Liver shunt questions ?? - Page 3 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

Bizzymammabee · 03-01-2006, 07:28 AM

You know if more breeders acted as responsibly as you did then maybe we would have less problems later on. I really think you are a special person and the support and help you gave to that family went above and beyond and it just shows you are not in it to make money.

BTW how stressful is the testing on the puppy?

YorkieRini · 03-01-2006, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmyorkies

Oh forgot to mention that the breeder that didn't want to believe that her dog threw a shunt puppy has also sold several sick puppies, and have had puppies die that she sold. She is now trying to show her dogs by teaming up with another breeder. She sold puppies that ended up with Parvo, ring worm, and other diseases. She is from Georgia.

That's a terrible thing to do!

Bizzymammabee · 03-01-2006, 07:45 AM

Very sad that these breeders have no conscience. It's amazing how they will find a way to make a buck no matter what. There should really be some more definitive monitoring of these breeders and their kennels.

hockeymom · 03-01-2006, 09:03 AM

When you as a buyer end up with one of these LS or MVD puppies you understand the heartache and the $$$$$ for vet bills you have with these babies. Anyone can get a LS or MVD puppy when they breed..... this is not the issue......the issue is if you do nothing about it. We are all at risk breeders and buyers alike when someone knows and contiues to breed with LS or MVD. When LS or MVD is mentiond many breeders run and refuse to talk about it, and refusue to admit they have it in their lines. This is why there are so many of these babies suffering from LS and MVD.

Snow Yorkies · 03-01-2006, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeymom

When you as a buyer end up with one of these LS or MVD puppies you understand the heartache and the $$$$$ for vet bills you have with these babies. Anyone can get a LS or MVD puppy when they breed..... this is not the issue......the issue is if you do nothing about it. We are all at risk breeders and buyers alike when someone knows and contiues to breed with LS or MVD. When LS or MVD is mentiond many breeders run and refuse to talk about it, and refusue to admit they have it in their lines. This is why there are so many of these babies suffering from LS and MVD.

Snow Yorkies · 03-01-2006, 10:13 AM

Since we are talking now about the Biewer pup that died from LS. It is a well known fact the the factoring parents are still being breed. To one another and the stud is continuing to be used for example he is the sire for the new BIRO yorkie.

The newest spin off of the Biewers! Geesh.. the Biewers don't even have a good foundation yet. Talk about trying to cash in!

mmyorkies · 03-01-2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Yorkies

Since we are talking now about the Biewer pup that died from LS. It is a well known fact the the factoring parents are still being breed. To one another and the stud is continuing to be used for example he is the sire for the new BIRO yorkie.

The newest spin off of the Biewers! Geesh.. the Biewers don't even have a good foundation yet. Talk about trying to cash in!

Yes, and in the future when the Biewer's are their own breed here, people will be asking the same thing about the disease as we are now of the standard yorkies. Someone just said something about it being overkill to spay/neuter healthy pups out of parents that have thrown LS pups, but I do not believe that is over kill. To me that is being responsible as a breeder. Even if the other pups appear healthy they can be carriers of the problem, and should not breed. There are plenty of healthy dogs out there that do not produce any genetic problems, that we can work with. I don't just test my breeding pair, but also the puppies that are produced to make sure that they don't show up with the inherited LS. It is not very hard on the pups to be tested, and it sure sets my mind at ease. When I look on the internet and see people selling yorkies for 2000 to 5000 without any health guarntees, or tests for the inherited problems, I don't feel that I am asking too much for my pups that are sold with all shots, microchips, bile acid tested, legs tested, and the puppy package of home goodies. My pets go for around 1200 with the spay/neuter contract for pets, and if a show potential 1500+. That is my current prices but can change as time goes on. I know when I send the pup out, that it is healthy and has been well treated, and I expect the new parents to do the same. I expect to keep in touch will all the owners of my dogs until I die.

lksdolls · 03-01-2006, 12:37 PM

Our vet had just returned from a conference on LS the day before I visited him, like two, maybe three years ago. He gave me a paper with infomation on LS and it stated that yorkies are 1200 times more likely to have or get liver shunts than any other breed. Even if both parents tested negative, you may still get a LS puppy, or they might develop it as an adult. If that's the case, all YT breeders are playing Russian Roulette.
It was only a month later when our son was concerned about his Corgi not eatting. I started telling him about LS and it turned out his Corgi had LS and they lost him.

