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Old 10-09-2014, 04:29 PM   #1
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Default Female out of heat.

Hi-

I am new here, a new Yorkie owner, and a new girl dog owner. So please bare with me.

#1 I know I need to get her spayed and I have no problem doing so and fully intend on doing so. However, my vet would like to wait 6 to 8 weeks after because she is so small and her heat cycle just ended.

#2 I think my male Shichon got to her. Now I am not 100% sure. I didn't see them tie/lock. However, the entire back of her was wet. Her tail, her hair, her legs, etc... She is WAY smaller than he at 4lbs and he at 19lbs.

#3 I contacted a fertility clinic in my area (PA), which BTW I do not think is giving me good customer service. I would like her to have the mis-mate shot now before any fetus forms. This clinic is telling me A) I need to wait 25 days to have an ultrasound done to see if she is pregnant B) Then they will administer the series of shots for mis-mate.

#4 Now I realized she is acting different burrowing in clothes, "nesting", etc.. I got her while in heat the person I purchased her from had no idea she was in heat or did and neglected to mention it to me. However, she was in heat. I noticed she is no longer "flagging" him or curling the tail when he is near. Is she done?

Again please be nice when responding I'm a virgin at this female dog ownership and I am a responsible dog owner. Thank you in advance!

-Brad
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Old 10-09-2014, 05:34 PM   #2
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I am going to give you some links for more information on this subject. But if you went to the repro clinic at Univ of Penn, they are quite well respected.


Here is the first link:


Pregnancy Termination in Dogs and Cats


Pregnancy Termination in Dogs and Cats

Accidents happen, and a large number of pets become pregnant despite their owner's wishes. In most cases, the best solution to this problem is to have the bitch or queen spayed, which will not only solve the current problem, but prevent it from happening in the future. Ovariohysterectomy during pregnancy, unless very close to term, does not pose significantly elevated risks to the animal over and above the standard surgery.
There are several situations in which it is desirable to terminate a pregnancy, yet retain the animal's ability to reproduce in the future. Examples would include a valuable purebred breeding bitch that is accidently bred by an "undesirable" dog, or a estrous bitch that the owner may want to breed in the future that is found cavorting with a neighborhood dog in the backyard!
Before discussing treatments for pregnancy termination, one point should be made: Just because an bitch in estrus is found together with a male doesn't mean they have already mated. In fact, it seems to be the case that a majority of bitches presented to veterinarians for "mismating" treatment are not pregnant.
One fairly reliable method of determining whether mating has indeed occurred is to examine a vaginal smear within a few hours, even up to a day, after the alleged liason occurred. If the dog was bred, one can almost always find sperm on the smear without much difficulty. Not finding sperm does not rule out mating, but suggests that it may well not have taken place, which can influence how the bitch is treated.
Estrogen Treatment for Mismating

A variety of estrogens have previously been recommended and used as treatments for mismating. Two of the most popular formulations have been diethylstilbestrol and estradiol cypionate (ECP). Interestingly, there is very little objective data to support either the safety or efficacy of these drugs for treating mismating in dogs, and essentially none in cats.
The few controlled studies that have been conducted indicate that estrogen therapy in bitches is associated with a high risk of inducing uterine disease such as pyometra and some risk of causing a lethal aplastic anemia. Additionally, the dosages of estrogen and timing of treatment that appear to minimize risk of these disease are poorly effective in preventing pregnancy. The impression that estrogen treatment is efficacious may be largely be due to the fact, mentioned above, that many bitches presented for mismating treatment have not actually been bred.
In summary, there is little doubt that estrogen therapy for mismating in bitches is not only unsafe, but often ineffective in preventing pregnancy.
Termination of Pregnancy with Prostaglandin F2alpha

