Can you negotiate terms with owner of a stud?

[pauldo]

My female went into heat a few days ago and there are only three male studs in my area. I contacted the owner of my favourite stud (Duffy) However this yorkie stud has no history of live puppies. One female that became pregnant lost the puppies (probably not the fault of Duffy). The other two females (both in heat the same week) did not get pregnant. I spoke with a fertility vet at the Vet College in our city and he advised me against using Duffy -- he suspected a low sperm count and said that one or both of the females should have gotten pregnant. Anyways I let my heart lead, and contacted Duffy's owners. I told them I wanted to use Duffy but b/c he wasn't proven were they willing to be flexible on the price (I mentioned the other two studs were proven and their owners charged less). The owner sounded defensive and told me that one of the two females did get pregnant. I told him his wife said the two females did not. There was silence, then he told me "I don't care what you do!" and he hung up on me. I immediately decided these were not the people I wanted to spend time with while my dog was being bred, so I contacted my second pick and made arrangements for breeding. Nonetheless I felt bad for how my discussion went with the other breeder and contacted his wife and apologized. I explained my concerns and why I had been looking for some flexibily if I used Duffy. She was very cold on the phone, stated "yes you did offend my husband" but she did not offer an apololgy for how he had hung up on me. My question is, aren't I paying for not only the "quality" of the stud, but also the studs ability to be a stud? If he did not have a record as a stud dog, did I not have the right to express my concerns and see what we could come up with other than me just handing over $500 for an unproven stud???? I'm new at this and I don't know if I really blew "stud service conventions" or if I just dealt with some "overly-sensitive" breeders.

[JeanieK]

A stud fee should guarantee a litter, which is more than one puppy.

I wouldn't deal with these people. I can only see it leading to problems down the road. They should be grateful that you are giving him a second thought, not treating you like you owe them something.

Any fee can be negotiated, IMHO, half the fee is better than no fee at all.

[chattiesmom]

I am not a breeder, so I can't really give a good answer. However, I would do the same and feel the same as you have posted.

When studding out our stallions we give a "live birth" guarantee. This means that if the mare does not give birth to a live foal that stands and sucks, then we rebreed the mare.

[angelbaby's mom]

The stud fee should include a guarantee of a live birth, or they should either refund the stud fee or they would owe you another breeding. Then, if the 2nd one didn't take or result in a live birth, they should refund at least 80% of the stud fee, keeping 20% for their time/effort put into boarding your female & assisting with the process (which is a common occurrance).

At any rate, you are wise not to use these people. Sounds like they are inexperienced in the whole process.

[Yorkie3]

I don't guarentee a live birth. I charge an amount for stud fee. He is proven by 4 litters. (every females he's been with has had a litter of at least 1 and as many as 6) If they get pregnant great, but if she doesn't they need to figure out why with the help of their Vet. If the female does not get pregnant, I offer two choices half the amount in a refund or a second breeding. If she doesn't get pregnant the 2nd time, no money is refunded. My time and my stud's time is worth something. Plus my stud has to be ready for the female, ya just can't put them together when it's convenient.

[YorkieRose]

Duffy has proved he can sire a litter..you said the death of the pups was not the studs fault, correct? Then two bitches were in at the same time...I would not use the same male with two clients in the same week to insure the best results..

I did stud service for over 20 years. I guaranteed 2 to 3 breedings. If there was no conception, then a return was given. One puppy constitutes a litter IMO...the bitch determines the number of pups, so why blame the stud? His sperm count should be checked from time to time to insure clients a sound stud for the money.
Duffy's owner can remedy this question in a very simple manner..get a sperm count...then there is no guessing.

[Saleswman]

Does the questioning of this "person" give him the right to be disrespectful??????

Based on the response of the "Stud Owner." He really did not have to be rude.....this is a working agreement with both sides.....what benefit did he get from becoming rude and hanging up the phone????

There are way to many options for studs...here even on YT.

I have a real problem with "disrespect," whoever it is from......

I would say......."lesson learned" and find someone else to do business with..MHO.

[JeanieK]

[QUOTE=Yorkie3]I don't guarentee a live birth. I charge an amount for stud fee. He is proven by 4 litters. (every females he's been with has had a litter of at least 1 and as many as 6)

One puppy is not considered a litter.

I guess I would not use a stud if they wouldn't guarantee me a litter. But it also depends on how much you charge. Some charge the cost of a puppy, or pick of the litter, which in my opinion, is the cost of the puppy.

[YorkieRose]

Think about this for a minute..in the dog breeding world you are not buying puppies...you are buying the services of a stud. If a human goes to a sperm bank are they guaranteed a baby..no, they are buying a service..HOPEFULLY, it will result in a baby..it is the same with a dog.

A stud owner has the right to be paid for a service they offer. It is work and a big responsibility. I always kept the bitch for 3 to 5 days...some longer when the owner miscalulated. I groomed her before she went home if she needed it and most need it after breeding. I bred the bitch and believe me I have sat on the floor many hours trying to get someones high strung, difficult bitch bred. I have been bitten and scratched more times then I care to count.

I never left the dogs together to do their thing..I actually bred them..I knew there was a breeding and never took a dollar I did not earn.

You can not blame a proven stud for a failed litter. There ar etoo many factors involved. I always offered a return service if no pups result..I had no problem giving 2 returns and that was a very, very rare..95% conceived the first time out..and almost all conceived the second time.