I'm sure I'm going to get some reation with this.....

When adults breed (been around dogs too long......) we all hope for a healthy baby.

Sometimes that is not the case and there may be siblings that are fine. And sometimes there is no logical explaination for the heriditary disease but science tells us it had to be there, somewhere. And as we grow old, we develop deadly ailments.

So should we not breed (have children) in the first place just in case? Yes, we should be cautious and responsible, but sometimes all the caution in the world won't change the outcome.
Just my thoughts...........

Linda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Yorkies

Thank you everyone for your help and sharing your personal experiences with me. What really sparked my interest in this as I do have both the Yorkshires and Biewers. I do try to research as much as possible. It was today when I was reading something on LS that I hadn't realized that the stats show the Yorkshires are 36 times greater chance of acquiring liver shunt than any other purebreed combined. I felt these numbers are quite alarming..

I know of the health issues but I never realized the numbers were this high I had missed this in my time of researching... Then I was curious how it could be justified to continue such breedings. As I am questioned why I ask these questions. I thought this is were we come to learn?

Does this concern me in the Biewer breed? You bet it does. This breed is so intertwined due to the fact it is such a young breed that I think at one point in everyone's pedigrees we have a common ancestors. So if there is a LS in this breed it is a problem that should concern all of us...At least this is what I would think?

kisszoe · 03-01-2006, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lksdolls

Our vet had just returned from a conference on LS the day before I visited him, like two, maybe three years ago. He gave me a paper with infomation on LS and it stated that yorkies are 1200 times more likely to have or get liver shunts than any other breed. Even if both parents tested negative, you may still get a LS puppy, or they might develop it as an adult. If that's the case, all YT breeders are playing Russian Roulette.
It was only a month later when our son was concerned about his Corgi not eatting. I started telling him about LS and it turned out his Corgi had LS and they lost him.

I'm sure I'm going to get some reation with this.....

When adults breed (been around dogs too long......) we all hope for a healthy baby.

Sometimes that is not the case and there may be siblings that are fine. And sometimes there is no logical explaination for the heriditary disease but science tells us it had to be there, somewhere. And as we grow old, we develop deadly ailments.

So should we not breed (have children) in the first place just in case? Yes, we should be cautious and responsible, but sometimes all the caution in the world won't change the outcome.
Just my thoughts...........

Linda

I really appreciate your thoughts. I think you are right. My vet even told me that very same thing about needing to exercise caution and do the best you can to breed the right dogs, but that is really all you can do. Sometimes even your very best efforts to avoid problems won't work and mother nature will always do her own thing. Hope that made sense. Anyway...thanks for your post!

whispersmom2 · 03-01-2006, 02:11 PM

"I can't imagine a breeder of any breed, especially those getting into Biewers not spaying and neutering the pups for several generations to make their lines are sound and ensure LS and other issues are not prevalint before selling to others for breeding."

To clarify my post I was responding to this statement about s/n the pups and I interpreted that to mean ALL puppies for several generations. Whether one or both parents had ever thrown LS puppies was not an issue in this statement IMO..I read this to mean that the breeder should not keep a puppy or two back and have the option to breed one or both if they choose when all test neg for LS or other genetic conditions. It simply appeared that all puppies were to be altered and I do not understand that reasoning. I do agree that great care must be taken before any puppies are selected to sell to others for any purpose.
Am I mis-reading what the poster meant to say?

YorkieRini · 03-01-2006, 03:08 PM

I went back and reread what I posted on this entire thread and I think I was pretty clear as to what I meant, in each post. Must have been a misunderstanding of my posts.

