Early Spay/Neuter
 

I have wanted to start a thread about this for a while and it came up again tonight in a couple of threads with breeders rightfully concerned about protecting their lines.

I just wondered about how the procedure, for example, is different, if it is, for a puppy under 12 weeks, at what age or weight do they consider it safe, are the risks greater than for an older puppy, and that sort of thing? I know that the breeders who do this are concerned about the health and well being of their babies so I know they would not risk their health un reasonably but I know that I am petrified of putting my tiny dogs at 8 months under aneshtesia much less a young pup under a lb.

Hefner was under a lb when I got him at 12 weeks and he was already neutered.

My feelings on neutering are well known on here and I really am not looking for a debate about this but just the facts and any studies that anyone is aware of that prove this procedure is safe for young puppies.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Hefner was under 1lb when you got him, and he was nuetered...His surgery seems to have been successful, right...I think his breeder would be a great source for some of the answers you are seeking, since he/she did it to at least one dog before! I always wondered that when I visit certain sites and they say the baby is already nuetered @ 8wks. Either way you get the answer's I sure would like to know it also...Great Question, Kim.. and if you ever ask Hefner's breeder, can you post her answer here or pm me...I would really like to know how his recovery went and how long it took..you know thing's like that.... :thumbup:

I was gonna start a thread like this too for the same reason and to address some concerns I've heard about females being incontent after being spayed early..We have vet at my clinic that has participated in a study to see if in fact there are risks or reprocussions to earl s/n. Her findings are the same as described in these links. The risk is low blood sugar from fasting. It's suggested to supplement the smaller puppies with nutrical during the fast to mainian the glucose levels. The surgery is the same no matter the age or size. Your vet needs to have the best anesthetic (SEVO) and be skilled in doing puppies especially toy breeds. Fasting is done differently No more than 6-7 hrs in puppies and kittens. And there is no proof that early spaying causes health problems, perosnality probelms or incontentence. Positive findings are pups recover quicker.

My vet prefers to spay females that are more than 2 pounds age is not the driver. What I produce is around that size at 12-14 wks. Read the studies done by other vets with the same findings. As a breeder who incorporates this, it gives me comfort to know these studies have been done. Not only on puppies but kittens too.

http://www.cvm.uiuc.edu/ope/ivb/spay-neu.htm

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/earlysn.html

http://www.danesonline.com/earlyspayneuter.htm

This site said it all for me..these are experience shared by other breeders proving rumors of incontinece to be untrue. Surgery is a risk period. Age or size doesn't make it any more of a risk from what I've been told by my vet or from what I've read.
http://regaliapyrs.tripod.com/early_spay_neuter.htm

My vet by the way has done a spay on a 1.5 pound female Chi and it was succesful, that's the smallest she's spayed thus far..yet again, she recommends them to be 2 pounds at least.

By the way, I did do a search for complimations and all i found were assumptions..nothing proven by studies ..just occasional bad experiences..

Good thread Kim!

Irene thanks for the links! Hopefully I will become more comfortable with altering a very young puppy.. My vet also will not spay a female unless she weighs at least 2 lbs..

Thanks Irene, especially for posting the cons as I found this in the link and thought it was worth posting for the members here to read. It is a great example of the scare tactics and misuse of statisitics by vets to convince people that neutering is better for their dog's health.

Most of the links state that they, as vets, agree to early spay/neuter for pet over population but not to protect a breeder's lines. I have a problem with either of these reasons as an excuse to neuter a puppy.

Dr. Johnson,

The last time I was in with our Golden Retriever puppy, we talked about the time frame for having her neutered. At the time you suggested that we let her go through her first 'heat' to enable her to grow to her full potential. I agreed without question.

This weekend her 'heat' ended, at least from the standpoint that she's no longer spotting. I seem to remember that you suggested waiting until she was about a year old before you performed the surgery.

This morning, my wife stopped in to have our pup weighed (67 lbs.) and was told by several people, including, I believe, your associate, that she should have been neutered at 5 months and that we should bring her in soon (i.e. before her weight surpassed 75 pounds) in order to save money.


To me, the amount of money we're talking about is relatively insignificant compared with allowing her to develop to her full potential. I have full faith in your judgement, so I'm very interested in your opinion of when she should have the surgery.



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Dr. Johnson responds:

Hey there!
Thanks for the email - I understand your concern. You got the party line, and you see a discrepancy.


To the main point: You're doing the right thing, spaying after first heat.


But let's talk:


FACT:


If you have your dog spayed *before* her first WHOLE-YEAR is out, you greatly reduce, if not eliminate her chances of developing breast cancer.


What the doctor recites:


Spay before first heat = Reduced risk of breast cancer later.


Spay after first heat = Doubled (but reduced) chance of breast cancer later.


