Ha...you know, this may NEVER happen again! :rolleyes:

Yes, the breeder who does s/n take the choice away. If you are looking for a pup, it is your right not to buy from the breeder just as it is the breeders choice to s/n as they feel it is best for the pups. If they don't want this, look elsewhere. :thumbup:

Off the subject, how the heck did we end up here? :confused:

I started the thread to learn about ESN and to help others learn as well. This has been accomplished and the fact that some breeders choose to use ESN in their program is something that pet buyers need to be aware of so they can make their decisions on what puppy to purchase.

It has been a natural progression of the thread topic and I think we did a good job of staying ON Topic except for the questions about Hefner's breeder? :)

I have to wonder, too. Unless someone wants to breed, why in the world they would not want to s/n their pets?? And even then, while it is not something any one of us has control over, not all breeders breed with a true understanding of the responsibilities that breeding entails. We can find proof of that in the abundance of shelters across the nation and the number of posts seen on this forum. Many people are completely jejune when it comes to the risks of breeding 'just so the kids can see the miracle' or 'my cousin wants a free pet'....

I thought we have all agreed that we would want what is best for the animals in our care. As much as we want to consider them a part of our family (and I do), they are still animals. As their caregivers we are responsible for doing what is best for them.

While I'm all for holistic and alternative health/pet care, and a practioner of both, I feel that this topic needs to be considered with a more realistic mindset. Surgery might not be the answer to everything, but vitamins, flower essences and essential oils aren't alway the answer either.

Of the many (always s/n) pets that I have owned in my life, I have never lost any of them for reasons other than natural causes or mercy euthanasia. Never a lost/tragic ending. All have lived a long healthy and comfortable life. I feel that should be considered responsible pet ownership.

As always the standard disclaimer: This is just my humble opinion and not directed at anyone in particular....

:thumbup: That again was natural progression, I guess. I really wasn't questioning her ethics or practices, please don't think that. :( I was just curious and I AM sorry if you feel I got to personal....I know that there have been times I've been ready to have your head on a platter when I thought you were too deep into mine... :rolleyes: Oops!

Hello all,

I asked my vet about early spay and neuter, hes pretty old school.........his personal belief and practice is 5-6 months at the earliest. I cant give you studies or web notes or addresses as to why. He simply said its better for the puppy in his opinion, letting their anatomy mature, their overall growth ( including hormones) then he will perform the surgery. I respect his opinion hes been my vet for many a year.
He did give me a long talk about spay and neuter contracts. He asked me to implement them.
I do believe a buyer should have a choice as to whether they breed their dog or not, but if you know from the get go the puppy is under contract not to breed, it is not an option to breed them at anytime.
Just do not buy from breeders with this contract. The no breeding clause is put in there for a reason.

Quotelovedorkyyorkies"I do believe a buyer should have a choice as to whether they breed their dog or not, but if you know from the get go the puppy is under contract not to breed, it is not an option to breed them at anytime.
Just do not buy from breeders with this contract. The no breeding clause is put in there for a reason."

I am not sure if I am reading this right, are you saying NOT to buy from a breeder with a s/n contract??
If I am buying a pet I wouldn't buy from anyone without one.
That to me is a sign of a GOOD breeder, one that cares about the welfare of their dogs and bloodlines. Just because a dog has papers does not mean he/she should reproduce. If I somehow read this post wrong I apologize and again if this goes off topic.

No I am not saying to not buy from a spay neuter breeder.
I am trying to say that if you do and agree to the terms, the dog is to be spayed or neutered, breeding was never agreed upon and isnt an option.

Thanks Kelly, for clearing that up. That one sentence caught me off guard:)

I agreed to never breed Ava or Chai but one of the reasons I felt as comfortable as I did with both their breeders is that they BOTH advised against spaying either of them due to their size and the risks of the surgery not outweighing the benefits. This to me shows that they truly cared about the dogs and not protecting their lines at all costs. :thumbup:

I believe that many of the breeders on here would be able to trust their customers in this respect as well. Most yorkie owners are extremely responsible and can do what it takes to "prevent accidents". It is not that hard. Certainly worth the effort to avoid the pain, risk and expense of this major surgery.

Kim, you missed my point on the thread where I posted two links regarding ESN and the top vet schools endorsing ESN and disputing many of the "why you should not spay/neuter" a dog and you picked the one thing "parvo in puppies" to endorse your theory. I am sorry I cannot agree with you at all about the typical pet owner who knows how to properly contain their Yorkie. Every week someone posts an "oops" on here and again we add to the pet over population. Just today a member wrote that her little girl is going through her first heat and asked if she should keep her male away from her. We can all guess what will happen there.

