pregnant

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by lisaly

You are right that opinions are posted about breeders here. However, they are just that--opinions. Although there may be things like the under five pound guideline that we may not like, we don't really know by one thing whether someone is a good breeder or not. You are making assumptions about Dawn's sister who we don't know anything about. Dawn is right that how big a female's pelvic region is and the genes behind her are also important factors. I think it would be difficult for most of us if someone we love and believe in is being put down.

I'm not telling you how to post. You have every right to post your opinion, but my opinion is that I'd like to have more facts before we say someone is not reputable.

YorkieTalk is really a very loving community, one whose membership will really rally around someone in need. Dawn, I hope you stick around to see that for yourself.

In my opinion breeding females under 5 pounds and using the word teacup makes someone not reputable in my book but that is my opinion. I get to have one like everyone else. I also think using tags on your site that makes sure when people search teacups your site pops up not something reputable breeders do.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by nanahas3

Honestly I looked for her breeding stock and I don't see that she says her breeders are under 5 lbs like I said maybe just not seeing it. The ones I see under 5lbs say retired and I am assuming from showing (which she says she has done) maybe I am wrong.

There are several that do not say retired and are under five pounds....

[nanahas3]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

There are several that do not say retired and are under five pounds....

Taylor they do not say they are breeders though. And her website explains what people call teacups that is why the header on google comes up that way.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by nanahas3

Taylor they do not say they are breeders though. And her website explains what people call teacups that is why the header on google comes up that way.

Even dawn said she breeds under 5 pounds because she tried to make excuses for it.

[Lovetodream88]

If the teacup thing is some how added by google I am sorry for the teacup part and I do strongly suggest Dawn talk to her sister about it and possibly contact google to change it because it's a red flag to me and most of the people who come here we tell using the word teacup is a red flag so it might cause others to think it's a red flag also. I did not know google could do that. Again for the teacup thing if it is a google mess up I am sorry. When I go straight to the we address though it still says tiny teacup yorkies.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Dawn Arnold

She is referring to tinies she did state the AKC standard does not refer to yorkies as teacup or tinies but as up to 7 lbs. I can tell you she breeds them only if 4 lbs not smaller and it depends on your lines and if you know whats behind them. Also depends on the pelvic area not just the weight. She has never had a c/section. Also her friend who has all show yorkies and champions is the person that taught her. I don't know anything about Yorkie breeding but I can tell you I had many more C/sections in dachshunds. Not always tinys either its just something that seems to be more common in dachshunds than some breeds.
In my c/sections I rarely last a puppy and never a mother. I was right there with them and knew when to head to the vet.

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

Even dawn said she breeds under 5 pounds because she tried to make excuses for it.

Here is her post as quoted above. Pelvic ring is absolutely key for free whelping. That is not an excuse but a fact. Another fact not having a C section with multiple litters over the years is a rather positive fact for this breeder and this breed. Of course IMO.

What is behind the lines is another important consideration, not an excuse. How her mother grandmother and great grandmother were as breeders is important. What size of pups they threw(the mother controls the size of the puppies), number in the litter(s), uterine wall elasticity and health and her being in prime physical shape to handles the rigors of the labour. There is a whole darn more to deciding to breed a female than physical traits, testing, temperament and such. Key is will she be a "good mother" to the puppies. Some females just should never have puppies, and we try are darn best to understand if this lass is one prior to breeding her. Of course IMO.

A brief perusal of the Ytca's Code of Ethics and Conduct does not mention any restriction on breeding females under 5lbs. I found that one interesting.

You gals know all about this Internet searching, tagging what-ever thing, this thread is not to be a review of a breeder which is not the OP but oh my gosh an OP that has not yet come back to post again.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by gemy

Here is her post as quoted above. Pelvic ring is absolutely key for free whelping. That is not an excuse but a fact. Another fact not having a C section with multiple litters over the years is a rather positive fact for this breeder and this breed. Of course IMO.

