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Old 01-03-2006, 09:54 AM   #1
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Default C-sections

Depending on the bitch, but I have had 2 sections and then spayed. I do not make these decisions with out the consult of my vet ** repro specialist**. I do NOT schedule c-sections, free whelp is prefered of course. Some have free whelped some have not. Also, sections should be done once labor has begun, NEVER BEFORE!! Otherwise you are looking at the posibility of the uterus rupturing.

When I've had sections it's because the bitch was in hard labor for more than 45 min and no sign of the 'bubble' and when doing an internal check the pups head is just at the finger tip not close to being on it's way out. We don't do sections just because...
Sections are done for more reasons other than the mom being a 'tiny' or too small to whelp on her own. Just wanted to through that out there.

Sections are controversial on here I can feel it..lol. Although I prefer free whelping. I am not opposed to having a section instead of literally pulling pups out to avoid the surgery.

I don't consider having to reach yoru hand in and pull pups out free whelping. Free whelping IMO is pups are guided on the way not, never pulled. But others may not agree.

Also, if I have to chose between having a puppy pulled out (literally) or a section, I would go for the section in a heart beat! I had a bitch that had a litter of 4 pups pulled out of her and it was the worst experience I have ever witnessed, she had no anesthetic to dull the pain, she was black and blue and swollen for weeks afterwards. That was cruel IMO.

Studies that my vet has done prove that sections (done by experienced vets) result in more live births and less risks of losing the bitch (of course timing is a biggie as well).

Great article on sections..
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/whelpingcsection.htm
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:04 AM   #2
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Oh, and I did not have her spayed at the same time she had a section. I've only heard of that being done on an emergency. Not sure if they do it via request.
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:07 AM   #3
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question...a friend has gone through a c-section for one of her yorkies and is planning on breeding her again. How many heats should she sit out before she is bred again? Will she be able to free whelp after having one c-section done or will she more likely have to have a section done again?
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:11 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkieRini
I had a bitch that had a litter of 4 pups pulled out of her and it was the worst experience I have ever witnessed, she had no anesthetic to dull the pain, she was black and blue and swollen for weeks afterwards. That was cruel IMO.
I don't know much about breeding but that does sound extremely painful! I agree with you.
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:19 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txshopper73
question...a friend has gone through a c-section for one of her yorkies and is planning on breeding her again. How many heats should she sit out before she is bred again? Will she be able to free whelp after having one c-section done or will she more likely have to have a section done again?
That's a good question, she may want to ask her vet about breeding again. I have bred a bitch a 2nd time after a section. She absorbed pups. Then my other bitch had pups pulled out the first time, 2nd litter she free whelped 2 pups and the third was big, so a section was done, her 3rd litter she had 5 pups, the first pup was not position correctly, we did a section.

I will ask my vet his findings on free whelp after sections. I've only been breeding for 3 yrs so I don't have a lot of litters to compare to.
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:19 AM   #6
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Melanie and Irene~

I know I have read too that spaying immediately after a c-section is not advisable because it will hinder the Dam's ability to care for the puppies. Those hormones provided by the reproductive organs are essential. Is this what you understand the rationale to be?

Also, I know that if a girl has to have a c-section, special protocols must be undertaken to make sure she "thinks" she free whelped to kick in the natural instincts necessary to care for her babies. They save the placenta and even rub some of the fluids, etc on her nd place the placenta down by her so when she wakes up from the anesthesia it is there.

Is this true?
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:23 AM   #7
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I don't know much about breeding but that does sound extremely painful! I agree with you.
I have also had other breeders tell me that to save the bitches life they had to pull pups out by pieces when she was having trouble. To me that's too much.

I am all for free whelping and gentle assisting (which I've only done once). None of that roll up your sleeves and dig in kind of assistance. How would 'you' like that? Oh and an episiotomy with out anesthetic...uh..no thanks!

Again, I am not criticizing those that may do things differently than myself. I am just sharing how I currently run my breeding program; which is always subject to change as I learn and grow as a breeder.
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:24 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr
Melanie and Irene~

I know I have read too that spaying immediately after a c-section is not advisable because it will hinder the Dam's ability to care for the puppies. Those hormones provided by the reproductive organs are essential. Is this what you understand the rationale to be?

Also, I know that if a girl has to have a c-section, special protocols must be undertaken to make sure she "thinks" she free whelped to kick in the natural instincts necessary to care for her babies. They save the placenta and even rub some of the fluids, etc on her nd place the placenta down by her so when she wakes up from the anesthesia it is there.