BEFORE you panic, let me explain that the above is the "Veterinary" party line that most doctors are attached to. But they're not telling (may not know) the whole story and neither is the Veterinary-establishment when they tell people this....The whole 'drive' is for "early" spay or neuter because in some (often rural) areas, this is a REAL problem. Which is; the first heat almost always ends up as a first pregnancy!


FACTS:


Spayed before first heat - lifetime chance of breast cancer = 1%


Spayed AFTER first heat - lifetime chance of breast cancer = 2%

One versus two percent.


So you see there's a number there that the "powers-that-be" can "play with" to essentially persuade people spay early.


Yes, the chances DOUBLE but when you're talking one versus two percent, there's a GREATER chance that she'd fall down the stairs, startled by a thunderclap, but only on a Thursday, and break her neck; than that she would EVER succumb to breast cancer.


Vanishingly small.


The difference: Well, the overall difference is a completely different dog in terms of bone mass, size, structure, relatively increased resistance to post-spay weight gain, and more complete psychological development which includes elements of loyalty, maternal-instinct-to-protect, feelings of territory and vigilance, etc.. Things that have not "occurred" to puppies at four to five months BUT which occur as an important part of a nesting (post-adolescent) instinct which dogs spayed young never get.



I think I shall print this for use at the office and web site because it does clarify a lot of things which I am sure other people will encounter over time.


If you have any concerns or questions please let me know. I have a real "soap box" about this because there's a difference in what you should tell under-educated people in pet-overpopulated areas versus what you can tell an educated middle class person who wants to do their best by their generally cool, healthy, normal dog.


For the record, none of my dogs (Penny, Trudy) are spayed. And they never will be because another thing that the establishment doesn't tell you (may not know) - the first and especially second heats are bloody and nasty but subsequent heats are really VERY mild and can be lived-with, no problem (at least from my small breed dogs).

By not spaying my dogs, AT ALL, I get two benefits:


1) My dogs can eat EVERYTHING (including tablescraps which I love to indulge them with, even though you're not supposed to) and they do not get an ounce of fat on them. Their metabolism is unedited.

2) My dogs WILL SURELY die of breast cancer or pyometra when they are about TEN OR ELEVEN years old; instead of surviving until they're seventeen as flakey-skinned, smelly, blind and bug-eyed, toothless, hobbling, skin-and-bones, falling-down-the-stairs, senile, wrecks. <My hot button>


It's NOT that I do not love my dogs. To the contrary. The worst, cruelest thing to do to a dog is carry it's time past the point of "companionable condition", and their own ability to have "fun".


The people who love THEMSELVES more than their dogs are the ones who say "I love my old paraplegic incontinent blind and deaf dog - and (s)he deserves a long life, every day God has given them!"

They're naturally (lovingly) selfish and don't want to let go. The ancient dog is incarcerated in a nasty-falling-apart prison and it's lifetime of freedom, boundless energy, close-human-contact (Licking your face) and individual vitality is a fading memory. They think the antique dog appreciates the sick-bed, the hesitant hand holding, the tears, and the time. They don't even 'understand' these human gestures in the face of their suffering.


Through a pet's life, we intervene with medicine when it's curable and/OR can restore health. That's good!!


But veterinarians ALSO intervene with medicine (like charlatans), when a condition is obviously INCURABLE and CANNOT restore any semblance of health - and it makes me want to quit this profession when people do that.

Some vets are doing that for the money-to-be-made on the "oh so profitable" downward spiral, but perhaps the majority because they are so "pro-animal" that they are blind to the suffering (and the broken spirit) of the pet itself.


How did we get on this subject from Spay?

I'm here. Email me or just call me any Monday or Friday. 770 977 5377


Thanks


Erik

Do any other breeders do early spay/neuter?

I really have not been in breeding long enough to have to make this decision, but if it was clear one of our pups should not be bred, I would either keep them until I had them spayed/neutered, or would sell on a s/n contract.

Quote}2) My dogs WILL SURELY die of breast cancer or pyometra when they are about TEN OR ELEVEN years old; instead of surviving until they're seventeen as flakey-skinned, smelly, blind and bug-eyed, toothless, hobbling, skin-and-bones, falling-down-the-stairs, senile, wrecks. <My hot button>


It's NOT that I do not love my dogs. To the contrary. The worst, cruelest thing to do to a dog is carry it's time past the point of "companionable condition", and their own ability to have "fun"."


My God, am I reading this right?
I have such a problem with this statement. First I know many dogs that are enjoying thir senior years with great vitality long past there 12th year. To think there lives would have been cut short because the owner didn't spay and they die of cancer or pyometra instead sickens me. How about this scenario instead, IF the dog has lost her zest for life and no longer is enjoying good days then humanely put her to sleep instead of letting some horrible disease eat up what life she does have left?
I won't let my nearly 10 yr old german shepherd and best friend read this, this morning he was leaping thru the air playing Kong and didn't look like he wanted to die next year. And this is a BIG dog. Typically they do not live nearly as long as our little yorkies.
When the day comes that I no longer feel he is enjoying his life I will make a decision I feel is best for him, however hard that may be. But to guarantee him cancer? No, I don't think so.

