Liver shunt questions ?? - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

YorkieRini · 02-28-2006, 02:37 AM

It's really scarey to think about having a pup with LS. Breeding Biewers to Yorkies or Biewers the risk is still there. The stats Sue just posted about Yorkies. The gene is the same in either breed. We are all at risk (yorkie breeders and biewer breeders) to be pleagued with LS. The sad part is that Biewers are such a 'hot' item and the only parties that are interested in them at this point are breeders. So the flood gates are opened everyone is getting Biewers for breeding. And I'm sure the breeders are selling their puppies for breeding as well before they even know what their lines will produce. It's all about the money. Everyone is rushing out to buy lots and lots of unrealted Biewers. One never knows what the pairs will produce. It's just out of control. I am going into Biewers very cautiously.
I can't imagine a breeder of any breed, especially those getting into Biewers not spaying and neutering the pups for several generations to make their lines are sound and ensure LS and other issues are not prevalint before selling to others for breeding.

mmyorkies · 02-28-2006, 08:31 AM

Liver shunt has already showed up in the Biewers in the US. This happened when Terri was still alive, and she did contact the owner and tried to convince them to neuter/spay the pair that produced the LS puppy, but if I remember right the person was very put out and refused to do that. It was up on a website for a while, but I'll be darned if I can remember what one.

mmyorkies · 02-28-2006, 10:28 AM

Here is the site with the information on the Liver Shunt Biewer. the one that died from it was named Decoration and the information is on this site.

http://www.biewercoa.org/welcome.html

kisszoe · 02-28-2006, 03:39 PM

Thanks to everyone who is sharing their knowledge on this subject. It is something I want to understand better as well. Sue, great thread...thanks again!

whispersmom2 · 02-28-2006, 06:41 PM

I have read the site that is linked to this thread months ago and I am trying to recall how long that puppy had been sick. For some reason it sticks in my mind that the puppy became sick and died overnight. Am I remembering correctly? If not, will someone straighten me out? If I am right, has ANYONE ever heard of a dog dying of LS so quickly?
That would scare me more than anything else about the condition, I think. Can you imagine a healthy dog yesterday and a dead one tomorrow??
The BA tests in very young puppies can be less accurate than those done at 6 months or so which is the age that he died....I would like any info anyone has on that dog and his death..
As for spaying and neutering all puppies as has been suggested til the lines are set, seems like overkill to me. Like using a shotgun to kill a fly. If all offspring are S/N then how will different lines be developed if a dog throws LS at some point? I am confused about the reasoning behind this procedure..

YorkieRini · 02-28-2006, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whispersmom2

I have read the site that is linked to this thread months ago and I am trying to recall how long that puppy had been sick. For some reason it sticks in my mind that the puppy became sick and died overnight. Am I remembering correctly? If not, will someone straighten me out? If I am right, has ANYONE ever heard of a dog dying of LS so quickly?
That would scare me more than anything else about the condition, I think. Can you imagine a healthy dog yesterday and a dead one tomorrow??
The BA tests in very young puppies can be less accurate than those done at 6 months or so which is the age that he died....I would like any info anyone has on that dog and his death..
As for spaying and neutering all puppies as has been suggested til the lines are set, seems like overkill to me. Like using a shotgun to kill a fly. If all offspring are S/N then how will different lines be developed if a dog throws LS at some point? I am confused about the reasoning behind this procedure..

How else can you control LS to some degree if you don't do that? That's the only way I think we can keep the defect to a minimum.

whispersmom2 · 02-28-2006, 08:21 PM

Let's see...how to say this. If we S/N ALL healthy puppies and then say after 5 healthy litters that are S/N our parents throw a LS puppy. We have no healthy puppies from OUR OWN lines to draw from and start with healthy puppies again. Even that does not splain the whole picture.
To me S/N ALL puppies even though they have no symptoms or positive studies is like using a shotgun to kill a pissant. JMO
I am aware that the issues surrounding breeding especially as it relates to Biewers is being discussed far and wide and has been approached in Canada. I a think that we need to stand back and take a look at how every other breed progressed before we make some rash decisions. I would love to hear how the old pro Yorkie breeders developed their lines and if they S/N ALL of their puppies at first.
I just do not understand this line of reasoning...

Snow Yorkies · 02-28-2006, 10:04 PM

Here are a couple of links:

http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs/shunt/faq.shtml
http://www.tsfannymaelivershunt.com/main.html

I think since this post went from LS to LS in the Biewers which is fine I thought I would share
the link for the letter written from fanny mae on the liver shunt Biewer puppy.
http://www.biewercoa.org/livershunt.html

My feelings are that LS is really nothing to fool around with. I would hate the thought of knowing that I had the breeding combination for LS and continued to breed them.
I orginally posted this as I know that their are those that will play Russian roulette in breeding and I was just wondering how this can be justified. To learn as well if there was a breeding curve in eliminating LS by a means of proper breeding.

I really appreciate everyone's views whether I agree or not. I think it is about learning and not judging and I hope I haven't offended anyone either. Thanks!!

