Well Kimberley, that's certainly NOT what I was saying.

adhesions
 

I will ask RiniW about adhesions...as a matter of fact I do not recall my vet ever mentioning them to me in a second time section. Perhaps, it is the way the surgery is done as posted.

Our friend who lost her bitch told me she had an xray and saw 3 pups..but nothing was mentioned to her about seeing adhesions..interesting question.

Karin..as to labor going on for hours without a pup being produced works for humans, but not toy dogs. They are exhausted and become a risky candiate for surgery. ..and fetal death is a big problem with a prolonged labor.

Everyone must do what they feel is ethical right. I see nothing wrong in giving a bitch two chances to free whelp..after the second section, I stop and spay.

C-sections
 

Wish I could say that none of my dams have had c-sections, but that is not the case.. I will only do two c-setions on one dam and then she will be spay.. I wait an entire year before breeding a c-sectioned mama again.. I will not breed her back to back.. I think she needs that time to heal..

My SugarPlum was sectioned before she went into labor.. She was not herself for over 24 hours and her belly did not look normal to me.. My vet is one not to perform a c-section until we know the mama is in distress, but he listened to me and went ahead with the c-section on SugarPlum.. It saved her life! The walls to her uterus were very very thin and very likely would have ruptured if I had let her try to free whelp on her own.. SugarPlum is now spay and lives a life of leisure with my Mother..

I have never literally pulled and pulled on a puppy for the mama to be able to so-call free whelp it.. Have I assisted in helping a mama, yes I have! When I was working I seen pregnant females in distress come into the office with dead puppy stuck and the mama had even chewed the pup's feet off trying to remove the puppy from her! We spent two minutes and the puppy came free from the mama! But most vets would rather help the mother by maniplating the puppy around to be born then perform a c-section.. But I have never seen a puppy pulled on so hard that it left the mama bruised and sore.. I always keep thick clean washcloths in my whelping kit and if one of my mama's is having a difficult time free whelping the puppy all the way I will use that washcloth to wrap around the feet or head and slightly pull straight down freeing the puppy.. But I would never hurt one of my mamas by trying to free a puppy.. I feel that if you are knowledgeable enough you know the difference from a puppy needing alittle assistance to one being to large to be free whelped.. JMHO..

Helping at work with c-sections I have NEVER seen a english bulldog free whelp, they are all c-sections (at least where I worked).. The owners would always do AI on them also, they would not free breed..

Since I am still learning, how long of a labor is long, before you would rush a Yorkie to the vet for a c-section?
Karin

Kim, Alot of this is a fact as far as my vet is concerned.. But we have never saved a placenta to be with her when she woke from the anesthesia.. I have only had one mama that would not care for her baby after the c-section and that was Lupae's mama.. She wanted absolutely nothing to do with him.. :(

Interesting article Karin. Thanks!

I am sorry but there is NO way I would let my bitch be in hard labor for more than 45 min MAX!. Too much at stake! Like Pat said we all have our comfort levels, take in all the info you get and make your own assesment. What I say today about my program can change tomorrow. It's all about learning from others and your own experiences.

pups
 

Has anyone ever had an xray and a pups head was so large the vet said free whelping was unlikely? I had a mom with a single pup that grew huge..we decided on a section when she started in labor, day or night..
All is going well...she starts labor..I call the vet. By the time I got in the car this big fat pup all but falls out of mom. It took perhaps 15 mins and one push..breeding Yorkies will never cease to amaze me.

Hahaa..no kidding. Never know what will happen with each litter.

Karin,

I only wait a very short time when she first starts to free whelp (that means you will see the bubble).. Usually when they start to whelp for the first puppy you should normally see the puppy whelped within 30-45 minutes, at least that has been my experience.. But it can be a longer time then that between puppies.. One time we waited alittle over 2 1/2 hours between puppies.. All broods are different and no two whelping will be alike.. But you have to remember to stay calm! You lil' girl does not need to feel stress and anxiousness from you while she is whelping..

I agree with Melanie, inbetween pups is different, I let a bitch go about 1.5-2hrs MAX!

Very true.. But it is also so VERY important that you personally know your mamas, because they can also help you through deciding what is best for them! I can tell you the personality and normal behavior of every dog in my home..

I personally think that the amount of c-sections should be left to the breeder if the breeder is a ethical, caring and loving breeder like Irene.. Irene 110% trust her vet (which I have heard great reviews about!) Like I said it all goes back to trusting your vet!!

Melanie

Thanks Pat! This is what I read too, just wanted to hear it from other breeders too.
Karin

Thanks Melanie!
:wub:

One of the breeders I know decided to let her vet decide on a section for her female it was her first litter and she just looked to big. The vet decided it was best to do a section.She had 3 puppies and lost one of them. The breeder wished she would of waited a little longer for the section cause they were very small puppies and thought she might of been able to have them natural . She took Mommy and 2 puppies home and it took 3 days to get the mommy wanting to feed the puppies , she did not know they was hers and tried to get away from them. The breeder said she had to hold the momma dog down to make her feed the babies. she felt so sorry for the mommy cause she was so confused having never had babies before, she didnt know where they came from. Not to mention how sore she was. She said shes always done ok but this time she was just so scared for the mommy cause her tummy about touched the ground.

Wow! That's a shame. Believe me sections are not somethign to be taken lightly. Not all vets should do them. I have heard horrible stories of vets that just 'butchered' a bitch during a section. I will never forget how fortunate I am to have my vet.

There is some good info posted earlier about preparing a mom for a section, letting her go into labor etc. May want to pass that on to your friend for future reference. Sorry she had such a 'devil' of a time.

