I agree. I thought this thread was over and done with a long time ago but then it gets bumped back up to the top.

Why doesn't everyone just agree to disagree and move on? No one is going to change other's minds. It's just a vicious circle that goes on and on and on.....and gets VERY OLD!

Same here. I'm off.

:rolleyes:

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!! Nobella, that pict is HILARIOUS!!!!! :D Poor horsey! :( :D

LMAO!! :D

Ya know Kimberley, I think you are right. Reality is, as much as I would LOVE for these issues to become concrete and be said and done once and for all, I seriously doubt this will ever be resolved and over with. :(
Kim~Sorry, but I could sit here and disprove your information all day, I am sure you could do the same with mine....feel free, but you'll have to do it without me because if for no other reason, I really don't have time for this. Besides that, every time I come up with a valid point-you argue that it is not so, it is a "fact." :( I think I would be better off to advise others to research and let them do it on their own. I can try to "teach" and "educate" others all day long, but I think I will save that for my own child...I see no children here and don't feel it is our place. I have done the research and come up with the decision I feel is best--that is satisfactory for me. I would advise you to do the same, but you are your own person. I think in the future, a simple, "You need to do extensive research, good and bad" will be the answers I give any who are asking. I'm going to follow the lead of the others here and declare this a dead horse and move on.
Thanks though...you have done a great deal to entertain me in this thread. If nothing else, it's been good for some laughs!

So basically there is no resolution to whether you should ESN or SN or just let your dog's be.... I thought we could make our own decisions to do what is right for your situation or your lines. We are only responsible for what we do individually, there is no reason giving yourself HBP and stressed out about someone's decision to ESN, or even SN. Where's the Love!!! Relax, Relate, Release!!!! At the end of the evening when we turn off our computers, put on our face cream and our flannel evening garments...WE are going to make our OWN Decision!!!!JMHO!!

LMAO that is so funny and appropriate!

LOLOLOLOLOL NOBELLA ...............THAT WAS PERFECT !

Poor Horse...here we are animal lovers and laughing about that picture :eek: - (shame on us) but this thread is something that needs to be put to rest.

There comes a time when it's not about education or helping others anymore but just someone looking for another battle of wits... and that really doesn't help anyone.

This thread is being debated by 4 people, time to say good night.

Scratch that....3 people...I resigned. ;)

:D :D :D :D

The study you cite merely states that there is no higher rate of incontinence in ESN dogs than in ones spayed at older ages, but it does not refute the proven fact that spayed females DO have a higher rate of incontinence than unspayed dogs. This fact has been proven over and over again and has never been refuted by any study that I have read or heard of.

The outward appearance of the genitalia is not what the study with regard to "Lack of Gender characteristics" was referring to, but rather it is the category entitled "Inflammation of the Penis, prepuce and vulva". In ESN puppies the external genitalia stops growing which sometimes can be a potential problem. There is a higher incidence of vulvar dermatitis in ESN females and in the males, the penis never extrudes which can be a problem if the vet ever needs to catheterize the dog.

I posted this before reading the posts after it including the post #126.

I want to thank you all for not turning this thread "nasty" and forcing it be closed as usually happens. This is a great sign of improvement for this board imo!! :) :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: to us all!!

From the link:

Urinary incontinence

Urinary incontinence, or the inability to control urination, may be observed in female dogs whether they are spayed or intact, and regardless of the age when spayed. Older, intact female dogs may experience incontinence naturally as a result of the decrease in circulating estrogen, which has an effect on the external urethral sphincter. In spayed dogs, incontinence may be seen soon after the surgery has been performed, years later or not at all. It bears repeating that there has been no indication that it occurs at a higher rate in animals spayed prepubertally.

Please reference the sections in bold. Sorry, I think YOU are the one that is mistaken. And again, this study is more recent than the one you have been using to prove this point. I believe you said it would be a proven fact until proven otherwise? Well, it has been.

Are we all reading the same thread, and seeing the same information???! :confused:

Prepubertally means prior to puberty which is what we are referring to when we discuss Early Spay Neuter, neuterin done before puberty.

I posted what the article says.....there is no higher rate of incontinence in ESN dogs than in ones spayed at older ages, but it does not refute the proven fact that spayed females DO have a higher rate of incontinence than unspayed dogs

While it is true that there is no higher incidence of incontinence in ESN dogs, there IS a higher incidence in neutered dogs as opposed to intact dogs.

The article I cited in Post #33 was written in April, 2000 and states clearly that "the incidence if estrogen-responsive urinary incontinance is increased among neutered female dogs.". Here is the link again.there is no higher rate of incontinence in ESN dogs than in ones spayed at older ages, but it does not refute the proven fact that spayed females DO have a higher rate of incontinence than unspayed dogs

It's been my experience that unspayed females having a lower rate of incontinence is not true. We've only had one female dog that wasn't spayed and she suffered from incontinence starting when she was about 6 years old. All our other female dogs were spayed and never had this problem and then all lived well over 10 (they were big dogs so 10 is a decent age).

OK...I was gonna leave this alone and after this I will (well maybe) ....but I am sitting here watching the dog whisperer...which I believe several members have said he is a great place to turn for dog knowledge....anyway-
He at 8:52 on his show said ----

"it is very important that we have to spay/neuter our dogs it is important to their well being"

a rather interesting statement from someone viewed as an expert.....I know several here have referenced him in the past....I wonder if he has any info on his website......

just an fyi....

Um...I know what it means....isn't this what we were talking about :confused:....I am thoroughly lost now. :confused: You said this article only refers to ESN?? Um, what are we supposed to be talking about then? :questione Honestly, I have read back through all of the posts and I thought this was what was in question...?

That's quite interesting...The Man who whispers to the doggies say you should spay/neuter. He can't be wrong???? :confused: Now?

Um...did this statement make a difference? I think that this would end in nothing more than what it is now and could take alot of time...which I don't have enough of as it is....besides, everybody has lost interest and is getting annoyed, so...who are we trying to prove this to?

The gravediggers burying that poor horse? :p