But thanks for posting the breast cancer stats, I waited til Mignon went thru her frst heat to spay.

I mostly posted that for the info on breat cancer as well as this where he is discussing the benefits to the dog and the owner of not neutering:

The difference: Well, the overall difference is a completely different dog in terms of bone mass, size, structure, relatively increased resistance to post-spay weight gain, and more complete psychological development which includes elements of loyalty, maternal-instinct-to-protect, feelings of territory and vigilance, etc.. Things that have not "occurred" to puppies at four to five months BUT which occur as an important part of a nesting (post-adolescent) instinct which dogs spayed young never get.

This is the most compelling reason for me in my decision not to neuter my girls as well as the risk and pain of the surgery itself.

I have no idea what breed of dog this vet has but I doubt as a vet he would let any of his own dogs suffer. I am sure he would put them out of their pain when he, from his educated standpoint, decided it was the best thing to do.

One of the best dogs I had as a child was a German Shepherd and she lived until she was 12. I am so glad yours is so happy and healthy and hope he stays that way for many more years.

Certainly I am sure as a vet he would put them to sleep before they were in pain. But it does state that he had very small dogs and 10 just isn't that old for a small dog :( .


I do understand waiting til they are more mature too spay, one of the reasons we waited(my vet and I) was in hopes Mignon would gain a little bulk. We did wait, she never did. My hopes now are that she will pick up a little more weight now that she has been spayed. Time will tell.

I would like to add that at 2 and a half lbs her spay and dental went perfectly. The only problems we had was a reaction to her internal stitches and keeping her from jumping up on everything. That might be easier with a small pup.

But Kim, I have to ask this. According to this vet, the dogs will SURELY get and die from either female cancer or pyometra at some point. Is that a risk you are willing to take with Chai and Ava? I am not sure if I see the difference in risking anesthesia and risking a premature death.I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to understand the reasoning.

[QUOTE=SoCalyorkiLvr]I mostly posted that for the info on breat cancer as well as this where he is discussing the benefits to the dog and the owner of not neutering:
The difference: Well, the overall difference is a completely different dog in terms of bone mass, size, structure, relatively increased resistance to post-spay weight gain, and more complete psychological development which includes elements of loyalty, maternal-instinct-to-protect, feelings of territory and vigilance, etc.. Things that have not "occurred" to puppies at four to five months BUT which occur as an important part of a nesting (post-adolescent) instinct which dogs spayed young never get.
QUOTE]

I'm not trying to turn this into a debate, I'm just confused about this.
He is comparing dogs that are neutered at an early age to ones neutered after there first heat, right? Not to dogs that aren't neutered?

[QUOTE=Itspuppyluv]Yes, in terms of that particular quote, yes, hence the topic of this thread.

While I agree that there may be a greater risk of pyometra and breast cancer, I also know that not neutering gives them a better quality of life and there are greater risks for other cancers like bladder cancer in neutered dogs than in unneutered dogs, so I have researched all of the risks and benefits and made the decision to leave my girls with their female parts and the hormones they need to live healthy, normal lives. :)

I was confused because you ended it at not neutered. Thanks for clearing that up.
I didn't mean it to come off like I was questioning you about not neutering your girls.
I've had many dogs and with the exception of an early death due to an accident every single (neutered) one lived to a happy, healthy old age - the youngest fourteen years old. So we will have to agree to disagree about that last part.

Here is an article from Best Friends that site studies done on Juvenile Neutering. I cannot copy the article as it is done in a PDF.

http://www.bestfriends.org/nomorehom...ry/snindex.cfm

Hey, Kim did you ever get in contact with Hefner's breeder to find out if she ever had any complications from early spay/nueter procedures...

Hi Kim. Am up late tonight and had time to respond to this. I have been early spay/neutering for years now. Two reasons I do this. To prevent the dog being bred and to prevent the new owner having to go through the trama of the spay/neutering. Heaven forbid the puppy die and just as with people anesthesia is still a risk on rare occasions. With todays anesthesia it's not common but it's easier for me to just do it.