Is this true?
Good question..I'd like to know as well.
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:27 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr
Melanie and Irene~

I know I have read too that spaying immediately after a c-section is not advisable because it will hinder the Dam's ability to care for the puppies. Those hormones provided by the reproductive organs are essential. Is this what you understand the rationale to be?

Also, I know that if a girl has to have a c-section, special protocols must be undertaken to make sure she "thinks" she free whelped to kick in the natural instincts necessary to care for her babies. They save the placenta and even rub some of the fluids, etc on her nd place the placenta down by her so when she wakes up from the anesthesia it is there.

Is this true?
I've never done that. But I don't see why it wouldn't help. Before a section, feeling real labor pains and the discharge that she passes are things that will also trigger the instincts. You always want to make sure mom's milk is in when in labor or close to going in. This way you can know what you are dealing with and if you need to prepare some supplement.
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:28 AM   #10
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After our c section,our vet said to wait for the second heat before breeding again,also said if she couldnt free welp,to conceder spaying after 4 months,so we will see,her one pup is doing great so time will tell, but I will only do what is best for her
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:29 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr
Melanie and Irene~

I know I have read too that spaying immediately after a c-section is not advisable because it will hinder the Dam's ability to care for the puppies. Those hormones provided by the reproductive organs are essential. Is this what you understand the rationale to be?

Also, I know that if a girl has to have a c-section, special protocols must be undertaken to make sure she "thinks" she free whelped to kick in the natural instincts necessary to care for her babies. They save the placenta and even rub some of the fluids, etc on her nd place the placenta down by her so when she wakes up from the anesthesia it is there.

Is this true?
I, too have heard this...you save one or two placentas which help bring down the milk and to help mom realize that those are her pups and not some aliens that magically appeared.
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:40 AM   #12
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I posted this link a few months ago a non clinical and sensitive to mother nature article - this is just a small part of the information it is one of the best Ive found.

Rx For Whelping and Ceasarians

http://www.thedogplace.com/library/rx.htm

Even though you know she will be surgically delivered, she should be allowed to progress far enough into labor wherein she will concentrate on licking her nipples and vulva (and everything else within reach) and ideally, her water should break. She will then become quite serious about licking and arranging her bed so that even with the interruption of a trip straight into surgery, she will be much more likely to take up where she left off upon returning home and regaining her wits. The pre-delivery licking is tremendously important as it coincides with hormonal release and lays an important foundation for the bonding behavior between mother and whelp. The first time dam who is trotted off to surgery without benefit of the nesting, licking, cleaning behavior is one who will likely never develop good mothering skills. She is more apt to reject or be frightened by those odd squirmy little things she awakens to find in her bed.

After having allowed her to perform as much of the pre-delivery pattern as is safe, insist that the veterinary surgeon save one very wet placenta. To emphasize the importance of the request, as you gather the bitch, receiving box, blanket, (and of course, your credit card!) be sure to toss in a zip lock freezer bag. If you have reason to believe the round trip will take more than three hours, refrigerate the placenta, otherwise, your very important nursery tool will keep quite nicely.


Upon returning home, settle the bitch and pups and hope she will take notice of them. You can try rubbing them across her vulva but my advice is to take no chances. Prepare the placenta by placing the plastic bag in hot water. When she is alert enough to respond to you, dip the pup’s rear quarters into the bag, then dump the whole mess under her tail as you discreetly place the pups at her rear.

If she was plucked from the nest in the midst of cleaning herself (accompanied by the release of endorphins), her reaction now should be classic. She feels the same pain as before surgery, and she associates it not with the whelps but with licking, cleaning, and satisfaction. So what will she do? Sniff at the mess you’ve quietly made, then clean herself, then with no hovering interference and no break in concentration, she’ll begin to lick her messy whelps. You can now sit back, relax, and admire motherhood functioning as nature intended.
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:58 AM   #13
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Awesome info!! Thanks Kimberly!
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Old 01-03-2006, 11:03 AM   #14
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[QUOTE=YorkieRini]I have also had other breeders tell me that to save the bitches life they had to pull pups out by pieces when she was having trouble. To me that's too much.[QUOTE]

OMG no!! That's so awful. I feel sick now just thinking about those poor babies and the poor mommy. From reading all this info, I know that I would NEVER breed. I don't have the stomach for it -- I'm not brave enough, I'll admit it. But I do give you good breeders a BIG thumbs up because you're all miracle workers -- you basically hold LIFE in the palm of your hands and then work your magic with love, attention, food, warmth, kindness and all those other extra special touches (like staying up round the clock to watch these babies) that bring these innocent little pups into the world -- while at the same time taking care of the mama dog. I give you guys so much credit and respect.
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Old 01-03-2006, 11:09 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txshopper73
her pups and not some aliens that magically appeared.

that sounds funny
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