Roached back? - Page 3 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

YorkieRose · 10-30-2006, 04:54 AM

I do not see a roach back either...BUT the size is a stumbling block in my eyes. What size bitches do you have or plan to buy?

When it comes to structure faults...and a roach back is a structure fault, not health problem..it is best to have a judge or breeder look at your dog..unless a vet knows the standard for each breed they aren't that useful in this type situation. Some breeds are suppose to be roached..some are supposed to have underbites, coarse coats, low rears etc, etc...a vet who happens to breed Yorkies is a plus..known a couple of them.

LeaveittoBiewer · 10-30-2006, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

What size bitches do you have or plan to buy?

I know that she has to be about 5 lbs adult weight so I planned on purchasing one at that weight range (hopefully). I saw both parents, they were not large.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleBits Mom

I still say to ask your vet.

Hmm....I thought that perhaps a yorkie breeder would be of more of the expert when it came to physical faults. I take him to the vet next week for his final vaccinations so I'll ask him about it then. Doesn't hurt ask, I suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

How much did this cutie weigh at 12 weeks.

He weighed 3lbs 9ozs at his 12 week vet visit and he weighed 5lbs 2ozs as of last week. He's a little piggy

Again, thank you so much to everyone's input and advice.

YorkieRose · 10-30-2006, 08:12 AM

I think he will run 8 to 9 pounds..doubling the 12 week weight is a good guide..then take structure and frame into consideration. His top line is not a problem as I see it now...but his size is a stopper for me...I only give an opinion when asked and you asked..LOL You see the problem with an oversize stud is, he can produce pups even larger then himself..I am not familiar with the Biewer standard, but I assume weight limits are the same...you will constantly be in a battle to find girls in the oversized range...you would think if you breed 7 to 9 pounds together, you only get 7 to 9 pounders....not so..they will increase in the next generation and start running in the 10 to 12 pound range...very common in the standard colors..BUT you need to talk with Biewer breeders to get a true answer.
I know several breeders with small Biewer studs near you...look for a 5 to 6 pound bitch and buy stud service as a start...just an idea what works well for many starting out.

LeaveittoBiewer · 10-30-2006, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I think he will run 8 to 9 pounds..doubling the 12 week weight is a good guide..then take structure and frame into consideration. His top line is not a problem as I see it now...but his size is a stopper for me...I only give an opinion when asked and you asked..LOL

You have been nothing but helpful and I thank you.

I think I will take your advice and a previous post's advice (Red Rock Blues) and consider not breeding him and starting over. As a mater of fact, I WAS trying to get a female first and use a stud but they were either already sold before or after birth or sold on spay contracts only. They're kind of tough to come by unless you know someone who knows someone who knows someone.

Oh well...I've sent the breeder an email explaining my intentions to sell him and per her contract, she has first right to refusal. I'll take it from there.

scrapindee · 10-30-2006, 10:07 PM

I hope the breeder will take him back and let you start over. If you want to breed, it is best if the stud is on the smallish size. The idea is to breed show quality standard puppy and quality breeding stock; not to just "make" puppies to sell.

I'll be happy to discuss any of this off the forum on email (scrapindee@aol.com) or by phone.

LeaveittoBiewer · 10-31-2006, 08:42 AM

Well, the breeder has gotten back to me and she is not willing to take him back nor is she willing to transfer the health guarantee to the new owner. Soooooo it looks like I'm on my own.

Again, thanks to everyone who has pointed me in the right direction. See you in the For Sale section!

YorkieRose · 10-31-2006, 01:13 PM

In my opinion, this is an example of an unethcial breeder...if someone buys my puppy the a guarantee goes with the pup, NOT the buyer...but we all have to decide what we think is fair and unfair..of course, I would want to talk to the new owner and establish a speaking relationship in case there was a health problem within the one year.

LeaveittoBiewer · 10-31-2006, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

In my opinion, this is an example of an unethcial breeder...if someone buys my puppy the a guarantee goes with the pup, NOT the buyer...but we all have to decide what we think is fair and unfair..of course, I would want to talk to the new owner and establish a speaking relationship in case there was a health problem within the one year.

I feel the same but there's nothing I can do about it, I suppose. I signed on the dotted line. I intend on keeping in touch with the new owners.

