That is certainly a BIG reason for some to make the decision to ESN. I do not fault anyone for this view. It is commendable for sure. As I stated earlier, I also volunteer at my local humane society so I am more than aware of the problem.

Breeders do not ESN for this reason alone however and neither do vets. If it were all about "social responsibility" then we would have to ask breeders not to breed or at least restrict them to a certain number of litters and require that they be licensed and fully trained, etc.

Not to be personal but despite your experiences in the shelter you did not rescue a dog, but rather bought one, as did I, and so many others on here, so I am just saying that we can all do our part to battle the pet over population problem in our own way w/o compromising the needs of our own family members and circumstances. :)

I am not positive but from what I have heard yorkies are not in much danger in this area as they are quickly rescued and adopted from what I can tell.

Cindy can you answer this? Are yorkies a breed that is high in the euthanized shelter/rescue animal statistics?

Another factor that needs to be considered: Maybe they are not in danger at shelters/rescues, but are they in danger in the hands of a miller? Obviously if a miller was only given the option to purchase an altered animal, they wouldn't have much option now would they. S/n a pup to keep it out of the hands of a potential miller is also a benefit. Yes, you can get to know prospective owners, but sometimes people put on a good show.

No your question is not too personal. :) I bought Tia rather then adopt from a rescue/shelter because I didn't want too wait long for another dog. I had just lost my precious Katie to a tragic accident and then the very next day I lost my mother. I was very lonely and depressed (I'm still very depressed in fact) and I felt like my house was too quiet with only 1 dog. At first, I felt guilty because I thought I was betraying Katie's memory by getting a second dog so quickly after her death. But I truly needed another dog -- Tia has helped me so much to cope with my grief.

So that is why I purchased a dog rather then adopt. I didn't want to wait a long time for a Yorkie to come into a shelter by me (there were none at the time -- I know because I made a few calls to check).

Kim~I respect your view and those of this doctor. However, there are also doctors who have found that feel just the opposite is the case. Seems like more a matter of opinon from vet to vet. You have to read their comments take them for what they are and move on. There really is no need to sit and debate about 1 vet's opinion.

I am curious then.....when you made the decision to implement ESN into your breeding program and .......

Before this thread.....did you for example KNOW about the

Increased risk of Parvo?
Increased surgical risk due to age and size?
Increased risk of penis/vulva dermatitus and lack of extrusion?
Increased potential for obesity?
Increased risk of prostate cancer?
Increased risk of Bladder cancer?
Increased chance of incontinence?
Lack of Gender Characteristics?
Loss of all characterisitics and attributes associated with natural maturation?

If you did and you made the decision to use ESN in your program in spite of these then I have to agree.....there is nothing I can say that will change your mind. You have made an educated decision for your program based on knowledge of all of the facts that WE presently know.

I do not think that most of the members here knew these things and therefore they were not figuring them into the risk vs. benefit equation.

I just feel that everyone needs to know the facts on BOTH sides. It is only right. :thumbup:

This statement is more than his opinion. They are scientific facts supported by scientific studies.

The difference is that most vets know these facts but do not give them the weight that some pet owners may give them.

Again, I just think we need to be aware of all of the facts we can when we are considering this major surgery on tiny puppies. :thumbup:

Again, you state this things and claim they are facts. What makes them facts? Because a particular vet or group of vets says it is so? Because this was the result of a study? What about the vets and studies that show the opposite? Why should they be discredited?
There are vets, sources, links, studies that all show exactly the opposite of what this individual claims. Plus, some of these you have stated have yet to be explained, as I have already pointed out twice. How can anyone consider something a factor if they have NO clue what it means?

Again, facts based on the studies HE chose to follow. Other facts from other studies show something different. So it is his OPINION that these specific results are what should be considered.

My point is that I feel it is wrong to judge people so harshly (calling me socially irresponsible for example for asking for ALL of the facts about ESN and saying that people should be free to make their own health decisions for their babies) or condemning those who breed when the shelters are full or criticizing those who buy from a pet store when it does not get it's puppies from a puppymill.

