Opinions on Breeder Types

[yorkiemom1970]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

A show breeder can have a substantial bill to finish a dog. If you have more then one out at a time you are talking a sizeable chunck of change. Buster is entered in 3 shows this month- being owner handled. The fees for the 3 shows was close to $80.00. Add in parking, gas, food, supplies and going back and forth for the three days ( and this is for local shows) and you have over $125.00 for the weekend. This is a bargain weekend.

The further the shows add more expenses in for hotels, more gas more food, wear and tear on your car and possibly handler fees. Try doing this several times a month. The average person has a hard time with the expense.

Do some make money well it may look like it- but when you turn around and reinvest it bak into your dogs you have not. If you were lucky the profits helped to pay for this addicting and expensive hobby.

Am I tickled when I place a puppy- yep I sit and figure what I can do with this- how many shows will this pay for and plan my schedule for Peggy ( handler) May sit and think I really like a certain dog and would love to have a puppy from this breeding. Pay stud fees that range from $500.00 to $1,500.00 and not get a puppy. In some instances can not get a rebreeding and have flushed that investment down the toilet.

Thanks for explaining that Kathy. My view on it came from 2 show breeders who live in my town. One shows shi-tzus, one shows papillions. They are both members of the forsyth kennel club. They've told me so many things about the "show world" from their perspective. Both of them stated that they do make money off the sale of their pet quality pups and sometimes even on "show potentials". They informed me about the cost of showing. They broke down their entry fees, grooming, hotel, food, you name it. But in the end, they both stated to me that they do come out to the better when they sell their litters. Please notice in my post that I did say "majority". I did not say "all". I also never said that I saw anything wrong with it. IMO any ethical breeder show or not, should make something for their hard work. Puppies aren't produced for free to breeders and they must be compensated.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by yorkiemom1970

Thanks for explaining that Kathy. My view on it came from 2 show breeders who live in my town. One shows shi-tzus, one shows papillions. They are both members of the forsyth kennel club. They've told me so many things about the "show world" from their perspective. Both of them stated that they do make money off the sale of their pet quality pups and sometimes even on "show potentials". They informed me about the cost of showing. They broke down their entry fees, grooming, hotel, food, you name it. But in the end, they both stated to me that they do come out to the better when they sell their litters. Please notice in my post that I did say "majority". I did not say "all". I also never said that I saw anything wrong with it. IMO any ethical breeder show or not, should make something for their hard work. Puppies aren't produced for free to breeders and they must be compensated.

I totally agree and always assumed that all breeders made a profit until I joined YT...why take the risk with your female if you didn't....but there seems to be such a negative attitude about making money off of the lives of dogs that so many people on here claim that the GOOD breeders don't make money. I have never met a breeder who was in it "just for the money" but I have heard that there are a lot of them "out there". It would take a pretty sad human being not to consider the welfare and innocense of these samll creatures but I have seen the awful puppymill pictures just like everyone else.

I also wanted to say too that I don't think "HOBBY" implies that you don't make any profit from it, I think it simply inplies that it is not ypour main source of income. I think there are a lot of hobbies where you can make a profit and it is still a hobby. The definition I found for "HOBBY" is as follows:

An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.

I don't think that precludes making money at it, but I could be wrong.

[yorkiegal719]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I call myself a Yorkie Fanicer, who breeds/shows. The word fanicer can mean connoissour, which means some degree of expertise in the arts etc..Breeding, is an art. IMO.

Commerical breeders and Puppy mill can be interchangable. Mass production of pups is a mill..commerical breeders mass produce. Most puppymillers have a commerical license or they can not sell to brokers who place the pups in pet shops. There are dirty commerical breeders and clean puppy mills.

The term most show breeders use for non-show breeders is a backyard or pet breeder..I do not agree.

If you do not breed for a living or too show, then you breed for pure enjoyment and it is your hobby.
I like the term Hobby breeder and use it for those who do not show, but are very reputable and ethcial. It is a good term to me.

I have changed my title..I am a Yorkie fancier, who breeds and shows as a pleasurable hobby. LOL

What a good answer Pat! I think that a while back there was some discussion similar to this about being a "hobby" breeder. There was a lot of negative feedback for that title. A lot of people stated that raising Yorkies /dogs shouldn't be a "hobby" it's a life style. So I think that what you call yourself covers everything, it shows that your concerned about the over all welfare of the breed...

[crystalsmom]

Originally Posted by yorkiegal719

What a good answer Pat! I think that a while back there was some discussion similar to this about being a "hobby" breeder. There was a lot of negative feedback for that title. A lot of people stated that raising Yorkies /dogs shouldn't be a "hobby" it's a life style. So I think that what you call yourself covers everything, it shows that your concerned about the over all welfare of the breed...

If I'm correct aren't most members of the Yorkshire Terrier Clubl of America
Hobby Breeders??? I agree Pat always give such good answers.