What is behind the lines is another important consideration, not an excuse. How her mother grandmother and great grandmother were as breeders is important. What size of pups they threw(the mother controls the size of the puppies), number in the litter(s), uterine wall elasticity and health and her being in prime physical shape to handles the rigors of the labour. There is a whole darn more to deciding to breed a female than physical traits, testing, temperament and such. Key is will she be a "good mother" to the puppies. Some females just should never have puppies, and we try are darn best to understand if this lass is one prior to breeding her. Of course IMO.

A brief perusal of the Ytca's Code of Ethics and Conduct does not mention any restriction on breeding females under 5lbs. I found that one interesting.

You gals know all about this Internet searching, tagging what-ever thing, this thread is not to be a review of a breeder which is not the OP but oh my gosh an OP that has not yet come back to post again.

Excuses was not the word I meant. Like I said it was my opinion that a reputable breeder does not breed under 5 pounds and that was come to for several reasons. I of course know so much more goes into breeding then size. I also know you can't just take people's word for things like whether there dogs never needed c-scetions unless you really really know the person. I don't think I really understand the whole whats coming up when you type in the web address thing either. I do know I have entered the web address from safari, fire fox, and google chrome and it still says tiny teacups at the top so its not a google thing. I did apologize if the teacup thing is wrong but something seems off with that. I am pretty sure its something you type in when making the site but I am not sure.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by gemy

Here is her post as quoted above. Pelvic ring is absolutely key for free whelping. That is not an excuse but a fact. Another fact not having a C section with multiple litters over the years is a rather positive fact for this breeder and this breed. Of course IMO.

What is behind the lines is another important consideration, not an excuse. How her mother grandmother and great grandmother were as breeders is important. What size of pups they threw(the mother controls the size of the puppies), number in the litter(s), uterine wall elasticity and health and her being in prime physical shape to handles the rigors of the labour. There is a whole darn more to deciding to breed a female than physical traits, testing, temperament and such. Key is will she be a "good mother" to the puppies. Some females just should never have puppies, and we try are darn best to understand if this lass is one prior to breeding her. Of course IMO.

A brief perusal of the Ytca's Code of Ethics and Conduct does not mention any restriction on breeding females under 5lbs. I found that one interesting.

You gals know all about this Internet searching, tagging what-ever thing, this thread is not to be a review of a breeder which is not the OP but oh my gosh an OP that has not yet come back to post again.

The do say that females under 5 pounds are considered by most breeders to be unsuitable for breeding.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Dawn Arnold

Boy Lovetodream88 you are so full of knowledge and seems to really know everything. Who are these breeders you spoke to care to share names? You must be a very experienced yorkie breeder and its great you know all about yorkie breeders and how much they make. For your info my sister does not charge based in weight. As I stated she mentions that so people wanting normal tiny yorkies as pets understand.
I know about breeders and that they are not going to tell you how much they make with their dogs if they clear a profit. So you go by what you say somebody told you and I will go by my long experience and my sisters

Cough Cough. Well I did post somewhere on here about the start up costs to take one female and one male to Show Championship and the costs of screening tests, handling, grooming, feeding, average forecasted litter size by average breeding life expectancy x average selling price, by vet costs, by training costs, by health warranty costs(that is a real health warranty) etc, etc etc.

The point was and is a very small hobby breeder, and how did that term get to be a "dirty name", rarely if ever breaks even. In fact the sad mathematical truth is we can't, particularly if we want to advance the breed with a limited number of dogs.

Most breeders I know don't keep separate bank accounts and accounting systems to add up all their costs. We kind of just close our eyes and go well its got to be done/spent yada yada.

To me what seems a sensible reality is if the breeder is living on the proceeds of their breeding then de facto they must be making some profit. And I am not saying that is wrong per say. But But But, in my mind, it is a slippery slope. Do you take that FLA vacation, or spend that $3000 on upgrading your kennel, or buying that next show prospect to open up the lines, taking the plunge and doing certain genetic tests that have just become available?