As to a stud owner charging the price of a puppy..Boy, that better be one fine champion...the average pup is $1000...tip top champion stud service is only $500/750

[pauldo]

Thanks for educating me on different options for a stud contract and letting me know that I wasn't way off base for discussing this with Duffy's owners. Reflecting on this experience, I agree with you JeannieK and Saleswmn, they were rude and weren't too concerned about offending me - just that "I" had had offended "them" -- these people would likely be a problem down the road if I had other concerns. (Darn, they have such a nice yorkie). I also thought they would have been grateful that I was willing to try Duffy based on what his history has been -- they actually own the two females that didn't conceive (which is why they bred them at the same time) and you would think they would appreciate the chance to find out if Duffy is successful b/f their females go into heat again which should be in November.

YorkieRose: The vet fertility expert I mentioned told me that sperm counts in Yorkies tend not to be accurate (usually come out lower). He said I could ask for one but it wldn't necessarily be accurate -- I don't think I would ever suggest this to Duffy's owners (I think they'll hang up on me again). At any rate this vet's view of Duffy's history is that Duffy is not at this point a reliable stud dog, so the sperm bank analogy doesn't quite work with Duffy -- b/c I really don't know if I'm "buying" enough sperm - what I'm paying for are the services of a good looking yorkie not necessarily a stud yorkie (which is what the $500 is suppose to be for).

Anyways I agree with your point that those that own stud dogs should be paid for their time (again this probably varies). Here in Saskatoon all stud owners I have spoken with, keep the female only for the period of time it takes to breed the two, I then pick my female up and return in two days.

At any rate the woman I have made arrangements with to use her stud seems wonderful -- she is very warm, welcoming and full of information. I think she will be great! Her stud, Stanley, is also 3 lbs. My only concerns with him were that he had the same characteristics as my own female that I was hoping to correct (ears a little bit too big, and legs a little bit too long). However, Stanley was shaved which may be why he had the bigger eared, longer legged look.....?????

[Peters]

i wouldn't have anything else to do with the duffy owners and if possible i would inform anyone else who was thinking of using them of how they act about all of it good luck in finding a stud i think that a litter should be guarenteed or refund rebreeding.

[BLowry]

I thought a stud fee was only paid if the female was preganant? Is this not true? You have to pay a fee just for the mating???

[YorkieRose]

I would not expect payment with a stud like Duffy if I owned him, until the bitch was confirmed pregnant..but then again, never offered an "iffy" stud in the first place. The breeder should prove him with their own bitches or close friends bitches and go from there..and rudeness is never acceptable.

I have never heard sperm counts on Yorks is not reliable..you might find it interesting to know I never had a sterile stud in 35 yrs and I am not special..most health, well cared for males are fertile..BUT it would be so much easier for this breeder to simply stop using him at public stud until they prove him privately..be fair to the bitch owner for goodness sakes.


I am totally puzzled why anyone thinks a breeder is unfair to expect a payment for a stud serivce...You are buying a service, not a litter..same with horse breeders etc.

I am 100% positive that anyone who does stud service on a regular weekly basis deserves to be paid...it was a job! I had to keep a mimium of 4 studs health and well cared for to be a reputable stud owner.

Unfortunately, not all people are honest...I had woman offer to let me have pick of the litter. The bitch had 3 males and 2 females..I saw them at 4 days and docked the tails,.but at 8 weeks when I went to see them, I was told the two girls died. I was leery, but believed her..so I took a male...but guess what..they didn't die. People lie about a pregnancy occuring and number/sex of the pups in a litter, on and on..it is very sad..but I want to say I had wonderful stud clients 99% of the time..and quite a few paid more when I had not increased their fee in 3 years...they said the price of everything goes up and stud service was no different..
Best wishes

[YorkieRose]

PS...One reason I agreed to take care of many bitches for two reasons...1. many clients lived as much as 8 to 12 hrs away. 2. many had males of their own and wanted make my stud was the sire..so I kept them until they were out of season...when AKC started DNA, it was most important.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I would not expect payment with a stud like Duffy if I owned him, until the bitch was confirmed pregnant..but then again, never offered an "iffy" stud in the first place. The breeder should prove him with their own bitches or close friends bitches and go from there..and rudeness is never acceptable.

I have never heard sperm counts on Yorks is not reliable..you might find it interesting to know I never had a sterile stud in 35 yrs and I am not special..most health, well cared for males are fertile..BUT it would be so much easier for this breeder to simply stop using him at public stud until they prove him privately..be fair to the bitch owner for goodness sakes.


I am totally puzzled why anyone thinks a breeder is unfair to expect a payment for a stud serivce...You are buying a service, not a litter..same with horse breeders etc.

I am 100% positive that anyone who does stud service on a regular weekly basis deserves to be paid...it was a job! I had to keep a mimium of 4 studs health and well cared for to be a reputable stud owner.

Unfortunately, not all people are honest...I had woman offer to let me have pick of the litter. The bitch had 3 males and 2 females..I saw them at 4 days and docked the tails,.but at 8 weeks when I went to see them, I was told the two girls died. I was leery, but believed her..so I took a male...but guess what..they didn't die. People lie about a pregnancy occuring and number/sex of the pups in a litter, on and on..it is very sad..but I want to say I had wonderful stud clients 99% of the time..and quite a few paid more when I had not increased their fee in 3 years...they said the price of everything goes up and stud service was no different..
Best wishes

You bring up some valid points. Since I have never done any breeding, I have no idea what all is involved. But as a client, if I had the choice of going with someone who guaranteed, and someone who didn't, I believe that I would go with the guarentee.

I realize that a service has been provided whether or not the female has 0 puppies or 9 puppies. But if you took pick of the litter as a fee, and there was NO litter, then you wouldn't get paid either.

So although your points are valid and I understand your reasoning, you would not be my first choice. I probfably would not give pick of the litter either. I would not want to give away my best puppy. I prefer set fees.