[yorkiemom1970]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I totally agree and always assumed that all breeders made a profit until I joined YT...why take the risk with your female if you didn't....but there seems to be such a negative attitude about making money off of the lives of dogs that so many people on here claim that the GOOD breeders don't make money. I have never met a breeder who was in it "just for the money" but I have heard that there are a lot of them "out there". It would take a pretty sad human being not to consider the welfare and innocense of these samll creatures but I have seen the awful puppymill pictures just like everyone else.

I also wanted to say too that I don't think "HOBBY" implies that you don't make any profit from it, I think it simply inplies that it is not ypour main source of income. I think there are a lot of hobbies where you can make a profit and it is still a hobby. The definition I found for "HOBBY" is as follows:

An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.

I don't think that precludes making money at it, but I could be wrong.

There are people who make money from their hobby. I'll use my husband as an example. He is a drag racer. It is something he enjoys doing. He has also made money at it due to being really good at his hobby. But come Monday, he's back at his job. If he didn't make any money doing his hobby, he wouldn't be able to continue with his hobby. He must keep his car up. He has entry fees to pay to enter into the races. He must buy fuel. He must eat while racing. I compare these things to the hobby dog breeders. They must buy food for their dogs. They must pay for vet care. They must keep their dogs in tip top shape. They buy beds, toys, treats. They buy cleaning supplies. The list can go on and on. But you get the idea.

[shelbysmom]

Originally Posted by yorkiemom1970

There are people who make money from their hobby. I'll use my husband as an example. He is a drag racer. It is something he enjoys doing. He has also made money at it due to being really good at his hobby. But come Monday, he's back at his job. If he didn't make any money doing his hobby, he wouldn't be able to continue with his hobby. He must keep his car up. He has entry fees to pay to enter into the races. He must buy fuel. He must eat while racing. I compare these things to the hobby dog breeders. They must buy food for their dogs. They must pay for vet care. They must keep their dogs in tip top shape. They buy beds, toys, treats. They buy cleaning supplies. The list can go on and on. But you get the idea.

I agree.

and it's the same for breeders. the "motive" is not to make income, it is for the joy of the sport. making a profit which one usually tucks away for future costs does not change it from being a hobby.

(racing so much that it becomes his only or main way of providing income would change the status.)

People that breed soooo much that they have a true income move from being hobby breeders to some degree of commercial breeding. They are doing it for the money, not for the joy and not for the learning.

That chart breaks things down pretty clearly by "motive" but I think some of the columns might be more fluid. Not all commerical breeders are the same, some probably have more characteristics of a puppy mill and some have more characteristics of the mentality of hobby breeders.

I am not judging anyone who makes a profit and I feel a profit that supports a hobby is not what we are talking about. High profit and mass producing is an occupation. Not saying it's right or wrong, it just is what it is.

[YorkieRini]

Sometimes it needs to be clarified. Do you make money or an income? WHEN I make money on my Yorkie litters it goes right back into my breeding program. Like Robbie said, the list is endless, what about books for breeding, videos, show supplies..let me tell ya. I just bought 3 different types of rubber bands ranging from $10-$15 a bag. Uh..hello that's NUTS! But a necessity. Show supplies are EXPENSIVE! I think it matters what you spend the money on. And the obvious is when you buy litters of puppies and resell them for double or triple the money..that is just plain WRONG!!

[YorkieShadow]

Originally Posted by feminvstr

method of making a living and aspired to become a professional breeder

Backyard Breeders -

Definition
These are the folks that will breed their favorite pet dog for any number of reasons:

They want the children to witness the miracle of birth.

They want Muffy to have just one litter before they spay her, so that she won't miss out on motherhood.

They want to make a little extra money for Christmas.


There are probably a hundred other reasons that these folks will breed their pets. They do not do much in the way of genetic testing, most of the time not even being aware that any test should be done. They will usually use the closest dog around for breeding, not really checking out pedigrees or temperament of the stud dog and whether or not he will contribute anything to this breeding.

The backyard breeder will usually keep the bitch in the house, in an area that is clean. Sometimes they will keep the puppies in the house for awhile after birth, but often they are relegated to the backyard (thus the term Backyard Breeder) or the garage as soon as the breeders have to start cleaning up after them. The children and adults playing with them may socialize the puppies to some extent. The mother of the litter is usually left with the puppies, so she has some chance to teach them some manners. These puppies are often sold at 6-7 weeks. Although this is a better time, it can be too early for some breeds.

Cost

This will usually be a reasonable price, especially if the dog you are buying is a popular breed that is readily available. They will keep the price low to be competitive so that they can move all the puppies. Some will even give them away, depending on why the breeding took place to begin with. Although the potential for high vet bills later in life is still there, it can be a less likely potential than from the above listed sources.

Hobby Breeders -

Definition
Hobby Breeders are those that breed for the love of the dog, giving no thought whatever to profit. Although they are often involved with dog sports of some kind, this is not always the case. However, the hobby breeder does study pedigrees, looking for a dog that will add something to the offspring of the litter. They know the breed standard and select the stud and bitch with an eye towards physical correctness, sound bodies, genetic health and the ability to perform the task for which the breed was originally created.

