C-sections
 

Depending on the bitch, but I have had 2 sections and then spayed. I do not make these decisions with out the consult of my vet ** repro specialist**. I do NOT schedule c-sections, free whelp is prefered of course. Some have free whelped some have not. Also, sections should be done once labor has begun, NEVER BEFORE!! Otherwise you are looking at the posibility of the uterus rupturing.

When I've had sections it's because the bitch was in hard labor for more than 45 min and no sign of the 'bubble' and when doing an internal check the pups head is just at the finger tip not close to being on it's way out. We don't do sections just because...
Sections are done for more reasons other than the mom being a 'tiny' or too small to whelp on her own. Just wanted to through that out there.

Sections are controversial on here I can feel it..lol. Although I prefer free whelping. I am not opposed to having a section instead of literally pulling pups out to avoid the surgery.

I don't consider having to reach yoru hand in and pull pups out free whelping. Free whelping IMO is pups are guided on the way not, never pulled. But others may not agree.

Also, if I have to chose between having a puppy pulled out (literally) or a section, I would go for the section in a heart beat! I had a bitch that had a litter of 4 pups pulled out of her and it was the worst experience I have ever witnessed, she had no anesthetic to dull the pain, she was black and blue and swollen for weeks afterwards. That was cruel IMO.

Studies that my vet has done prove that sections (done by experienced vets) result in more live births and less risks of losing the bitch (of course timing is a biggie as well).

Great article on sections..
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/whelpingcsection.htm

Oh, and I did not have her spayed at the same time she had a section. I've only heard of that being done on an emergency. Not sure if they do it via request.

question...a friend has gone through a c-section for one of her yorkies and is planning on breeding her again. How many heats should she sit out before she is bred again? Will she be able to free whelp after having one c-section done or will she more likely have to have a section done again?

I don't know much about breeding but that does sound extremely painful! I agree with you. :thumbup:

That's a good question, she may want to ask her vet about breeding again. I have bred a bitch a 2nd time after a section. She absorbed pups. Then my other bitch had pups pulled out the first time, 2nd litter she free whelped 2 pups and the third was big, so a section was done, her 3rd litter she had 5 pups, the first pup was not position correctly, we did a section.

I will ask my vet his findings on free whelp after sections. I've only been breeding for 3 yrs so I don't have a lot of litters to compare to.

Melanie and Irene~

I know I have read too that spaying immediately after a c-section is not advisable because it will hinder the Dam's ability to care for the puppies. Those hormones provided by the reproductive organs are essential. Is this what you understand the rationale to be?

Also, I know that if a girl has to have a c-section, special protocols must be undertaken to make sure she "thinks" she free whelped to kick in the natural instincts necessary to care for her babies. They save the placenta and even rub some of the fluids, etc on her nd place the placenta down by her so when she wakes up from the anesthesia it is there.

Is this true?

I have also had other breeders tell me that to save the bitches life they had to pull pups out by pieces when she was having trouble. To me that's too much.

I am all for free whelping and gentle assisting (which I've only done once). None of that roll up your sleeves and dig in kind of assistance. How would 'you' like that? Oh and an episiotomy with out anesthetic...uh..no thanks!

Again, I am not criticizing those that may do things differently than myself. I am just sharing how I currently run my breeding program; which is always subject to change as I learn and grow as a breeder.

Good question..I'd like to know as well.

I've never done that. But I don't see why it wouldn't help. Before a section, feeling real labor pains and the discharge that she passes are things that will also trigger the instincts. You always want to make sure mom's milk is in when in labor or close to going in. This way you can know what you are dealing with and if you need to prepare some supplement.

After our c section,our vet said to wait for the second heat before breeding again,also said if she couldnt free welp,to conceder spaying after 4 months,so we will see,her one pup is doing great so time will tell, but I will only do what is best for her

I, too have heard this...you save one or two placentas which help bring down the milk and to help mom realize that those are her pups and not some aliens that magically appeared.

I posted this link a few months ago a non clinical and sensitive to mother nature article - this is just a small part of the information it is one of the best Ive found.