Just like you, we all have our own personal reasons for the choices we make and others may not understand or would never make the same choices, but we need to be more respectful of people's choices, and trust that they will do the responsible thing for them even if it is different from what you believe. :thumbup:

Show me a study that disproves what he states in that paragraph. All of the studies posted here confirm his quote.

What he said in the paragraph you quoted from him, or what you said in your reply to Irene. Please specify.

Again...show me the studies which refute these findings. All of the studies posted so far confirm them ...they are just given much weight by the vets and breeders in making their decision to ESN because they place more value on the pet over population problem and the need to protect their lines.

These FACTS are not important to them in other words. This is my main point.

If there is true controversy and some of these things are unproven, as in the area of over-vaccination, I feel they should still be KNOWN so that everyone has the right to operate from a level playing field with nothing hidden, glossed over or misrepresented.

The only reason anyone can give for non-disclosure of these things is that they are afraid it may cause some to act irresponsibly.......It is not our job to contol people....but to give them the facts and trust them to make the decision that is right for them.

I will be glad to address these and discuss them with you in addition to givin you my thoughts, feel free to share yours too. OK, let's start one at a time, shall we?

Let's go with this one: "Lack of Gender Characteristics"

My questions and point: What are these? The source lists them, but I have yet to see any explanation as to what they are. Plus, this link you posted is from 1993...surely you cannot argue that something from 1993 can automatically be considered as still "fact" and "valid?" Also, this site is breed specific...a study and site about Labrodors, not Yorkies. I am sure you can agree that vets should focus their attention differently when big vs small breeds are concerned? How do we even know, that this would apply to a small breed? The study obviously was done on Labs, which have a different genetic composition that could have an influence on the outcome of the findings. In you opinion, do you think this individual (we can address the others later) fact should be considered heavily when considering a basis for an individuals breeding practice?

To put it simply, the characteristics referred to are ALL of those that differentiate male behavior from female behavior in dogs. Females are typcially nurturing, affectionate, maternal, protective, etc. Males are loyal, good hunters, physical and "macho" for lack of a better word...lol.....

Just think what people would be like if we took away their sex hormones when they were toddlers. Boys and girls would not be very different since they aren't pre-puberty.

This 1993 article is valid until new studies are conducted to disprove what it asserts. Most scientific discoveries and facts remain such until they are disproven, if that ever happens, sometime in the future. An elementary example of this is the fact that the world is not flat and that discovery and fact was made many many years ago and is still valid today because it has not been proven incorrect.

While the article was posted on a Labrador retriever site, the article was written from the following sources which are non-breed specific. In other words the article was not breed specific.
REFERENCES:

Barrett, Ralph E. and Theilen, Gordon H.: Neoplasms of the Canine and Feline Reproductive Tracts. In Kirk, Robert W. (ed.): Current Veterinary Therapy VI. Philadelphia, W.B. Saunders Co., 1977.
Osborne, Carl A. and Oliver, John E.: Non-neurogenic urinary incontinence. In Kirk, Robert W. (ed.): Current Veterinary Therapy VI. Philadelphia, W.B. Saunders Co., 1977.
Schneider et. al.: Factors influencing canine mammary cancer development and post-surgical survival. J.Natl.Cancer Institute, 43: 1249, 1969.

How heavily any given fact is weighed has to depend on the person making the valuation and for what animal. A vet working in a shelter for homeless pets may not care much at all that a dog is "androgenous" and lacking in gender specific traits but a family that already has a female yorkie and wants to experience a male, may care greatly and a hunter who wants a male for a hunting dog may care as well.

What? :confused: I never judged you or called you socially irresponsible. Is this post directed at me or in general? I ask because you quoted my post with your comments. I'm confused. :confused:

Oh no, Jen...not you...I thought you said you agreed with Cindy (livingdustmops) when she questioned my sense of social responsibility... :confused:

Sorry if I misunderstood...... :(

Kim, why do you keep doing this? You start threads saying you want information and when people reply, you turn it into forum for expressing your views and belittling the views of others.

It gets tiresome.

Kim~ Here is another, more recent article (1999 vs 1993) you may want to look over. It addresses several of the points you have brought up here.

It states that there is no evidence that there is a higher incontinence in ESN or spayed vs unspayed dogs in general for that matter.--so I guess this "fact" has since been proven untrue?