The question I have to ask is where is your social responsibility. How can anyone sleep at night knowing 5 MILLION dogs and cats are euthanized every year. I have been in the room with dogs piled high in garbage bins, DEAD because of the over population. This includes small dogs which will only get worse because of the popularity of small dogs. I really wish you would go to the pound day after day and see the results of people not neutering their animals and you would understand the passion I feel along with many people in rescue and yes most vets because they understand the real harm of not spaying and neutering and it is an early DEATH. Every reputable Yorkie rescue group that I know endorses spay and neuter because they love Yorkies and they love dogs. Even Dr. Pitcairn's believes in spaying and neutering your pet.
I felt the two threads I posted would show that many of the concerns you talked about were very slim compared to the bigger picture and in fact some of it disputed some of the facts you stated.
You know I never had children but I have always felt a social responsibility for all of the children of this country and in fact my taxes pay for many services for children. I believe we are all responsible to help each child and I don't complain about my taxes spent on them. I also believe as dog lovers we all have a responsibility to protect as many dogs as we can, be it through legislation or as simple as spaying and neutering our dogs.
While I can respect your position for your dogs, I cannot understand why you keep trying to push this on people who you don't know will be responsible pet owners. Were you aware of these statistics:
•Only 38% of all dogs and cats will remain in their first home for their entire lives.
•Nationally, over 50% of all adopted animals are no longer in their adoptive home after just the first year.
We have had YT members be part of these statistics so we cannot assume that every member on YT will be a "responsible dog owner" and protect their dogs from breeding again. You have scared many young members into believing they are doing the wrong thing by spaying/neutering their dogs.
You know I love my dogs as much as you do and maybe even more because of the rough start they had in life. I didn't buy them but earned their love through my rescue efforts. I took the throw away dogs and gave them a home, security and love but as someone who has compassion for the millions killed every year because of the pet overpopulation, you are darn right I spayed/neutered every rescue who came through. We have got to stop what is going on in this country as we are losing our souls.

Frankly I think that is a pretty naive way of looking at things. I don't think most breeders know all their buyers well enough to know whether they can be totally trusted or not. And not "all" yorkie owners are responsible people. Case in point the hundreds of puppymillers that have yorkies. I would think it would be virtually impossible to find out the true nature and intent of every person buying a dog, that is when that contract and limited registration comes into play. Of course there are now ways of getting around that too with all the new registries cropping up.

Yeah, you would think so, but sadly, this is not always the case. Accidents of all kinds can happen with even the most responsible owners. ANY kind of accident, not just pregnancy, but anything, the dog getting out of the house and getting lost/run over/stolen, injury from being stepped on, etc. I know one time I opened the door to put something on the porch and as I turned one way to come in, Trixie ran behind my back the other way and I left her outside. Now, she never left the porch and scratched in about 30 seconds to come in...but I didn't know she was out there! :eek: What if someone had stolen her, or worse, what if she'd gotten hit by a car--such a scary thought, Kim, I know you can vouch for that one. Or what if she'd been in heat and a local male walked up. Accidents can happen even w/ responsible owners...don't you agree? My point is, it may not always be in the best interest of the dog to let them go intact, even to a responsible owner because accidents of all kinds DO happen.

Im going to agree with both your breeders.
Not because I know either one or because its just what I think. Only because of the advice I was given by my own vet and a second opinion by another vet.
It was given because I asked about spaying due to the condition of an inguinal hernia on two girls, I thought since surgery would have to be performed on the lil girls..........why not spay them during the one surgery to prevent an additional surgery. Both the vets didnt want to spay the girls at 9 weeks, the other at 11 weeks.
If someone elses vet advises different Im not arguing with it, some views Im sure has to do with their own beliefs and comfort zone or studies they know.
My vet just wont perform early s/n, but he does encourage me to put a contract in place with a no breeding clause at the minimum that does not necessarily mean the pet has to be altered, (JUST NOT BRED)

:thumbup: I don't think any of us have the right to say who is and isn't a responsible pet owner...we can try, but we could never get it right. People with even the highest and best intentions can still have accidents, of ALL kinds. Did they mean for these things to happen? No, of course not, but sometimes they do anyway.
No to make an assumption on her behalf, please correct me if I have stated a falsehood, but I don't think Kim is neccessarily arguing this fact. I know that because of experiences she has had herself, she can presumably relate. (Again, correct me if I am wrong :) ) Sometimes things slip out of our hands and are beyond our control. :(

:eek: Sometimes with the very best of intentions, mistakes are made.
BELEIVE ME! I know :D
mistakes were made so we could learn from them......maybe the first time maybe the second........ :p .........maybe the third time........on and on
........Im still making them............Ill die making them.......Some people never learn...... :animal36

In my opinion that sounds irresponsible...

