is either there or isn't.
I HAVE seen pups who were slightly down at the shoulders improve to a correct top line.
A breeder should go over the puppy point by point with you if it is being bought for breeding..and if it is being bought for a pet, It is a nice gesture...all health and genetic pro's and con's need to be pointed out.
Good Luck

s1utster · 10-25-2006, 09:16 PM

can you show us some pics?

LeaveittoBiewer · 10-26-2006, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

When you talked with the breeder about buying a pup, did they know he was for breeding? What guarantee did they give you as to his potential? A breeder should go over the puppy point by point with you if it is being bought for breeding..and if it is being bought for a pet, It is a nice gesture...all health and genetic pro's and con's need to be pointed out.
Good Luck

Oh yes! She certainly knew, that's why she charged me a higher price for him. On the day that I was due to pick him up, she became busy with some personal things so she left her 'helper' at the home to collect my money and deliver the puppy. Of course I had tons of questions but what could I do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by s1utster

can you show us some pics?

It would make sense to have pics when I'm asking about a physical defect question huh?

Unfortunately, my hubby is usually 2-3 days behind when it comes to special requests. He's the resizing pictures expert lol. SO I think I should have pictures any day now

Sorry it's taking so long.

feminvstr · 10-27-2006, 07:40 AM

http://support.vodahost.com/index.ph...wnloaditemid=2

here is a great pic resizer - may this will help - its a free download and easy to use...

hope this helps clear your honey do list

tpaxton23 · 10-27-2006, 11:21 AM

Does anyone have a picture of a roach back dog? One of my yorkies tail is down a lot of the times. I don't know if he is just being submissive or if he is a roach back. He does have it up sometimes. Can you tell from these pictures if he is a roach back?

LittleBits Mom · 10-27-2006, 11:55 AM

You are a very respectable person to put it out on the line like you have. A lot of breeders would just try it anyway, because they have a lot of money in a dog. I breed too, and to a lot of people, it would be too tempting to not use him for breeding but you are doing the right thing. I dont believe it will go away. My LittleBit is the same way. It looks like her back legs (which I call legs) are longer/taller than her front legs(which I call arms) . My husband laughs at me becuase I use that termanolgy, comparing them to humans with fingers and toes and fingernails and toenails. Anyway, my girl gets along great, but even if she was big enough (she is only 2.5lbs full grown) I wouldnt breed her because of the roachback.
Good luck on getting any money back, my guess is the breeder knew and didnt want to lose a sale. As bad as that may seem, a lot of times its true. Hopefully I am wrong and she will give you the difference between what she charges for pet quality to breeding quality. Keep us informed.
Jill

YorkieRose · 10-27-2006, 12:01 PM

He is not roach backed...his tail set is low..very different..a roached back looks like a cat when they hunch over...and there is no such thing as .."sometimes it is level and sometimes it is roached...a well structured, level top line does not change..a roach backed dog can straighten itself out at times or be straigthen to look okay on the table, but the minute they walk for the judge the true structure is seen...it is a structure fautl, not just an nonlevel spine.

LittleBits Mom · 10-27-2006, 12:07 PM

If you arent sure--ask your vet. They will know for sure and then you will have peace of mind in whatever you do.

10-23-2006, 07:48 PM	#1
LeaveittoBiewer Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 85	Roached back? Hi everyone, I bought Max from a breeder with the intentions of possibly breeding him. He appears to have a "roached back" and it's more noticeable when he's eating and sometimes simply standing in place. From reading previous posts on this characteristic, I am learning that this is a hereditary trait and can pass from one generation to the next or several generations. Before actually purchasing Max, I visited him and the breeder, saw both parents and played with him for a bit. It was noticeable then and when I asked the breeder about it she said that was just how some puppies are and that he was going through a growth spurt. And that he would grow out of it. I shrugged it off because surely the breeder was so knowledgeable and she didn't seem fazed by his seemingly curved spine either. It almost looks like he's on his tippy toes. His legs appear "tall" for he doesn't have the cobby short-legged look. He reminds me of a cat that gets up and stretches after laying down. I wish I had a picture to post but I need to downsize it before YT will download it. I'll try and work on getting a pic posted. I understand that if indeed he does have a roached back that it will not affect his overall health or quality of life but I'm questioning if I should even breed him now. I've had him for five weeks and it hasn't gotten better. He's only 16 weeks old so perhaps he WILL grow out of this condition? I guess my questions are these: Is 16 weeks too soon to determine a true roachback? When or if I DO determine that I should not breed him, should I contact the breeder and ask for some sort of monetary compensation for not being able to breed him? I paid a higher price for him because she knew I wanted to breed. Are breeders supposed to make a buyer aware of ALL defects, medical and cosmetic? I take some responsibility in not knowing what to look for but I guess I trusted her to educate me or at least tell me that Max was not for me. Being a novice, I thought I was getting a top quality pup and was very excited at becoming a breeder and perhaps I focused too much on pedigrees and the "german biewer hype". (Max's dad is a champion and there are other champion bloodlines for both dam and sire). I just want to begin my breeding debut on the right foot. Ok folks...don't yell at me TOO much. Just looking for some guidance. Thanks for reading.