The hobby breeder will study which genetic problems are prevalent in their breed and test accordingly, often at great cost. They guarantee the health of the dogs in many cases, and sell dogs on a contract. If they determine that the puppies are not of breeding quality, they will require that the puppy be spayed or neutered at the appropriate time. They often will place them on limited registration, meaning that any offspring will not be able to be registered with the American Kennel Club (for more information on registration, visit The AKC Rules and Guidelines for Registration.

Hobby breeders will usually not let puppies go home before the age of 7-12 weeks, depending on the breed and they do much to make sure they are properly socialized. Many will do temperament testing on the puppies matching the right puppy with the right buyer. They will expose the puppies to strange noises, sights and smells. The mother of the litter is left with the puppies to teach them proper manners and friends and family are brought in for the express purpose of socializing the litter with people.

Shot records are kept and family histories (complete with pictures) and other good advice, are sent home with each and every puppy. Some puppies even have a good foundation on crate training and housebreaking when they go to their new homes.

Hobby breeders will question potential buyers, often asking for references and doing background checks. Some folks have said it can be harder to buy a puppy from some breeders than to adopt a child. They encourage you to ask questions and welcome you to their home to see how the puppies are being raised and how the adult dogs they have react with strangers and children.


When a hobby breeder plans a litter, it is usually to have something new to compete with, be it breed competition, obedience or agility, or any number of other events. Their only other goal is to ensure that the puppies they place are in a home for life. Responsible breeders will insist that you bring a puppy back to them, if you are unable to keep it - for any reason, during any stage of its life. They will encourage you to call with any problems, no matter how small or trivial they may seem. They are there to help - for the life of the puppy.

Cost

For buying direct - this will be the most "up front" cost. However, for this cost, you are getting a puppy that is guaranteed healthy, whose parents were tested for genetic problems and has been socialized a great deal. The potential for high vet bills in the future is the lowest from this source.

I dont agree with this......
Backyard Breeders definition
I dont consider my self a backyard breeder. And I plan to maybe breed my female once or twice. and I will keep a puppy and then sell the others , The money from the other puppies will go towards any vet bills. So I dont agree that a BYB is some one that does this. Because I care for my Dogs .

[fl24019]

Originally Posted by YorkieShadow

I dont agree with this......
Backyard Breeders definition
I dont consider my self a backyard breeder. And I plan to maybe breed my female once or twice. and I will keep a puppy and then sell the others , The money from the other puppies will go towards any vet bills. So I dont agree that a BYB is some one that does this. Because I care for my Dogs .

I agree with you.

These labels are a waste of time. There are good and bad breeders and everything in between in most of these categories.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by fl24019

I agree with you.

These labels are a waste of time. There are good and bad breeders and everything in between in most of these categories.

This is true....every category has good and bad...even the puppymill one imo.

[yorkiemom1970]

Originally Posted by fl24019

I agree with you.

These labels are a waste of time. There are good and bad breeders and everything in between in most of these categories.

That's kind of what I was trying to say on my first post regarding this. That we all know what is what when it comes to this. Some of the labels are not realistic.

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by yorkiemom1970

That's kind of what I was trying to say on my first post regarding this. That we all know what is what when it comes to this. Some of the labels are not realistic.

Definitely not black and white, I'm sure there are some gray areas. IMO the lables should be used only as a guide for people new to searching for a puppy.

By the way, I wanted to emphasize that I am not judging or criticizing anyone that may make income from their puppies. I was only talking about what I do with my breeding program.

[yorkiemom1970]

Originally Posted by YorkieRini

Definitely not black and white, I'm sure there are some gray areas. IMO the lables should be used only as a guide for people new to searching for a puppy.

I agree. Thanks!

[sabrinasmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieRini

I am curious to know how you would define the following types of breeders. These are all terms I have persoanlly heard of. If I missed any, feel free to add it to the list and a description.

Backyard Breeder: Someone that knows NOTHING about the history, standard or reproduction. He/She just sells to anyone and doesn't educate the new owners.

Hobby Breeder: I really don't have an opinion on this. I don't use the term anymore.

Professional Breeder: Someone that is well versed in all aspects of the breed (History, standard, reproduction). They know their lines and make thought out decisons as to why to mate a pair. I would say the majority would show as a way to measure their breeding program.

Commercial Breeder: Someone that is knowledgeable in reproduction. Has a large breeding facilty with all the amentities to keep their dogs comfortable. Some may be well versed in all aspects of the breed but are not.

Puppymill: A large facilty that breeds dogs for profit. Nothing else matters. Kennel conditions are filthy and unkept. Most of the time puppies are sold to pet stores.

I am sure there are other opinions, some may not agree with mine. Let's just keep this civil. Neither of us are right or wrong. These are just opinions, nothing more!

Thanks.

Best definitions I've seen, by far. I appreciate that you separated out the puppy mills from the professional breeder. There IS a difference. I've seen both.

Healthy, happy, well taken care of furbabies. That is what counts on all levels.

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a national veterinary association and it did something like force people to get health certificates for their animals before selling them?

I'm just thinking - vets are the easiest place in any community. AKC, USDA, ACA whatever doesn't seem to get around much.