Cancer or an unexpected pregnancy less risky than a thoughtfully planned spay or neuter by a competent vet???? :confused: At any age!

As I read post after post of accidental breedings and breedings by irresponsible owners here on YT, I can't imagine a responsible breeder feeling that way!!

Perhaps you should tell your breeders about YT so they can see for themselves some of these unfortunate incidents and the associated pain, risk and expense.

Cindy~

Please know that I share and understand your passion about the poor animals that are rescued each year and those that are abused and not rescued, those sitting in shelters. :( I do not question your sense of social responsibility and would politely ask that you not question mine.

I spend countless hours at my local Humane Society and I donate time and money to anti puppymill and animal rights associations. I am a strong animal rights activist and have devoted many hours of pro bono legal work fighting for the rights of abused animals of all kinds. My 18 year old daughter is a vegan and won't even wear shoes with leather in them because she is so concerned about the treatment of ALL animals in our society. She got this way because of growing up being taught about the plight of animals in our country.

Are you as concerned about the treatment of farm animals (pigs who never see the light of day for example) or other animnals that we eat that are "farmed" everyday as you are about the dogs in our society? There is a lot of animal mistreatment and you would never question my sense of social responsibility if you knew me and my work in this regard. :confused:

I do not feel that the issue of dog over population gives us the right to hide the truth and leave out important risks when discussing the health of our beloved furbabies. I also do not feel that we should outlaw ALL breeding until the problem is under control. I think we have to exercise common sense and good judgment and educate people with the truth and not with social pressure and falsehoods.

There are many ways to combat pet over population but routine neutering w/o considering the risks and the needs of the individual dog is just wrong imo. The fact is that many people in our society do not value the health and lives of our dogs even 50% as much as they value human life. I am not saying that my dogs' health is as important as my family's but it comes very close. This is not the case with the average American citizen, the average vet or the top veterinary schools. Therefore, their evaluation of the risk vs benefit will naturally be different from mine and from anyone who cares as strongly as I do about my pets.

I place the risks on a higher value scale than they do. This is not wrong and I will not apologize or be made to feel guilty if I have helped educate the members here about the fact that there are two sides to the story and they can make the best decisions when they have all of the facts, not just the politically correct ones.

The fact and has always been that I am not opposed to neutering...I am opposed to vets and others who lie, misrepresent, and tell half truths about the risks and side effect of neutering in the name of their pocketbooks and/or the pet over population problem.

An actual admission.....we're making headway tonight.... :)

YT Therapy or True Confessions??? ;)

Just kidding Misty.. :) ..if I have ever asked personal questions of you it was related to your breeding program and philosophies, right?

I apologize if you felt my questions were too personal...I was not aware that you felt that way and I am sorry.

Wow was THIS long...I didn't bother reading the very long posts but I just want to say we see accidental breedings HERE all the time. I don't understand all this debate at ALL.

When peoples opinions are offered...it sure seems like they get questioned over and over on this site.

I personally didn't bother posting here because I didn't want to see anything I said turned into a debate ..I just don't have the energy for all that.

This thread had some good information and it got buried ....it seems that one person is controlling everything said here and I just don't understand why people can't just post their feelings and move on ....letting OTHERS express theirs without questioning every little thing. :(

sorry...I just had to say that because normally I enjoy hearing from people with experience in these subjects but I couldn't even locate their posts it got so off subject.

I have to agree with Villette.

I'm afraid your point is burried in all the other posts. Like Misty said, accidents happen all the time. As a breeder who puts her heart and soul in every little being I raise there is nothing you can do or say to change my mind. I will s/n all my puppies. As for those reading this post that maybe are unsure, this lengthy conversation is enough to make some end up just as confused when they started. Sometimes you have to let things go. Your point was made when you posted this thread. I personally can't read anymore because it's just too much, I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way.

This is kind of like my post about Biewers. I stated facts. I went off on my own little tangent..learn from my mistake..lololol..just drop it. :)

Kim~ I wouldn't classify it as an "admission," :rolleyes: I thought it would have been obvious all along...lol.

I agree.. way too long. when I see these, I usually read the first page, skip to the last, to see how off topic things have gotten,and then I miss anything in between that might have been good to know,, But since i saw it was 5+ pages, I avoid it... Make your point,,and state your opinion and let it go..
That's my point and my opinion and now I'm moving on..... ;) :wavey:

LOL...I SO agree :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Also, I want to note that I come to this section not because I want to breed, but because I find it facinating to hear from the breeders here. Particularly the ones with years and years of valuable experience and interesting stories to tell about their experiences.