Rx For Whelping and Ceasarians

http://www.thedogplace.com/library/rx.htm

Even though you know she will be surgically delivered, she should be allowed to progress far enough into labor wherein she will concentrate on licking her nipples and vulva (and everything else within reach) and ideally, her water should break. She will then become quite serious about licking and arranging her bed so that even with the interruption of a trip straight into surgery, she will be much more likely to take up where she left off upon returning home and regaining her wits. The pre-delivery licking is tremendously important as it coincides with hormonal release and lays an important foundation for the bonding behavior between mother and whelp. The first time dam who is trotted off to surgery without benefit of the nesting, licking, cleaning behavior is one who will likely never develop good mothering skills. She is more apt to reject or be frightened by those odd squirmy little things she awakens to find in her bed.

After having allowed her to perform as much of the pre-delivery pattern as is safe, insist that the veterinary surgeon save one very wet placenta. To emphasize the importance of the request, as you gather the bitch, receiving box, blanket, (and of course, your credit card!) be sure to toss in a zip lock freezer bag. If you have reason to believe the round trip will take more than three hours, refrigerate the placenta, otherwise, your very important nursery tool will keep quite nicely.


Upon returning home, settle the bitch and pups and hope she will take notice of them. You can try rubbing them across her vulva but my advice is to take no chances. Prepare the placenta by placing the plastic bag in hot water. When she is alert enough to respond to you, dip the pup’s rear quarters into the bag, then dump the whole mess under her tail as you discreetly place the pups at her rear.

If she was plucked from the nest in the midst of cleaning herself (accompanied by the release of endorphins), her reaction now should be classic. She feels the same pain as before surgery, and she associates it not with the whelps but with licking, cleaning, and satisfaction. So what will she do? Sniff at the mess you’ve quietly made, then clean herself, then with no hovering interference and no break in concentration, she’ll begin to lick her messy whelps. You can now sit back, relax, and admire motherhood functioning as nature intended.

Awesome info!! Thanks Kimberly!

[QUOTE=YorkieRini]I have also had other breeders tell me that to save the bitches life they had to pull pups out by pieces when she was having trouble. To me that's too much.[QUOTE]

OMG no!! That's so awful. :( I feel sick now just thinking about those poor babies and the poor mommy. From reading all this info, I know that I would NEVER breed. I don't have the stomach for it -- I'm not brave enough, I'll admit it. But I do give you good breeders a BIG thumbs up because you're all miracle workers -- you basically hold LIFE in the palm of your hands and then work your magic with love, attention, food, warmth, kindness and all those other extra special touches (like staying up round the clock to watch these babies) that bring these innocent little pups into the world -- while at the same time taking care of the mama dog. I give you guys so much credit and respect.

:eyetearss that sounds funny

Now, this is from a completely different breed...English Bulldogs but they scheduled her c-section. She never went through any labor...long story short, 9 puppies and they brought home 3. That night, the mom managed to get the girl through the cage and she ate every bit of her. Nothing was left but blood...mom didn't know they were her pups. Very sad.

OK.. Now I feel like an A&#! That is horrible but it's a fact. Some can react totally the opposite than a loving mother. Even if they free whelp, some are just, well, lousey moms. That is so sad though about that puppy.

I've heard this too. Puppy is too large, dead, and stuck in the birth canal. Something breeders don't like to talk about.

Yes! This is what I read....

So... that would seem to logically suggest that "planned c-sections" where they are not allowed to go into labor would not be good necessarily?

sections
 

This is an interesting discussion...it is so hard to tell someone how to breed. When I had a new breeder I was mentoring, I insisted on being with them for as many whelpings as I could, until they felt comfortable to try it alone. It is very difficult to know when there is trouble and when there is plenty of time....I just get a gut feeling.

From the time of the start of labor to the first water sac appearance can vary so much depending on the intensity of the contractions. If the bitch is just starting, digging, walking around, lays down pushes a bit, then stops, digs, walks etc..I do not call this serious labor.
I used to tell friends not to call me until the "heavers" appear. Those are the strong contactions that should not go more then 30/60 mins..but here again it depends on many factors..dam size, number of pups, first litter or repeat..that has so much to do with it. Mild labor should produce a water bubble in 30 mins..no sac in an hour, then I want a check and a shot.
Two hours and no pup, I want a section. after giving a shot of Oxy and there is no pup in 30 mins, I will give another, then in 30 mins I want a section.

I give a bitch two chances...but the problem with sections is adhesions. They can cause so many problems in the future. RiniW and I know a friend who lost a girl last year due to adhesions that prevented a second whelping..no way of knowing before..the adhesions blocked the birth canal.