Prostaglandin F2alpha (PGF, Lutalyse(R), dinoprost tromethamine) is a hormone that induces luteolysis in many species, including dogs. Because progesterone is necessary throughout gestation for maintenance of pregnancy, PGF-induced death of the corpus luteum leads to termination of pregnancy. PGF also has the ability to stimulate uterine contractions, which may contribute to its abortifacient activity.
The canine corpus luteum is essentially unresponsive to PGF prior to diestrus day 5, then becomes progressively more susceptible to luteolysis through gestation. As a consequence, lower doses of PGF are required to induce abortion later in gestation.
PGF is administered twice daily, either for 4 days (less than 4 weeks of gestation) or until abortion is complete (after 4 weeks). In the later, case, the bitch should be monitored daily by palpation or ultrasound to evaluate whether abortion has taken place.
PGF treatment has a number of unpleasant side effects in dogs, including vomition, panting, cramps excessive salivation and defecation. These effects can be ameliorated to some extent by walking the animal immediately after treatment. Because of these adverse effects of PGF, treatment should be conducted in a veterinary clinic.
Two important precautions should be recognized with respect to use of PGF:
Women of childbearing age and people with asthma or other respiratory problems should use extreme caution in handling PGF solutions. This drug is readily absorbed through the skin and can cause uterine contractions and bronchospasm in exposed persons. This is another reason for conducting treatment of bitches in a clinic rather than by prescription.
PGF analogs such as cloprostenol are not approved for termination of canine pregnancy. They are very much more potent than PGF, and using an analog at the same dosage as PGF2alpha can be lethal.
PGF treatment is an effective treatment for termination of pregnancy in bitches. Properly administered, it is also safe and does not appear to have adverse effects on future reproductive performance of the bitch.
PGF can also be used to terminate pregnancy in cats, at least after day 33 of gestation.
Other Methods for Terminating Canine Pregnancy

Several other drugs have been investigated experimentally for terminating canine pregnancy, and while some show considerable promise, these treatments either are not currently available or cannot yet be recommended due to lack of data from clinical trials. Examples include:
Dopamine agonists: Prolactin is necessary to support function of the canine corpus luteum, and secretion is inhibited by dopamine. Drugs such as bromocryptine and cabergoline, which bind to dopamine receptors in the pituitary gland, suppress prolactin secretion and can terminate pregnancy in dogs by suppressing progesterone secretion from the corpus luteum.
Dopamine agonists are effective in terminating canine pregnancy only after about 25 days of gestation. Like PGF, they require repeated treatment and commonly induce vomition and inappetence.
Epostane: This drug inhibits steroid hormone synthesis by inhibiting the enzyme that converts pregnenolone to progesterone. It has been shown to terminate pregnancy in dogs after a 7 day treatment and appears to have this effect throughout gestation. Further, adverse side effects in dogs have not been been reported.
Mifepristone (RU486): This well-known drug acts as a progesterone antagonist. Small clinical trials have demonstrated that his drug is very effective in terminating canine pregnancy after 25-30 days of gestation, and without apparent adverse effects.
Clearly, several drugs appear to have promise as safe and effective abortifacients in dogs, and deserve additional research and marketing attention as aids for pet population control.
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/refs.gif References and Reviews
Bowen RA, Olson PN Behrendt MD et al. Efficacy and toxicity of estrogens commonly used to terminate canine pregnancy. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 186:783, 1985.
Concannon PW, Weinstein R, Whaley S, et al. Suppression of luteal function in dogs by luteinizing hormone antiserum and bromocryptine. J Reprod Fert 81:175, 1987.
Concannon PW, Yeager A, Frank D, et al. Termination of pregnancy and inductin of premature luteolysis by the antiprogestogen, mifepristone, in dogs. J Reprod Fert 88:99, 1990.
Feldman EC, Davidson AP, Nelson RW, et al. Prosaglandin induction of abortion in pregnant bitches after misalliance. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 202:1855, 1993.
Onelin K, Silva LDM, Donnay I, et al. Luteotrophic function of prolactin in dogs and the effects of a dopamine agonist, cabergoline. J Reprod Fert 47 (suppl):403, 1993.
Sankai T, Endo T, Kanayama K et al. Antiprogesterone compound, RU486, administration to terminate pregnancy in dogs and cats. J Vet Med Sci 53:1069, 1991.
Wichtel JJ, Whitacre MD, Yates DJ, et al. Comparison of the effects of PGF2a and bromocryptine in pregnant beagle bitches. Theriogenology 33:829, 1990
Next Link:
Ask questions when dog presents for mismate management
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Old 10-09-2014, 05:48 PM   #3
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First you did not mention how long you have had her. A female heat cycle typically lasts 21 days with the second week of heat being the most fertile time and when a female will come into standing heat - some females will flag, some will not to males, it just depends on the female.