I think we can all agree that you can find ANYTHING you're looking for on the Internet - from pictures of kittens in jars to the harms of using Swifters on you floors. :rolleyes: For me it's a no-brainer to trust someone I 'know' who has years of experience over a random biased quote from the Internet.

Please insert my standard disclaimer here. :p

Its very clear to me that early s/n has its benefits. I really respect the views on this.
I also understand owners not wanting to do it because its scarey for them to have their babies have the surgery whether early or later. They feel different about the whole thing.
Then theres the s/n contracts, its not a guarantee of no puppies because accidents do happen. I would like to think most people are responsible, I know its not always the case, but I think most people have the very best intentions in regards to their babies.
Im trying to say I see valid points to all your points, research, experience, reasons. This thread is really one to help me make good decisions on what I feel is right and Im sure it does for others too.
Sorry to lengthen this thread with one more post.........but all your posts and views are all valid to me and each and every one of them are respected.
You all love your dogs.

Kelly~

Thank you! :) You brought the thread back on topic this morning after so many off topic posts and I appreciate that greatly.

To answer you Villette and Irene, I keep posting BECAUSE I keep learning and some posters ask questions....I asked the breeders two questions and I think only one breeder responded so far. I hope this "discussion" continues. If some people do not feel it is worth their time to read it then that is their choice and they should leave the thread alone. Rhonda has chosen this alternative and I respect her for it. It is her choice. Sherry Lynn only wants to hear what breeders have to say and that is her choice too so she is free to just read breeder's posts. I respect that as well.

I am still researching this subject and just learned after all of these days from a member yesterday that there is an increased risk of parvo in an ESN puppy!! That is huge to me.


I really don't understand the need some members seem to have to take threads off topic with useless posts about whether it is too long or not a worthy issue or whatever!! No one should be able to control this board or even a thread except admin and the mods....we are all free to "move on" whenever we feel the need.

It seems to me that everyone who has posted something negative about this thread is someone who is in favor of ESN and always has been. It SOUNDS like they are simply uncomfortable with hearing that there are some negative pieces to the puzzle. That is unfortunate. :(

It is obviously of interest to people or it wouldn't have become so lengthy. I would respectfully ask that you not post anymore to this thread if you cannot stay on topic and talk about the pros and cons of ESN.

Thank you. :)

Kim, I was tired last night so forgive my passion but I am thrilled to read that you are not opposed to neutering. :thumbup:

You are right, I am also against anyone who lies, misrepresents, and tells half truths about anything. I would also agree with you that many vets are in the business for the $$$ but then many doctors are also and each of us must make the final decision on what is right for our animals and ourselves.

Sorry everyone but the following 2 comments are off thread but felt I needed to say them. I am not opposed to breeding if people do their research and do what is right for the dog and the breed and not jump into it.

Yes, since I was spayed at 32 years of age, I am now 56 (Hormonal Replacement Prempro-Pregnant Mare’s urine and what they consider by-product (foals) and my choice of not taking something to make me feel better while killing foals. I am fully aware of many issues of animals beyond dogs and am very active with financial support to these organizations and the legislation that needs to be changed to protect all animals on this planet.

Sorry everyone for being tired last night and changing the course of the thread. :( and also for adding one more comment.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Cindy~

No problem.....did you ever consider the bio identical hormones??? There are no animal products and compounding pharmacies put together your prescription with the help of your doctor. :thumbup:

I thought I would repost part of my post from #5 since this has been lengthy and I think Dr. Johnson's points were valid and skipped over by many. It also partially answers the question Sherry Lynn raised in post #63 "Why would anyone not want to s/n their dog?" There are a lot of reasons that this thread has pointed out.:In his quote Dr. Jonson was describing how a dog who is spayed prepubecently is different from a dog who is spayed after reaching puperty:

The difference: Well, the overall difference is a completely different dog in terms of bone mass, size, structure, relatively increased resistance to post-spay weight gain, and more complete psychological development which includes elements of loyalty, maternal-instinct-to-protect, feelings of territory and vigilance, etc.. Things that have not "occurred" to puppies at four to five months BUT which occur as an important part of a nesting (post-adolescent) instinct which dogs spayed young never get.

Does this concern anyone?

Also, the statistics show the majority of the problem with pet over population is in rural areas so should our view of ESN be different in suburban or city environments?

I couldn't agree more with this statement. :thumbup: I volunteer at an animal shelter and I've seen the horrors of pet over population. I've come home from the shelter MANY time and just sat on the floor in my bedroom and cried my eyes out because of poor innocent dogs being euthanized. It breaks my heart, it truly does. :(