JHurtt · 12-29-2006, 10:02 PM

It sounds like you are making the right decision, but I'm sorry that you are going through all of this. I don't agree with what the breeder has done at all. If the breeder charged you an extra fee to have breeding rights and Max will not be of breeding quality, the breeder should at least refund that portion of your money to you. In addition, I don't like that the health guarantee does not transfer with him because that to me sounds like the guarantee was only there for reputation purposes only. What I mean by that is that the breeder doesn't sound very concerned about the pup's wellbeing and that the guarantee was offered because it was "the thing to do".

Good luck in finding Max a home. I know of a few people who have had to let their males go because they didn't turn out to be of breeding quality and you might want to consider having him neutered before selling him. Only suggesting this because some people won't care if he is or isn't breeding quality and will want to take advantage of the pet price. Good luck!

Sonashe · 12-30-2006, 06:01 AM

I'm sorry so to hear about your dilemma. I have been reading lately about the German Biewer imports...they are not breeding quality . I'm by no means an expert, but my understanding is for a male to be breed in Germany he needs to be shown...not the female. I believe they are using poor quality females with faults. Also with the demand from all of us to buy from them is causing them to produce more. The males are too big and females too small for breeding...even reputable breeders in Germany are selling them .

My advised to all of those who are looking for breeding stock do your homework. There are many breeders in the US that perhaps will sell for breeding and there will not be the need to go oversee. Also their prices have gone way up just to bring you a puppy to your door. When you could just drive up the road in your area . Their prices are up to $5,000 also in Hungry they go for 2,000. Now they started to import from Hungry .

For those of you who just will like a pet...buy from breeders in the US these dogs have champions background and your pup will be register in Germany since is not recognized here in the US .

It's so sad to see so many Biewers on PuppyFind that are being re-home for not being breeding stock ... If you are looking for a pet and you want a male please look at this site there are a couple listed at a great price.
Liza

Snow Yorkies · 12-30-2006, 08:11 AM

Nita... there is some sound advice given here. My first red flag would be that the breeder didn't have enough time or could schedule the time to meet with you in person when picking up your pup. I as a breeder would want to be present to go over EVERYTHING on my puppy. Feeding schedule, behavior, blood work, vaccination, ect... Not an assistant, sorry just my opinion.

Just because a dog is a Champion doesn't mean he will produce a Champion, so please DO NOT let you throw you off in the future when looking for a pup. Also get yourself aquinted with the titles to know this process as well. It is very important!!! Many are showing their pups in the puppy classes getting a couple of puppy Championships and calling them a Champion...geesh!!!

Liza in Germany they do show both male and females, they are to do this to determine whether they are of breeding quality.. Again, get you titles straight they are baby champions... also I seen a email from a German judge that states... some Biewers are winning even with faults...

So these titles just don't impress me as much, sorry!

This boy looks large to me.. beautiful by all rights. I would say that this boy is extremely leggie. I have to agree with Pat 100% on her opinion.

It seems what I have been seeing for this breed so far is that they are either to small or on the larger side. A few have made the standard so far. I have been lucky to have a couple of these. Also... be very careful with the theory if the males are small they will throw small... this is NOT a 100%. Genetics plays the biggest part of what you will be producing... This breed is entirely too young to say there is decades of lineage to compare. I have been studying as much as I can find on the yorkies used to produce the Biewers and it is hard to find much information, but I keep plugging away...LOL!!

I will stop now as my fingers are just getting geared up....LOL!!! My advice is to contact breeders of this breed that have had a couple of litters already here in the US to give you an idea of what they have experienced so far...

Snow Yorkies · 12-30-2006, 08:28 AM

Here is a link of some shows that were held in Germany. Hope this is helpful in seeing what is brought to the showring...

http://www.ach-l.de/Fotos%20Ausstell...28.05.2006.htm

Sonashe · 12-30-2006, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Yorkies

Nita... there is some sound advice given here. My first red flag would be that the breeder didn't have enough time or could schedule the time to meet with you in person when picking up your pup. I as a breeder would want to be present to go over EVERYTHING on my puppy. Feeding schedule, behavior, blood work, vaccination, ect... Not an assistant, sorry just my opinion.