The puppies have to be atleast 2 pounds in weight and I am able to do most of mine by 12 weeks, but on occasion a little later. One of the best benefits about it is everyone seems to be having a lot easier time potty training, which is a plus. The puppies go through the spay/neutering easier then an adult. Mine come home playing. I am extremely stressed while they are there though. :)

Hello,
I have been early spay/nuetering for 10 years now on my puppies before they leave my home. However if I do have a very small puppy at 3 mths. rule of thumb is to wait until they are 2 lbs. My vet works very closely with me on this. I also do blood profiles and bile acid testing around this time as well.
I have not had any bad experiences. However I do suggest that a pet person not presure their vet into doing this early for them. If it is going to be done the breeder should do it, then if something does happen the pet home will not have such a horrific loss. I know it would be the breeders but better me than the pet buyer! Not sure I would nueter a puppy only 1 lb. at 12 weeks, unless they had it done with the new laser that is out. I have heard about it but do not know much on it. Maybe someone else here does.

It's nice to see more positive experiences with early s/n. Cher and GiGi, what is most important when having the surgery done on a Yorkie at any age? I'm only asking for your opinions.

Mine is that the vet must be well versed in the updated medical technology, using the best anesthetic and etc..All to often I hear the blame of why NOT to is the risk of size. I personally don't think that's true. But again agree with the recomended guideline my vet uses which is the same as yours.

On a side note, the Chi I mentioned was an adult at 1.5 pounds, but still scarey none the less.

Thanks for your input. My breeding program is constantly evolving, I just incorporated early s/n end of last year. I am thrilled to hear positive results.

I'm not a breeder but I found this thread very informative and interesting. :thumbup:

Bump!
 

:thumbup:

Wow........ Thanks for all the information. I am not a breeder. I am just about to schedule my puppy's spaying. The thought of anesthesia is very scary for me personally so I waited. :p She is about 7 1/2 months old now and I thought I better hurry if it's to be done before her first heat (I don't know when it's gonna hit). After reading all the posts, I think maybe we got lucky by waiting a bit longer with all the benefits listed. :D Anyway, this is a great post :thumbup: and it has answered my questions on the timing part. Thank you. Between the chance of getting cancer of any kind and having her put under, I just have to get over my fear sooner or later. :) Thanks again for the infor.

Bump!
 

:thumbup:

Actually I don't think there is anything to worry about on early spay/neutering other than this being a healthy dog. Of course with their smaller size, being they are younger, if this is a liver shunt or heart problem dog or something, you are sure going to know it right away. To me that is just another plus, especially with the breeder taking on the responsibility.

Shelters have been spay/neutering small ones for years at this age and the larger breeds at 8 weeks. They get no hormones in them either which can happen before altering at 6 months. All around it's better. My new owners are thrilled to death and know they have one strong healthy puppy when they walk out of here.

Just curious about the procedure...if it is different in any way than when they do it on older dogs and have you ever lost a pup or had any other "bad" experiences or problems with this? Any develop incontinence later in life as I have heard this is a potential risk of spaying.

Why do you view the hormones as a negative thing?

Hi Kim. No never had any problems whatsoever, but I also have very healthy dogs. Hormones are what tends to cause cancer. Same as why women have to worry so much about taking supplemental hormones. Never lost a pup, but once again I have healthy dogs and am not going to lose them from spaying/neutering. This procedure is easy as can be on a puppy. It's the same procedure and an adult. Never once had one develop incontinence. Personally if they developed it my personal feeling is they were going to anyway, as that seems to run in lines.

When we had Muffie at the vet, we also took Missy with us and asked the vet at what age Missy could be spayed. And he said "SIX MONTHS". Darn, I was hoping he'd say earlier so we'd know for sure that she won't go into heat.

[QUOTE=Muffie's Mom]When we had Muffie at the vet, we also took Missy with us and asked the vet at what age Missy could be spayed. And he said "SIX MONTHS". Darn, I was hoping he'd say earlier so we'd know for sure that she won't go into heat..

Every dog I have ever had, the vet has always said, wait until they are at least 6 months to sp/n , why is that when obviously, it can be done sooner, with out problems?

Hi Pat. A lot of vets are afraid to spay/neuter younger than that. If the puppy has a shunt or heart problems, they worry about losing the dog.

I have had 2 dogs that came in heat at 6 months, but the majority come in way later. Of course most leave here spayed/neutered, since I keep very few, so I can't say at what age they would have come in.

I understand you wanting to get it done earlier, but don't press your vet. He needs to feel comfortable doing it. You might check your local kennel club though for some toy breeders of any breed and see if any of them have a vet that early spay/neuters. If not, just get her in as quickly as you can hoping to beat her from having her 1st cycle. Good luck.

I would think that if you have a pup s/n, this would be a rather hard thing to determine as far as if it was actually casued from the spaying. You have no before and after comparison that can be made that would enable you to say, "OK, this is happening because of the s/n." Many dogs develop this problem with older age, s/n or not. I would think it would be impossible to tell for sure if s/n was the actual cause.
I would presume the only way you could know for sure is if you had a middle age dog w/ no problems in this area at all, had the s/n done, and immediately or soon after started having these issues? Wouldn't you think? :confused:
I don't know, this is just my take and reasoning on the situation.