My quote was referring to breeders selling their pups unaltered without knowing the lines or what the pairs will produce. If you read the sentence above my quote and the part of my quote you didn't bold, that's specifically what I was talking about.

whispersmom2 · 03-01-2006, 11:36 PM

I am trying once more to try to understand the postings. In #16you said to s/n ALL puppies for several gens to set the lines. The post said all puppies and there was no mention of keeping healthy pups back even though the parents had never thrown LS. I responded to the s/n ALL puppies as an overkill. That would leave none of your own puppies to work with in your lo=ines of healthy animals. You asked how could you control LS to some degree if you don't do that-meaning S/N ALL puppies for several gens.
Then in post #25 it reads "All the puppies I produce and not keep back for myself will be s/n" Now, there is mention of healthy puppies from healthy parents being kept back so obviously those would NOT be s/n.
Then in #37 the poster "someone said something about it being overkill to S/N healthy puppies from parents that have thrown LS pups". I specifically said "from parents who had NOT thrown LS"...I know this is a heated topic and I appreciate that fact. BUT, I also know that the truth is always the same but we can distort what we see as facts.
I am quite sure those members who have no interest in this issue are tired of reading these posts so I, for one, am saying "I have had enough and choose not to debate or discuss this further." I will wait til I can see a very well-translated copy of the regs from IBC and go from there. I DO NOT MEAN ABOUT LS (those dogs should NEVER be bred together again no matter what)but about breeding these Biewer Yorkshire terrier a la pom pons and the best program for them....
Adios!!!!

YorkieRini · 03-02-2006, 04:56 AM

I'm not sure why there is focus on only my post. By all means this is my opinion and what I practice. This is nothing new, it's on my website I've said it on YT before.
S/N all puppies that leave my home I have a breeding quality or show quality puppy. Then I will keep it back for myself OR offer it to a friend I trust 110%. Meaning I don't just sell an intact puppy because the risk is far too great. Especially with the Biewers, we have LS to worry about and greedy money hungry people that don't care about papers.
I am very passionate about this. This is how I run my 'ship'.

I couldnt' imagine running a breeding program any other way.

mmyorkies · 03-02-2006, 11:37 AM

There are never any guarantee's with life, all that we, as breeders can do is to test our breeding pair, and test each puppy, and do this every time we breed, or get a new dog. By testing for the problems, we are less likely to be passing on any genetic problems. Yes, they can get shunts as adults, but this is not the same as the genetic problem. It is referred to as an acquired shunt, and is the result of some other illness. We can only do the best we are able to and the rest is in God's hands.

03-01-2006, 09:03 AM	#34
hockeymom YT Addict Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 418	When you as a buyer end up with one of these LS or MVD puppies you understand the heartache and the $$$$$ for vet bills you have with these babies. Anyone can get a LS or MVD puppy when they breed..... this is not the issue......the issue is if you do nothing about it. We are all at risk breeders and buyers alike when someone knows and contiues to breed with LS or MVD. When LS or MVD is mentiond many breeders run and refuse to talk about it, and refusue to admit they have it in their lines. This is why there are so many of these babies suffering from LS and MVD. __________________ Deb Scooter,Cheyenne, and Dakota

03-01-2006, 10:13 AM	#36
Snow Yorkies Biewer Passionate Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Southern AL Posts: 1,684	Since we are talking now about the Biewer pup that died from LS. It is a well known fact the the factoring parents are still being breed. To one another and the stud is continuing to be used for example he is the sire for the new BIRO yorkie. The newest spin off of the Biewers! Geesh.. the Biewers don't even have a good foundation yet. Talk about trying to cash in! __________________ Dare to Dream Biewers Charter Member of BAPPC

03-01-2006, 07:28 AM	#31
Bizzymammabee Luvs Lulu Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 6,931 Blog Entries: 1	You know if more breeders acted as responsibly as you did then maybe we would have less problems later on. I really think you are a special person and the support and help you gave to that family went above and beyond and it just shows you are not in it to make money. BTW how stressful is the testing on the puppy?