Itspuppyluv · 02-28-2006, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whispersmom2

I have read the site that is linked to this thread months ago and I am trying to recall how long that puppy had been sick. For some reason it sticks in my mind that the puppy became sick and died overnight. Am I remembering correctly? If not, will someone straighten me out?

You are right. I read about Decoration around the time I first got Gus and it scared the hell out of me because it was so sudden. I didn't know much about LS and I was afraid it could happen anytime without warning. I can't find it now but there was more written about it - losing him, learning from the doctors, dealing with the breeder.

YorkieRini · 03-01-2006, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whispersmom2

Let's see...how to say this. If we S/N ALL healthy puppies and then say after 5 healthy litters that are S/N our parents throw a LS puppy. We have no healthy puppies from OUR OWN lines to draw from and start with healthy puppies again. Even that does not splain the whole picture.
To me S/N ALL puppies even though they have no symptoms or positive studies is like using a shotgun to kill a pissant. JMO
I am aware that the issues surrounding breeding especially as it relates to Biewers is being discussed far and wide and has been approached in Canada. I a think that we need to stand back and take a look at how every other breed progressed before we make some rash decisions. I would love to hear how the old pro Yorkie breeders developed their lines and if they S/N ALL of their puppies at first.
I just do not understand this line of reasoning...

In my program, here is what I do with my Yorkies and will do with my Biewers. All the puppies I produce and not keep back for myself will be s/n. Healthy puppies can be carriers as you know.
Others say s/n contract (I believe you said that about your own puppies). I am not willing to risk my pups getting into the wrong hands so instead of a contract (realistically can't be enforced) I s/n my puppies before they leave. So, if you write up a s/n contract doesn't that mean overkill for you too? Maybe we are having a miscommunication but what you said about your Biewer/Parti pups states a contract to s/n is OK but, me ditching the contract and having the s/n done while is my care is not because it's overkill?

YorkieRini · 03-01-2006, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmyorkies

Here is the site with the information on the Liver Shunt Biewer. the one that died from it was named Decoration and the information is on this site.

http://www.biewercoa.org/welcome.html

There are different theories about this particular incident. I do not like to speculate unless I was actually a part of it. Only the breeder and the owner know the truth.

mmyorkies · 03-01-2006, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieRini

There are different theories about this particular incident. I do not like to speculate unless I was actually a part of it. Only the breeder and the owner know the truth.

Whether there are different theories or not, there is no disputing the fact that the dog DID die from Liver Shunt. I have a dog that had a liver shunt, and I know it is nothing to fool around with. It WILL KILL the dog if not taken care of. I contacted the breeder about my dog, and then we contacted the breeder that she got her dog from. The one that sold the mother of my dog just outright absolutly refused to accept that her dog could have produced anything like Liver Shunt, even though we traced the line back and found several that were known to throw shunt dogs in the line. I quit showing mine, and had her spayed when the shunt surgery was done, her mother was already dead from complications before and her father was spayed so it ended this event from continuing on to another. Oh and the other pup from the litter was also neutered.

What a lot of old time breeders did was hide their heads in the sand about this, which is why there is so much of it now.

mmyorkies · 03-01-2006, 07:16 AM

Oh forgot to mention that the breeder that didn't want to believe that her dog threw a shunt puppy has also sold several sick puppies, and have had puppies die that she sold. She is now trying to show her dogs by teaming up with another breeder. She sold puppies that ended up with Parvo, ring worm, and other diseases. She is from Georgia.

YorkieRini · 03-01-2006, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmyorkies

Whether there are different theories or not, there is no disputing the fact that the dog DID die from Liver Shunt. I have a dog that had a liver shunt, and I know it is nothing to fool around with. It WILL KILL the dog if not taken care of. I contacted the breeder about my dog, and then we contacted the breeder that she got her dog from. The one that sold the mother of my dog just outright absolutly refused to accept that her dog could have produced anything like Liver Shunt, even though we traced the line back and found several that were known to throw shunt dogs in the line. I quit showing mine, and had her spayed when the shunt surgery was done, her mother was already dead from complications before and her father was spayed so it ended this event from continuing on to another. Oh and the other pup from the litter was also neutered.

What a lot of old time breeders did was hide their heads in the sand about this, which is why there is so much of it now.

That explains it.

YorkieRini · 03-01-2006, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmyorkies

Whether there are different theories or not, there is no disputing the fact that the dog DID die from Liver Shunt. I have a dog that had a liver shunt, and I know it is nothing to fool around with. It WILL KILL the dog if not taken care of. I contacted the breeder about my dog, and then we contacted the breeder that she got her dog from. The one that sold the mother of my dog just outright absolutly refused to accept that her dog could have produced anything like Liver Shunt, even though we traced the line back and found several that were known to throw shunt dogs in the line. I quit showing mine, and had her spayed when the shunt surgery was done, her mother was already dead from complications before and her father was spayed so it ended this event from continuing on to another. Oh and the other pup from the litter was also neutered.

What a lot of old time breeders did was hide their heads in the sand about this, which is why there is so much of it now.