It also states that the "gender characteristics" relate only to the size of the external genitalia but that there is no other evidence of clinical signifigance.--I guess this would be a set-back if you were particularly concerned about the size of the dog's...um, "stuff." (I for one, really don't care.)

http://www.petfinder.org/journalinde...ne/2.21.19.txt

I do agree with you.

However, these threads are often locked...hmmm...and no resolution is ever made. Perhaps if once and for all we get to the bottom of it, if there is such a thing, and discuss every possibility and aspect, this will come to an end?
Kim, do you think this would be possible? If all that happens is facts are determined and examined more thoroughly, we will all benefit and learn from it...this is your goal, right?

???????????????? :confused: :(

I haven't belittled anyone and I started this thread to get info. Misty has decided she wants to ask about my sources for the info in an effort to learn even more and I am obliging her with answers. This is how we learn...free exchange of facts, ideas, sources and opinions

If you don't apppreciate the info on this :) thread or just don't like the thread then you are free to ignore it.

I wanted to get Mr. Hobbs neutered as soon as I could with it still being safe. I wanted to get him fixed before he realized what was down there, and before he started humping, etc. I asked my vet about it, and he said that technically you can neuter a dog safely whenever their testicles drop. He also said that the humane shelter neuters them as early as 6 weeks, but he said that since the testicles are not dropped by then, this really is not safe. Mr. Hobbs testicles were dropped at 3 months, so I asked him if he could neuter him then. However, the vet said that the reason vets like to wait until dogs are at least 6 months old is because at 6 months most dogs are almost finished growing. The more weight a dog has on it, the less risk they have with anesthesia. He said it is very dangerous to anesthesize really small dogs. So, you can technically do it whenever, but it is safest to do it when they get some weight on them.

I have no idea about girl dogs. Why would you want to pre-maturely spay a female dog anyway??

I think we misunderstood each other. :( Sorry about that. :p

I am not breeder so someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong but I believe some breeders spay their females before they sell them to 100% ensure that they will never be bred by their new owners.

I'm sure there are other reasons too.

No problem.....no harm done... :)

This is a very good question but the concern of some breeders is that they cannot trust a buyer not to breed a female that they have produced and they feel that they "own" the right to control their "lines", the pedigrees of their breeding stock and they do not want dogs reproducing unless they approve of the matings.

The other argument in favor of ESN is the problem with the over population of dogs in our society and the fact that millions are put to death every year and are homeless. ESN would help control this problem.

Yes, isn't that what we do when we post on here and when we read, we are learning from each other? :confused: :)

To think you can "get to the bottom of it" however may be too optimistic because they is a rarely a black and white right answer for everyone on these issues. :rolleyes:

As soon as you have addressed EVERY aspect, a new one comes to light and we can continue. I find all of this fun and enlightening and thought everyone else would too. Why wouldn't everyone want to know everything about a subject such as this when it is so important to the health and well being of all of our YT babies and all of the dogs in this country?

Either or both.....the studies I have seen all support these cons as facts, not opinions.

But, Kim, what's happening here ISN"T free exchange of facts, ideas, sources, and opinions. What's happening here is several people freely exchanging their ideas, etc and one person refuting them. Free exchange of ideas, etc is when everyone listens to and respects other opinions expressed.

I DO appreciate the info on this thread. I don't appreciate the arguing.

No, we will never be able to "get to the bottom" of any issue I am sure. I am sure that people get tired of reading the same long post (not just yours) over and over again. This is my reason for the back and forth, question and answer going on here. Maybe if we once and for all look at all the aspects available, we can put it to rest...at least until the next fact/opinion/study/theory comes along? I have to ask though, for the sake of my sanity (and everyone else who may want to read) that we disscuss the pros/cons you have mentioned one at a time. It is much simpler that way and less confusing. There is no, "did we already mention this" and "this can be added to that." Otherwise, my head starts to hurt.
That being said, let's continue where we started: back at my post #108. I am awaiting your comments?

UUGGHH...you girls have fun-
btw Kim I am still waiting for your reply on the sticky thread:)
I do not remember saying it was you--FYI

this thread is too much for me...I am off..but enjoy your debate/discussions-