03-01-2006, 07:45 AM	#33
Bizzymammabee Luvs Lulu Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 6,931 Blog Entries: 1	Very sad that these breeders have no conscience. It's amazing how they will find a way to make a buck no matter what. There should really be some more definitive monitoring of these breeders and their kennels.

03-01-2006, 02:11 PM	#40
whispersmom2 Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MD Posts: 2,985	"I can't imagine a breeder of any breed, especially those getting into Biewers not spaying and neutering the pups for several generations to make their lines are sound and ensure LS and other issues are not prevalint before selling to others for breeding." To clarify my post I was responding to this statement about s/n the pups and I interpreted that to mean ALL puppies for several generations. Whether one or both parents had ever thrown LS puppies was not an issue in this statement IMO..I read this to mean that the breeder should not keep a puppy or two back and have the option to breed one or both if they choose when all test neg for LS or other genetic conditions. It simply appeared that all puppies were to be altered and I do not understand that reasoning. I do agree that great care must be taken before any puppies are selected to sell to others for any purpose. Am I mis-reading what the poster meant to say?

03-01-2006, 03:08 PM	#41
YorkieRini Livin' La Yorkie Local Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 1,607	I went back and reread what I posted on this entire thread and I think I was pretty clear as to what I meant, in each post. Must have been a misunderstanding of my posts. My quote was referring to breeders selling their pups unaltered without knowing the lines or what the pairs will produce. If you read the sentence above my quote and the part of my quote you didn't bold, that's specifically what I was talking about.

03-01-2006, 11:36 PM	#42
whispersmom2 Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MD Posts: 2,985	I am trying once more to try to understand the postings. In #16you said to s/n ALL puppies for several gens to set the lines. The post said all puppies and there was no mention of keeping healthy pups back even though the parents had never thrown LS. I responded to the s/n ALL puppies as an overkill. That would leave none of your own puppies to work with in your lo=ines of healthy animals. You asked how could you control LS to some degree if you don't do that-meaning S/N ALL puppies for several gens. Then in post #25 it reads "All the puppies I produce and not keep back for myself will be s/n" Now, there is mention of healthy puppies from healthy parents being kept back so obviously those would NOT be s/n. Then in #37 the poster "someone said something about it being overkill to S/N healthy puppies from parents that have thrown LS pups". I specifically said "from parents who had NOT thrown LS"...I know this is a heated topic and I appreciate that fact. BUT, I also know that the truth is always the same but we can distort what we see as facts. I am quite sure those members who have no interest in this issue are tired of reading these posts so I, for one, am saying "I have had enough and choose not to debate or discuss this further." I will wait til I can see a very well-translated copy of the regs from IBC and go from there. I DO NOT MEAN ABOUT LS (those dogs should NEVER be bred together again no matter what)but about breeding these Biewer Yorkshire terrier a la pom pons and the best program for them.... Adios!!!!

03-02-2006, 04:56 AM	#43
YorkieRini Livin' La Yorkie Local Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 1,607	I'm not sure why there is focus on only my post. By all means this is my opinion and what I practice. This is nothing new, it's on my website I've said it on YT before. S/N all puppies that leave my home I have a breeding quality or show quality puppy. Then I will keep it back for myself OR offer it to a friend I trust 110%. Meaning I don't just sell an intact puppy because the risk is far too great. Especially with the Biewers, we have LS to worry about and greedy money hungry people that don't care about papers. I am very passionate about this. This is how I run my 'ship'. I couldnt' imagine running a breeding program any other way.

03-02-2006, 11:37 AM	#44
mmyorkies No Longer a Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 357	There are never any guarantee's with life, all that we, as breeders can do is to test our breeding pair, and test each puppy, and do this every time we breed, or get a new dog. By testing for the problems, we are less likely to be passing on any genetic problems. Yes, they can get shunts as adults, but this is not the same as the genetic problem. It is referred to as an acquired shunt, and is the result of some other illness. We can only do the best we are able to and the rest is in God's hands.