Oh yes just read an interesting article I will post it in the Breeders Forum, would love your comments when you have the chance to read it

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by lisaly

You are right that opinions are posted about breeders here. However, they are just that--opinions. Although there may be things like the under five pound guideline that we may not like, we don't really know by one thing whether someone is a good breeder or not. You are making assumptions about Dawn's sister who we don't know anything about. Dawn is right that how big a female's pelvic region is and the genes behind her are also important factors. I think it would be difficult for most of us if someone we love and believe in is being put down.

I'm not telling you how to post. You have every right to post your opinion, but my opinion is that I'd like to have more facts before we say someone is not reputable.

YorkieTalk is really a very loving community, one whose membership will really rally around someone in need. Dawn, I hope you stick around to see that for yourself.

Lisaly I rarely disagree with you but exactly how big can a 3.5lb pup's pelvic region be? Breeding 3.5lb. pups WAYYYYY BADDDDD....wayyyyyyyyy baddd......


Bringing up Christian and toting the bible doesn't make it right. Sorry.


I'm a Christian, I do things that aren't exactly right either....but I don't say I'm a Christian so that makes it ok....


In my very Christian voice I say DON'T BRING GOD IN TO BREEDING....cuz I'm thinking its not quite the thing to do.....But I'll pray for that 3.5lb. pup.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

The do say that females under 5 pounds are considered by most breeders to be unsuitable for breeding.

Can you link it for me? Thanks

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by gemy

Can you link it for me? Thanks

It is mentioned in here http://www.theyorkshireterrierclubof...1335Teacup.pdf not really into detail though.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by lynzy420

Lisaly I rarely disagree with you but exactly how big can a 3.5lb pup's pelvic region be? Breeding 3.5lb. pups WAYYYYY BADDDDD....wayyyyyyyyy baddd......


Bringing up Christian and toting the bible doesn't make it right. Sorry.


I'm a Christian, I do things that aren't exactly right either....but I don't say I'm a Christian so that makes it ok....


In my very Christian voice I say DON'T BRING GOD IN TO BREEDING....cuz I'm thinking its not quite the thing to do.....But I'll pray for that 3.5lb. pup.

Well I know a 4lb female has three fingers width from inner groin to inner groin And BTW that is a very decent size measurement.

In terms of religion and breeding, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

I can call myself a spiritual person, but because I use imagery and love, and certain Eastern techniques to ease my dogs in pain, doesn't make me a better breeder.

A fairly old saying is: Don't Talk the Walk, Walk the Walk.

[bjh]

Breeding size is just one consideration when breeding yorkies. Like Gail said, you cannot just go by how much the female weighs. Structure is very important. I know reputable breeders/exhibitors that do breed females in the 4 to five lb range. Any female regardless of size can have difficulty whelping. The smaller ones are just more likely to have problems. My personal preference is to breed females in the 6 to 8 lb range.

[lynzy420]

I found this on Yahoo! LOVE it...for obvious reasons....


"The recommended weight is 5 pounds. I breed a 4 1/2 pound with no problems, but would never attempt to breed a 3 1/2 pound and I've been breeding Yorkies for over 20 years. Those that breed 3 pounders are in it for the money. They are willing to risk losing the dog because the puppies can bring a high price. Most likely, she will need a C-section which will be at least $1,000 and maybe more at an emergency clinic. If you are going to breed her, make sure you are prepared for the grief of losing her and/or the puppies. I really find it hard to believe that a vet would encourage breeding of such a small dog. The mate (and his lineage) should always be smaller than the female. YorkieTalk.com - Yorkshire Terrier Community is a very informative site just for Yorkie owners. It is full of stories of dogs and/or puppies dying during whelping.

I have been around long enough to unequivocally say I will NEVER EVER agree with any breeder, breeding a 3lb. 3.5lb. dog...Absolutely zero good reason to do so, and a million reasons NOT to.