So if she was in heat when you received her, count forward to todays date and given that it is past 21 days she is likely out of heat. Her vulva should have reduced, there should be no discharge, you can check by using a white tissue.


My understanding is that vets like to wait 6 wks after heat ends = 42 days so that the arteries and veins etc have reduced in size, and the risk of bleeding is reduced.


Now in terms of your female and your male dog, the fact that her back was wet and her legs could just be a sign of excessive licking, and or drooling of the male over her. Many males don't exactly have good aim and may be more enthusiastic rather than accurate. Successful mating with a maiden bitch and stud is not often too successful!


This is one reason the repro clinic wants to actually see if she is pregnant. If she isn't all well and good, you wait the 6-8 wks and have a normal spay. If she is then, you will need to make an informed decision to go with chemical abortion or surgical abortion/spay. The ultrasound as you would have read from the above links actually gives the specialist specific knowledge of how far along in the pregnancy, (if she is pregnant), she is.


I understand from your post that you are not a breeder, do not want a mixed breed litter and all the attendant risks of whelping and puppy rearing, not to mention finding good homes for the pups.


So well with your specialist your options that provides the least risk to your female.


Good luck with your decision!
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Last edited by gemy; 10-09-2014 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 10-09-2014, 06:52 PM   #4
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Hi Everyone-

I've only had her three weeks, tomorrow being the third week. She was in heat when I brought her home. I asked specifically to the lady "is she in heat/has she gone into heat yet?" she said no! I trusted that; however, when my partner and I got home and examined her fully we noticed discharge bloody. This all occurred Sept 19.

Now flash forward she is seems to be normal or what appears to be her normal self (no way of really knowing her real self until she has been here for awhile longer). Yes the back of her was totally wet. When mating do they typically "do that" (for lack of a better word) get all wet on the back/hind portions of the body? I do not want to take any chances she is just to small to even carry a pup from him and lord knows to small to bring it into the world.

Yes PENN VET Clinic is not far away. Should I also try them to see what they say? In everyone's opinion is it worth it to wait the 25 days or should I just proceed with the shots?

Any informed decision is a better decision.
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Old 10-09-2014, 07:02 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy View Post
I am going to give you some links for more information on this subject. But if you went to the repro clinic at Univ of Penn, they are quite well respected.


Here is the first link:


Pregnancy Termination in Dogs and Cats


Pregnancy Termination in Dogs and Cats

Accidents happen, and a large number of pets become pregnant despite their owner's wishes. In most cases, the best solution to this problem is to have the bitch or queen spayed, which will not only solve the current problem, but prevent it from happening in the future. Ovariohysterectomy during pregnancy, unless very close to term, does not pose significantly elevated risks to the animal over and above the standard surgery.
There are several situations in which it is desirable to terminate a pregnancy, yet retain the animal's ability to reproduce in the future. Examples would include a valuable purebred breeding bitch that is accidently bred by an "undesirable" dog, or a estrous bitch that the owner may want to breed in the future that is found cavorting with a neighborhood dog in the backyard!
Before discussing treatments for pregnancy termination, one point should be made: Just because an bitch in estrus is found together with a male doesn't mean they have already mated. In fact, it seems to be the case that a majority of bitches presented to veterinarians for "mismating" treatment are not pregnant.
One fairly reliable method of determining whether mating has indeed occurred is to examine a vaginal smear within a few hours, even up to a day, after the alleged liason occurred. If the dog was bred, one can almost always find sperm on the smear without much difficulty. Not finding sperm does not rule out mating, but suggests that it may well not have taken place, which can influence how the bitch is treated.
Estrogen Treatment for Mismating

A variety of estrogens have previously been recommended and used as treatments for mismating. Two of the most popular formulations have been diethylstilbestrol and estradiol cypionate (ECP). Interestingly, there is very little objective data to support either the safety or efficacy of these drugs for treating mismating in dogs, and essentially none in cats.
The few controlled studies that have been conducted indicate that estrogen therapy in bitches is associated with a high risk of inducing uterine disease such as pyometra and some risk of causing a lethal aplastic anemia. Additionally, the dosages of estrogen and timing of treatment that appear to minimize risk of these disease are poorly effective in preventing pregnancy. The impression that estrogen treatment is efficacious may be largely be due to the fact, mentioned above, that many bitches presented for mismating treatment have not actually been bred.
In summary, there is little doubt that estrogen therapy for mismating in bitches is not only unsafe, but often ineffective in preventing pregnancy.
Termination of Pregnancy with Prostaglandin F2alpha