10-23-2006, 08:12 PM	#3
MyTrixie143 Mom to 6 Beautiful Furkids Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 5,409	I think that if he has a roached back now he will probably still have it when he gets older. Perhaps if you posted a picture of him, we could see if he has a roach back. You really shoulden't buy a male or female for breeding until they are atleast 6 months old, this will give you a good idea of how they are turning out. If you get them before then, you are taking a chance on them being able to be bred. Yes the breeder should always make the buyer aware of any and all health problems and/or defects. But there are alot of breeders out there that will either lie or not tell you. My Scampers can look like he has a roach back at times. Usually only when I try to get him to stand for me. He hates it and will hunch his back because he really wants to lay down. But when he is alert or in natural posture, his topline is very good. I don't know what he has against standing for me but he hates it and tries to either sit or lay down everytime I try. I am still working on getting him to stand for me, but it is not an easy process, he is sooo stubborn and has a If I don't want to do it, I am not going to attitude. __________________ A dog is a furry person! http://www.dogster.com/?300866 Tracey and the gang DestinyHarmonyScamperGracieLillieKiwi Hershey Peppi

10-24-2006, 04:43 AM	#5
txshopper73 Donating YT 14K Club Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 14,226 Blog Entries: 1	He will be roached his entire life. Also with a roached back is a down tail. I would not breed this trait. As far as monetary reimbursement, what does your contract state? Most contracts do not cover cosmetic reasons. Would she be willing to take him back? Roached backs do not interfere with quality of life, etc. It's just not very pretty to look at. With that said, you should breed strictly to the standard. If you choose to use him anyway, you'll be passing that trait on to the pups. Please reconsider. __________________ As always...JMO (Just My Opinion) Kimberley

10-25-2006, 04:12 PM	#8
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	pup When you talked with the breeder about buying a pup, did they know he was for breeding? What guarantee did they give you as to his potential? Roach backs rarely improve..rarely does a good top line go bad..it is either there or isn't. I HAVE seen pups who were slightly down at the shoulders improve to a correct top line. A breeder should go over the puppy point by point with you if it is being bought for breeding..and if it is being bought for a pet, It is a nice gesture...all health and genetic pro's and con's need to be pointed out. Good Luck

10-27-2006, 07:40 AM	#11
feminvstr Donating YT 4000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 4,405	http://support.vodahost.com/index.ph...wnloaditemid=2 here is a great pic resizer - may this will help - its a free download and easy to use... hope this helps clear your honey do list __________________ Kimberly

10-23-2006, 08:10 PM	#2
Bnot YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Mobile AL Posts: 1,399	I know as a "buyer" I would certainly hope a breeder would tell me all the "cosmetic and medical defects" my future puppy would have. I do not know enough about roach back to answer your questions at all. But seems to me IF it can be passed on....I would certainly not breed that pup. It would be time to neuter, and keep him as a pet. I would definitely not breed any dog who has a defect that could be passed on to the puppies, peroid. Not trying to sound harsh here, thats just my opinion, only. I hope you get the answers to the rest of your questions about roach back.

10-24-2006, 04:27 AM	#4
angelbaby's mom YT Addict Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: OK, but Texas soon! Posts: 326	I'm pretty sure if he has the roached back, then it does not go away.

10-24-2006, 08:16 AM	#7
red rock blues No Longer a Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Mesquite, Nv Posts: 136	I just want to commend you on starting out right. Years ago when I started breeding, the same thing happened to me. I paid alot of money for a breedable female that had a roach. she was beautiful in other respects, but I didn't know any better at the time. I found after trying several different studs with a good topline, that a roach is almost impossible to get rid of. It seems to be a very dominant gene. Not to mention (at least IMHO) one of the worst. I gave it up, and am now set on a new course. This forum is a great place to learn and try to keep on track. I would suggest if your breeder won't replace him, that you neuter him and sell him. Never be afraid to start over. Good luck, and try to post pics for us, ok?

10-25-2006, 09:16 PM	#9
s1utster Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NEW YORK Posts: 96	can you show us some pics?

10-27-2006, 11:55 AM	#13
LittleBits Mom Donating YT Addict Join Date: May 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 671	Very respectable!! You are a very respectable person to put it out on the line like you have. A lot of breeders would just try it anyway, because they have a lot of money in a dog. I breed too, and to a lot of people, it would be too tempting to not use him for breeding but you are doing the right thing. I dont believe it will go away. My LittleBit is the same way. It looks like her back legs (which I call legs) are longer/taller than her front legs(which I call arms) . My husband laughs at me becuase I use that termanolgy, comparing them to humans with fingers and toes and fingernails and toenails. Anyway, my girl gets along great, but even if she was big enough (she is only 2.5lbs full grown) I wouldnt breed her because of the roachback. Good luck on getting any money back, my guess is the breeder knew and didnt want to lose a sale. As bad as that may seem, a lot of times its true. Hopefully I am wrong and she will give you the difference between what she charges for pet quality to breeding quality. Keep us informed. Jill __________________ Have a great day!! Jill (LittleBits Mom)

10-27-2006, 12:01 PM	#14
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	tail set He is not roach backed...his tail set is low..very different..a roached back looks like a cat when they hunch over...and there is no such thing as .."sometimes it is level and sometimes it is roached...a well structured, level top line does not change..a roach backed dog can straighten itself out at times or be straigthen to look okay on the table, but the minute they walk for the judge the true structure is seen...it is a structure fautl, not just an nonlevel spine.

10-27-2006, 12:07 PM	#15
LittleBits Mom Donating YT Addict Join Date: May 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 671	ask your vet If you arent sure--ask your vet. They will know for sure and then you will have peace of mind in whatever you do. __________________ Have a great day!! Jill (LittleBits Mom)