Free-whelping is when the breeder does nothing, but watch. When a bitch needs help, I call it assisted free-whelping.LOL

As to spaying after a section..I have always done it that way with no problems to the dam as to accept pups..BUT not everyone is so lucky. For one thing my virgin bitches spend lots of time with puppies..they see the other girls taking care of puppies and they want to mother them also...so I let them visit the whelping box when mom goes out to potty for a few minutes. Most have to be dragged out...they lay down and play mom...so I never have to encourage anyoen to be a mother.

I have pulled pups out, broken their necks and legs doing so...I had no option. ..That is one reason I stopped breeding the winter..a couple snow storms prevented me from getting to the vet, once all teh electric went out everywhere for 8 hrs...plus, the vet was unable to get out also..he told me to do whatever I had to do to get it out, so I did. My bitches are treasures to me, they never made a sound, they knew I was doing all I could and they trust me.
A breeder must establish a strong "leader of the Pack" imagine..dogs relax when the leader is there, taking charge with no panic.

Kim no it does not imply to plan ahead, quite the opposite, the mom should begin her prelabor stage ...when at all possible. Some cases where the vet has predetermined free whelping could be a risk, progesterone levels should be checked daily once it has dopped to a certain level (ready to whelp) then she should be left in the hands of the vet IMHO. I thank god I've never had to experience a c-section, but I will say if I felt there was any reason to preschedule, I wouldnt hesitate, the vet needs to be on the same page as the breeder to make it all work!

"Even though you know she will be surgically delivered, she should be allowed to progress far enough into labor wherein she will concentrate on licking her nipples and vulva (and everything else within reach) and ideally, her water should break. She will then become quite serious about licking and arranging her bed so that even with the interruption of a trip straight into surgery, she will be much more likely to take up where she left off upon returning home and regaining her wits. The pre-delivery licking is tremendously important as it coincides with hormonal release and lays an important foundation for the bonding behavior between mother and whelp. The first time dam who is trotted off to surgery without benefit of the nesting, licking, cleaning behavior is one who will likely never develop good mothering skills. She is more apt to reject or be frightened by those odd squirmy little things she awakens to find in her bed."

Kim I read your post wrong and yes the article does suggest prelabor is better than a planned c-section! I would agree, when at all possible.

No problem.

section
 

The riskiest section is a planned one BEFORE labor has begun.

Thanks for emphasisizing on that Pat.

And I didn't even think about what I would do if the power went out or somethign like that. My vet's only 2 streets away, so weather won't stop me. But you never can be too prepared. I'll have to think about an emergency whelp plan and kit. Maybe even talk to my vet about it. Hmm...thanks for that reminder and your honesty in your posting.

Love ya girl!
:hug:

Adhesions..
 

I just wanted to add that Adhesions can be avoided IF! And that's a big IF the vet is experience. My vet does a wonderful job the scar is so slight if one at all. I will be up front to say, I am not going to put a limit on my bitches as to how many sections before spay. I will be careful and discuss with my vet. Each bitch and birth is different and I will treat the as such.

As a side, thanks to all who have posted. The information and insight is just SCREAMING out of this post, it's not getting lost if we have debates or differences of opinions. Now this is what I'm talking about!!!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup:

Irene,
I have read that hard labor can go on for hrs. before a puppy even appears, and I have not even delivered my first litter yet, so I can't really talk, but this is an article that was sent to me in order to become more knowledgeable about breeding. Nothing meant by it, just good info I thought.
Hugs.., Karin

http://www.thedogplace.com/library/rx.htm

Pat my vet says that if adhesions are present they would be seen in an xray is this not true?

Sorry, but in my opinion, that is very cruel to do this over and over again. :(

This is an interesting topic...

I personally would want mine to have a natural labor if at all possilbe. One of the reasons we induced Courtney this past Nov. instead of having a c-sec even though she was way over due was because of my feelings towards them. I don\'t think they should be done unless absolutely needed. I think someone asked me a while back, why didn\'t you just have a c-sec with her? Because I think natural delivery is so much better and if it can be done safely, then mom is much happier in the long run, no wound to heal, and no scar tissue. There\'s many other reasons that have already been discussed here, but those are my basic ones.