Prostaglandin F2alpha (PGF, Lutalyse(R), dinoprost tromethamine) is a hormone that induces luteolysis in many species, including dogs. Because progesterone is necessary throughout gestation for maintenance of pregnancy, PGF-induced death of the corpus luteum leads to termination of pregnancy. PGF also has the ability to stimulate uterine contractions, which may contribute to its abortifacient activity.
The canine corpus luteum is essentially unresponsive to PGF prior to diestrus day 5, then becomes progressively more susceptible to luteolysis through gestation. As a consequence, lower doses of PGF are required to induce abortion later in gestation.
PGF is administered twice daily, either for 4 days (less than 4 weeks of gestation) or until abortion is complete (after 4 weeks). In the later, case, the bitch should be monitored daily by palpation or ultrasound to evaluate whether abortion has taken place.
PGF treatment has a number of unpleasant side effects in dogs, including vomition, panting, cramps excessive salivation and defecation. These effects can be ameliorated to some extent by walking the animal immediately after treatment. Because of these adverse effects of PGF, treatment should be conducted in a veterinary clinic.
Two important precautions should be recognized with respect to use of PGF:
Women of childbearing age and people with asthma or other respiratory problems should use extreme caution in handling PGF solutions. This drug is readily absorbed through the skin and can cause uterine contractions and bronchospasm in exposed persons. This is another reason for conducting treatment of bitches in a clinic rather than by prescription.
PGF analogs such as cloprostenol are not approved for termination of canine pregnancy. They are very much more potent than PGF, and using an analog at the same dosage as PGF2alpha can be lethal.
PGF treatment is an effective treatment for termination of pregnancy in bitches. Properly administered, it is also safe and does not appear to have adverse effects on future reproductive performance of the bitch.
PGF can also be used to terminate pregnancy in cats, at least after day 33 of gestation.
Other Methods for Terminating Canine Pregnancy

Several other drugs have been investigated experimentally for terminating canine pregnancy, and while some show considerable promise, these treatments either are not currently available or cannot yet be recommended due to lack of data from clinical trials. Examples include:
Dopamine agonists: Prolactin is necessary to support function of the canine corpus luteum, and secretion is inhibited by dopamine. Drugs such as bromocryptine and cabergoline, which bind to dopamine receptors in the pituitary gland, suppress prolactin secretion and can terminate pregnancy in dogs by suppressing progesterone secretion from the corpus luteum.
Dopamine agonists are effective in terminating canine pregnancy only after about 25 days of gestation. Like PGF, they require repeated treatment and commonly induce vomition and inappetence.
Epostane: This drug inhibits steroid hormone synthesis by inhibiting the enzyme that converts pregnenolone to progesterone. It has been shown to terminate pregnancy in dogs after a 7 day treatment and appears to have this effect throughout gestation. Further, adverse side effects in dogs have not been been reported.
Mifepristone (RU486): This well-known drug acts as a progesterone antagonist. Small clinical trials have demonstrated that his drug is very effective in terminating canine pregnancy after 25-30 days of gestation, and without apparent adverse effects.
Clearly, several drugs appear to have promise as safe and effective abortifacients in dogs, and deserve additional research and marketing attention as aids for pet population control.
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/refs.gif References and Reviews
Bowen RA, Olson PN Behrendt MD et al. Efficacy and toxicity of estrogens commonly used to terminate canine pregnancy. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 186:783, 1985.
Concannon PW, Weinstein R, Whaley S, et al. Suppression of luteal function in dogs by luteinizing hormone antiserum and bromocryptine. J Reprod Fert 81:175, 1987.
Concannon PW, Yeager A, Frank D, et al. Termination of pregnancy and inductin of premature luteolysis by the antiprogestogen, mifepristone, in dogs. J Reprod Fert 88:99, 1990.
Feldman EC, Davidson AP, Nelson RW, et al. Prosaglandin induction of abortion in pregnant bitches after misalliance. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 202:1855, 1993.
Onelin K, Silva LDM, Donnay I, et al. Luteotrophic function of prolactin in dogs and the effects of a dopamine agonist, cabergoline. J Reprod Fert 47 (suppl):403, 1993.
Sankai T, Endo T, Kanayama K et al. Antiprogesterone compound, RU486, administration to terminate pregnancy in dogs and cats. J Vet Med Sci 53:1069, 1991.
Wichtel JJ, Whitacre MD, Yates DJ, et al. Comparison of the effects of PGF2a and bromocryptine in pregnant beagle bitches. Theriogenology 33:829, 1990
Next Link:
Ask questions when dog presents for mismate management