Maybe I gave the wrong impression in my reply. I wasn't implying that Decoration didn't have LS. The theories I speak of are how the actual situation was handled. The breeder offered to do something , then some say the breeder didn't. Those are the 'theories' I was actually referring to.

Is it overkill to s/n pups from LS parents if they are healthy? I wouldn't keep anything back for myself to breed out of LS parents even if they were healthy.
I guess what's the best way to minimize or try to get a handle of LS when starting a breeding program?

02-28-2006, 10:04 PM	#23
Snow Yorkies Biewer Passionate Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Southern AL Posts: 1,684	Here are a couple of links: http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs/shunt/faq.shtml http://www.tsfannymaelivershunt.com/main.html I think since this post went from LS to LS in the Biewers which is fine I thought I would share the link for the letter written from fanny mae on the liver shunt Biewer puppy. http://www.biewercoa.org/livershunt.html My feelings are that LS is really nothing to fool around with. I would hate the thought of knowing that I had the breeding combination for LS and continued to breed them. I orginally posted this as I know that their are those that will play Russian roulette in breeding and I was just wondering how this can be justified. To learn as well if there was a breeding curve in eliminating LS by a means of proper breeding. I really appreciate everyone's views whether I agree or not. I think it is about learning and not judging and I hope I haven't offended anyone either. Thanks!! __________________ Dare to Dream Biewers Charter Member of BAPPC

02-28-2006, 02:37 AM	#16
YorkieRini Livin' La Yorkie Local Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 1,607	It's really scarey to think about having a pup with LS. Breeding Biewers to Yorkies or Biewers the risk is still there. The stats Sue just posted about Yorkies. The gene is the same in either breed. We are all at risk (yorkie breeders and biewer breeders) to be pleagued with LS. The sad part is that Biewers are such a 'hot' item and the only parties that are interested in them at this point are breeders. So the flood gates are opened everyone is getting Biewers for breeding. And I'm sure the breeders are selling their puppies for breeding as well before they even know what their lines will produce. It's all about the money. Everyone is rushing out to buy lots and lots of unrealted Biewers. One never knows what the pairs will produce. It's just out of control. I am going into Biewers very cautiously. I can't imagine a breeder of any breed, especially those getting into Biewers not spaying and neutering the pups for several generations to make their lines are sound and ensure LS and other issues are not prevalint before selling to others for breeding.

02-28-2006, 08:31 AM	#17
mmyorkies No Longer a Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 357	Liver shunt has already showed up in the Biewers in the US. This happened when Terri was still alive, and she did contact the owner and tried to convince them to neuter/spay the pair that produced the LS puppy, but if I remember right the person was very put out and refused to do that. It was up on a website for a while, but I'll be darned if I can remember what one.

02-28-2006, 10:28 AM	#18
mmyorkies No Longer a Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 357	Here is the site with the information on the Liver Shunt Biewer. the one that died from it was named Decoration and the information is on this site. http://www.biewercoa.org/welcome.html

02-28-2006, 03:39 PM	#19
kisszoe Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Utah Posts: 45	Thanks to everyone who is sharing their knowledge on this subject. It is something I want to understand better as well. Sue, great thread...thanks again!

02-28-2006, 06:41 PM	#20
whispersmom2 Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MD Posts: 2,985	I have read the site that is linked to this thread months ago and I am trying to recall how long that puppy had been sick. For some reason it sticks in my mind that the puppy became sick and died overnight. Am I remembering correctly? If not, will someone straighten me out? If I am right, has ANYONE ever heard of a dog dying of LS so quickly? That would scare me more than anything else about the condition, I think. Can you imagine a healthy dog yesterday and a dead one tomorrow?? The BA tests in very young puppies can be less accurate than those done at 6 months or so which is the age that he died....I would like any info anyone has on that dog and his death.. As for spaying and neutering all puppies as has been suggested til the lines are set, seems like overkill to me. Like using a shotgun to kill a fly. If all offspring are S/N then how will different lines be developed if a dog throws LS at some point? I am confused about the reasoning behind this procedure..

02-28-2006, 08:21 PM	#22
whispersmom2 Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MD Posts: 2,985	Let's see...how to say this. If we S/N ALL healthy puppies and then say after 5 healthy litters that are S/N our parents throw a LS puppy. We have no healthy puppies from OUR OWN lines to draw from and start with healthy puppies again. Even that does not splain the whole picture. To me S/N ALL puppies even though they have no symptoms or positive studies is like using a shotgun to kill a pissant. JMO I am aware that the issues surrounding breeding especially as it relates to Biewers is being discussed far and wide and has been approached in Canada. I a think that we need to stand back and take a look at how every other breed progressed before we make some rash decisions. I would love to hear how the old pro Yorkie breeders developed their lines and if they S/N ALL of their puppies at first. I just do not understand this line of reasoning...

03-01-2006, 07:16 AM	#28
mmyorkies No Longer a Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 357	Oh forgot to mention that the breeder that didn't want to believe that her dog threw a shunt puppy has also sold several sick puppies, and have had puppies die that she sold. She is now trying to show her dogs by teaming up with another breeder. She sold puppies that ended up with Parvo, ring worm, and other diseases. She is from Georgia.