Just because a dog is a Champion doesn't mean he will produce a Champion, so please DO NOT let you throw you off in the future when looking for a pup. Also get yourself aquinted with the titles to know this process as well. It is very important!!! Many are showing their pups in the puppy classes getting a couple of puppy Championships and calling them a Champion...geesh!!!

Liza in Germany they do show both male and females, they are to do this to determine whether they are of breeding quality.. Again, get you titles straight they are baby champions... also I seen a email from a German judge that states... some Biewers are winning even with faults...

So these titles just don't impress me as much, sorry!

This boy looks large to me.. beautiful by all rights. I would say that this boy is extremely leggie. I have to agree with Pat 100% on her opinion.

It seems what I have been seeing for this breed so far is that they are either to small or on the larger side. A few have made the standard so far. I have been lucky to have a couple of these. Also... be very careful with the theory if the males are small they will throw small... this is NOT a 100%. Genetics plays the biggest part of what you will be producing... This breed is entirely too young to say there is decades of lineage to compare. I have been studying as much as I can find on the yorkies used to produce the Biewers and it is hard to find much information, but I keep plugging away...LOL!!

I will stop now as my fingers are just getting geared up....LOL!!! My advice is to contact breeders of this breed that have had a couple of litters already here in the US to give you an idea of what they have experienced so far...

Sue thanks for the information... love to learn as much as possible.

Sonashe · 12-30-2006, 01:41 PM

Lots of good advise for all !!!

10-30-2006, 04:54 AM	#31
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	back I do not see a roach back either...BUT the size is a stumbling block in my eyes. What size bitches do you have or plan to buy? When it comes to structure faults...and a roach back is a structure fault, not health problem..it is best to have a judge or breeder look at your dog..unless a vet knows the standard for each breed they aren't that useful in this type situation. Some breeds are suppose to be roached..some are supposed to have underbites, coarse coats, low rears etc, etc...a vet who happens to breed Yorkies is a plus..known a couple of them.

10-30-2006, 08:12 AM	#33
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	size I think he will run 8 to 9 pounds..doubling the 12 week weight is a good guide..then take structure and frame into consideration. His top line is not a problem as I see it now...but his size is a stopper for me...I only give an opinion when asked and you asked..LOL You see the problem with an oversize stud is, he can produce pups even larger then himself..I am not familiar with the Biewer standard, but I assume weight limits are the same...you will constantly be in a battle to find girls in the oversized range...you would think if you breed 7 to 9 pounds together, you only get 7 to 9 pounders....not so..they will increase in the next generation and start running in the 10 to 12 pound range...very common in the standard colors..BUT you need to talk with Biewer breeders to get a true answer. I know several breeders with small Biewer studs near you...look for a 5 to 6 pound bitch and buy stud service as a start...just an idea what works well for many starting out.

10-30-2006, 10:07 PM	#35
scrapindee Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Redlands Posts: 4,842 Blog Entries: 2	I hope the breeder will take him back and let you start over. If you want to breed, it is best if the stud is on the smallish size. The idea is to breed show quality standard puppy and quality breeding stock; not to just "make" puppies to sell. I'll be happy to discuss any of this off the forum on email (scrapindee@aol.com) or by phone. __________________ Scrapindee--Team Furry & the Biewers www.houseofwags.com

10-31-2006, 01:13 PM	#37
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	breeder In my opinion, this is an example of an unethcial breeder...if someone buys my puppy the a guarantee goes with the pup, NOT the buyer...but we all have to decide what we think is fair and unfair..of course, I would want to talk to the new owner and establish a speaking relationship in case there was a health problem within the one year.

12-29-2006, 10:02 PM	#39
JHurtt Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 319	It sounds like you are making the right decision, but I'm sorry that you are going through all of this. I don't agree with what the breeder has done at all. If the breeder charged you an extra fee to have breeding rights and Max will not be of breeding quality, the breeder should at least refund that portion of your money to you. In addition, I don't like that the health guarantee does not transfer with him because that to me sounds like the guarantee was only there for reputation purposes only. What I mean by that is that the breeder doesn't sound very concerned about the pup's wellbeing and that the guarantee was offered because it was "the thing to do". Good luck in finding Max a home. I know of a few people who have had to let their males go because they didn't turn out to be of breeding quality and you might want to consider having him neutered before selling him. Only suggesting this because some people won't care if he is or isn't breeding quality and will want to take advantage of the pet price. Good luck! __________________ Jen and the Bloomin' Biewers Gang

10-31-2006, 08:42 AM	#36
LeaveittoBiewer Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 85	Well, the breeder has gotten back to me and she is not willing to take him back nor is she willing to transfer the health guarantee to the new owner. Soooooo it looks like I'm on my own. Again, thanks to everyone who has pointed me in the right direction. See you in the For Sale section!