Do you know if your friend's vet did an x-ray to make sure the puppies were to big to be naturally whelped? I ALWAYS suggest doing the x-ray 7-10 before your females are due.. That will tell you the number of puppies you need to make sure are whelped and it will most importantly tell you the size of the puppies and if they look to large for an easy whelping.. But never have an x-ray done with more than 10 days left until your females due date, because the bones will NOT be calicified enough to see the puppies spines and skulls!

I am not a breeeder but this is all so interesting to read. I am learning so much here. :thumbup:

I don't think multiple c-sections are any crueler than tail docking, or unnecessary s/n. Cruel is cutting a puppies tail off without anesthesia. I had one but I know woman who have had more than one. It wasn't that bad.

I think that because Irene uses an excellent reproductive specialist as a part of her breeding program, that she is getting good advice and doing what is right by her females. In the case of a breeder who wasn't using the very best vet for her breeding program, I would say that multiple c-sections may not be in the best interests of the female.

I know that there are a lot of ordinary general practice vets who do not know what they are doing with yorkies on a day to day basis much less a brood bitch. If I were a breeder, I would only use a vet who was a "specialist" in breeding or at the very least one who had a ton of experience with yorkies and yorkie breeders. There is too much risk with breeding yorkies not to use a reproductive specialist if one is close to you or, if there isn't close, then, MOVE closer to one, don't breed OR find a vet with lots of breeders as clients. I don't think cost should be a factor when making these decisions. JMHO.

thoughts...
 

Cutting into the uterus really is drastically different then clamping a tail. No blood, no infection...and you can numb the tail if you perfer..so it is painless.

A C-section can save a life and take a life..tail docking is so far down on the list of "trouble makers"..but I do understand people being opposed to it.

One thing for sure..once you cut the tail off, the dog will never have to go through it again...and I have known breeders who do 5 and 6 sections before spaying.

No I was wondering that too. I will have to ask her next time we talk and get back to you on that.I know she has been breeding for almost 20 years and that was her first c section. But I will ask next time she calls.

I have to agree Pat.

I wasn't really comparing a c-section to tail docking but more the use of the word "cruel" in each situation. Tail docking w/o anesthesia is very very painful and these are tiny innocent babies so , in my mind, it is cruel. C-sectioning is done under anesthesia so I don't consider it as "cruel" necessarily but I could see where the discomfort afterward as well as it being done repeatedly could become cruel.

In a normal breeding program there is very little need for a reproduction specialist. Most theriogenologist will work hand and hand with a breeders vet when reproduction problems arise, mostly used for progesterone testing, artificial insemination and infertility testing. If ones normal vet is worthy he will have the credentials and capibilites evaluating soundness of a toy breed bitch/dog and manage the day to day care in a breeders program.

There are very few Reproductive Specialist most are located at veterinary colleges(only 27 in the United States) and very few clinics thoughout the US have them. http://www.whelpwise.com/testing/vet...ian-links.html

Insinuating a breeder should not breed unless they exclusively use one is utterly ridiculous...furthermore stating MOVE next door to one is laughable! There are two to be exact in the state or Oregon and one in the state of Washington and 64 throughout the United States!

I refer an incoming bitch owner to the specialist for STD's before I will allow an outside breeding and have used the clinic's lab (via my vet) here twice for progesterine level testing period!

I know Yorkierose stated previously she has never had the need to use one and most breeders will tell you the same thing, a "theriogenologist" services are rarely needed, think about, thus the reason for having very few!

I never claimed to be normal.. :p . I swear by my specialist. And I am super thankful to have him at my disposal. There are people that come from all over the country for his reproduction services. To have him for all my breeding needs is a blessing. Many would love to trade places with me.

He gives seminars on repro at shows and now has a DVD.

That's cute and I agree...I don't claim to be normal either...whatever that is... :p

I certainly respect your opinion. I just know that I wouldn't feel my breeding program was the best it possibly could be unless I had one on my team. JMHO

Breeding yorkies is not easy.....there are a lot of problems, you have to be willing to risk the life of your female to do it, and I don't think suggesting that someone should consider moving close to one before taking on the hobby of breeding yorkies is so ridiculous or laughable. It just happens to be that I have a lower level of risk that I am willing to take than some.

So you're saying that it's OK, but only if you use a reproductive specialist? I am sorry, I am confused, again. It seems as if you are saying the procedure is OK, but only if you have a reproductive specialist, which many don't? What are you condoning, the procedure or the vet? :confused:

BTW...Yorkierini, I am not challenging your practice...I believe you and any other breeder alike needs to make these type of decisions for themselves and are the only true judges of what is right in each situation.

All I can say is thanks for all this information, gives me tons to think about..Hopefully my girls will never need a c-section, but I'm happy I have some great information to think about!!

specialist
 

Time for me to ask a dumb question...what exactly does a reproduction specialist do? Maybe I need one and am too stupid to know it. I can not think of any friends who use them in Md.

Kim,

I totally agree with you, but as we know there are very few reproductive specialist in the US.. My husband is in the AirForce, so I cannot just pick-up and move.. ;) But I do totally understand what you are saying.. I have a wonderful vet and trust him unconditionally.. I believe that a good ethical breeder always makes sure her dogs rather breeders or not are given the best of care possible rather a specialist or not..

Melanie

I am quite sure you are not stupid, my dear. :p I don't use one either, however, I don't think you are wasting your time if you do. I just don't feel as if you HAVE to use one to be a successful, good breeder, that's all.