Thanks you for those links they were very helpful in my reading. I do have options after we determine if anything happened. That makes me feel some what relieved.
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Old 10-10-2014, 02:46 PM   #6
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Thanks you for those links they were very helpful in my reading. I do have options after we determine if anything happened. That makes me feel some what relieved.

Good I am happy to hear that.
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Old 10-14-2014, 03:20 PM   #7
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Update:

The fertility clinic I contacted has yet to return my call. I guess I will have to go to Penn in Philly unless someone knows a place closer to my house (Berks Co).
In addition, I noticed her nipples have begun forming a circle like shape and have begun to protrude a bit. I also read online that they sometimes do that after the initial heat cycle and this is the female becoming a "woman". Is that true? Should I be majorly concerned about these protruding nipples? Are they starting to form milk, would milk be developing this early?
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Old 10-14-2014, 04:13 PM   #8
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So she is 26 days as of today...and the clinic you contacted said to do an ultrasound at day 25. I too don't like how they are treating you. Go to Univ of Penn with your records, and the timing etc.


Hopefully they are not too far away from you. Alternatively, I probably would give that fertility clinic an earful politely of course but firmly. I want her in now for her ultrasound and my treatment options discussed after a full exam etc!


The nipple change could or could not signify a pregnancy but usually happens later on later than 25 days or so. You can have something called a pseudo or false pregnancy.


Have the vets at this so called fertility clinic even examined her? You must not idle around, things need to happen soon for all involved.


Give the fertility clinic 12 more hours to call you back, then off to U of Penn you go.
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy View Post
So she is 26 days as of today...and the clinic you contacted said to do an ultrasound at day 25. I too don't like how they are treating you. Go to Univ of Penn with your records, and the timing etc.


Hopefully they are not too far away from you. Alternatively, I probably would give that fertility clinic an earful politely of course but firmly. I want her in now for her ultrasound and my treatment options discussed after a full exam etc!


The nipple change could or could not signify a pregnancy but usually happens later on later than 25 days or so. You can have something called a pseudo or false pregnancy.


Have the vets at this so called fertility clinic even examined her? You must not idle around, things need to happen soon for all involved.


Give the fertility clinic 12 more hours to call you back, then off to U of Penn you go.

She has not been examined yet because I was waiting for the fertility clinic to call me back. It has not been 25 days since "the incident" occurred it has only been about 14 days if that. I am so infuriated that they haven't called me back. I don't know if I can be polite at this point. The last time I called I spoke to the office manager and she was very nonchalant.
At this point I want to go to Penn anyway, at least I can visit my family members in the city after the appointment is over.

The false pregnancy thing has sorta got me thinking this is the case. But I want to be absolutely sure about it. I will call Penn tomorrow and get her in.
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
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She has not been examined yet because I was waiting for the fertility clinic to call me back. It has not been 25 days since "the incident" occurred it has only been about 14 days if that. I am so infuriated that they haven't called me back. I don't know if I can be polite at this point. The last time I called I spoke to the office manager and she was very nonchalant.
At this point I want to go to Penn anyway, at least I can visit my family members in the city after the appointment is over.

The false pregnancy thing has sorta got me thinking this is the case. But I want to be absolutely sure about it. I will call Penn tomorrow and get her in.


Your first post was on Oct 9th and I was mathematically challenged on the count. How-ever the breeder/home you got her from did not even know she was in heat, she could have been bred there, you have no way of knowing that of course.


I think it is a great idea to get her into Penn. Let us know how it goes.
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Old 10-17-2014, 06:42 AM   #11
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Just popping in to see if u were able to get her into the clinic?
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:35 AM   #12
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Any update Sadies Dad?
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