12-30-2006, 06:01 AM	#40
Sonashe Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 109	I'm sorry so to hear about your dilemma. I have been reading lately about the German Biewer imports...they are not breeding quality . I'm by no means an expert, but my understanding is for a male to be breed in Germany he needs to be shown...not the female. I believe they are using poor quality females with faults. Also with the demand from all of us to buy from them is causing them to produce more. The males are too big and females too small for breeding...even reputable breeders in Germany are selling them . My advised to all of those who are looking for breeding stock do your homework. There are many breeders in the US that perhaps will sell for breeding and there will not be the need to go oversee. Also their prices have gone way up just to bring you a puppy to your door. When you could just drive up the road in your area . Their prices are up to $5,000 also in Hungry they go for 2,000. Now they started to import from Hungry . For those of you who just will like a pet...buy from breeders in the US these dogs have champions background and your pup will be register in Germany since is not recognized here in the US . It's so sad to see so many Biewers on PuppyFind that are being re-home for not being breeding stock ... If you are looking for a pet and you want a male please look at this site there are a couple listed at a great price. Liza __________________ Nana to Pierce & Mia Mommy to Shiloh Jolie & Harmony (Biewer Yorkshire Terrier) Sophia Chanel (Ragdoll)

12-30-2006, 08:11 AM	#41
Snow Yorkies Biewer Passionate Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Southern AL Posts: 1,684	Nita... there is some sound advice given here. My first red flag would be that the breeder didn't have enough time or could schedule the time to meet with you in person when picking up your pup. I as a breeder would want to be present to go over EVERYTHING on my puppy. Feeding schedule, behavior, blood work, vaccination, ect... Not an assistant, sorry just my opinion. Just because a dog is a Champion doesn't mean he will produce a Champion, so please DO NOT let you throw you off in the future when looking for a pup. Also get yourself aquinted with the titles to know this process as well. It is very important!!! Many are showing their pups in the puppy classes getting a couple of puppy Championships and calling them a Champion...geesh!!! Liza in Germany they do show both male and females, they are to do this to determine whether they are of breeding quality.. Again, get you titles straight they are baby champions... also I seen a email from a German judge that states... some Biewers are winning even with faults... So these titles just don't impress me as much, sorry! This boy looks large to me.. beautiful by all rights. I would say that this boy is extremely leggie. I have to agree with Pat 100% on her opinion. It seems what I have been seeing for this breed so far is that they are either to small or on the larger side. A few have made the standard so far. I have been lucky to have a couple of these. Also... be very careful with the theory if the males are small they will throw small... this is NOT a 100%. Genetics plays the biggest part of what you will be producing... This breed is entirely too young to say there is decades of lineage to compare. I have been studying as much as I can find on the yorkies used to produce the Biewers and it is hard to find much information, but I keep plugging away...LOL!! I will stop now as my fingers are just getting geared up....LOL!!! My advice is to contact breeders of this breed that have had a couple of litters already here in the US to give you an idea of what they have experienced so far... __________________ Dare to Dream Biewers Charter Member of BAPPC

12-30-2006, 08:28 AM	#42
Snow Yorkies Biewer Passionate Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Southern AL Posts: 1,684	Here is a link of some shows that were held in Germany. Hope this is helpful in seeing what is brought to the showring... http://www.ach-l.de/Fotos%20Ausstell...28.05.2006.htm __________________ Dare to Dream Biewers Charter Member of BAPPC

12-30-2006, 01:41 PM	#44
Sonashe Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 109	Lots of good advise for all !!! __________________ Nana to Pierce & Mia Mommy to Shiloh Jolie & Harmony (Biewer Yorkshire Terrier) Sophia Chanel (Ragdoll) Last edited by Sonashe; 12-30-2006 at 01:46 PM.