I think/believe any-one can question a specialist --- otherwise why would any one get a second opinion from another specialist????

The OP says they consulted, so I will take them at their word. In my dealings with various vets over the years, (as I have posted elsewhere), I have been very surprised at what vets "think" is okay to breed!! In some cases I have had to justify to a vet my rationale for NOT breeding a female or a male for that matter. Most vets have very little direct knowledge of the breed specific pre-breeding tests recommended to be done. Certainly general vets have for the most part limited experience in whelping, pregnancy care, gestational issues, puppy rearing et al.

I can't help but find this concerning, and in my mind, goes a long way to understanding how any Tom/Dick or Harry thinks it is okay to breed willy-nilly.

To the OP, I do wish you the very best with the whelp, and hope for a complication free whelp and rearing of these pups. I also hope you are financially, emotionally, and time wise, prepared to deal with any and all snafu's that may occur.

Part I - email to Vet Specialist
 

I contacted the "specialist" because I was intrigued. Contained within and without edit (though things did move when pasted) are the emails that I sent/received. This information is very interesting and I was amazed how I have heard many of the same things here from our respected members. Dr. Lopate was kind enough to take her time to respond to "us" here, and I am very grateful! Thank You!

From: lynzy420
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 1:58 PM
To: lopatec1@gmail.com
Subject: Breeding

Hello,
My name is Lynzy and I belong to an Online community called Yorkietalk.com. It is a large community/forum made up of people from every single walk of life there is, from all over the world.

The "regulars" within this community consist of people who genuinely care
about pups and we routinely review many professionals, breeders, vets,
etc....the importance of this is twofold, it helps people who don't know
things to be led in the right direction, it also helps to educate many
people. If you google anything Yorkie you will see that often times it will
lead you right to the Yorkietalk.com community.

Recently, there has been a thread which I will attach that involves a very
small (we don't use the marketing term teacup) Yorkie having become
pregnant.

According to the Original Poster he/she consulted with you and now links to your bio have been posted. I am not asking you to discuss this particular pup (that I'm not sure even came to you for certain) but wonder if you could shed some light on the information within. Please read through the thread and weed through the important posts regarding this information and let me know your thoughts. Could you, with the information given tell us if the information provided is accurate? Why would proceeding with a delivery/csection be safer than an emergency spay? Under what circumstances is this true?

As someone who advocates for pups and regularly advises people to seek a specialist I want to be certain the information within this thread is
accurate or explained so that other people who read it are not misguided and that we can help others in the future.

I thank you in advance for any enlightening information you can provide!
Thank You,
Lynzy Greene

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/breeder-talk/269397-my-4lb-yorkie-pregnant-
my-10lb-yorkie-first-timer-help.html

Part II - Vet Specialist Response(s)
 

RE: Breeding
Tuesday, November 5, 2013 10:54 PM
From: "Cheryl Lopate" <lopatec1@gmail.com>To: Lynzy420
Thanks for your interest regarding the situation where a small bitch is bred
by a larger male. I will not speak to the specifics of this case, but will
rather speak in generalities.

Normally when an accidental breeding happens, we recommend getting the bitch
in immediately for a vaginal cytology, speculum exam and progesterone to
determine where she is in regards to her fertile period. From there we can
determine when is the earliest we can have her in for a pregnancy ultrasound
to determine a) if she is pregnant; b) approximately how many embryos she
has; and c) to determine gestational age so we have a due date. U/S is quite
sensitive and allows us to determine all these things now with fairly good
accuracy.

If we don't get the call about the breeding right away, then as soon as we
feel we can get them in for the u/s, we recommend that. Gestational aging is
most accurate around mid- pregnancy but we can do it at any time during
pregnancy, right up till term, and we actually have gestational aging
formulas for Yorkies, so we can be pretty accurate with their due dates. The
further along in pregnancy and the larger the litter the harder to get
accurate counts, but we can make estimates in terms of fetal numbers.

During this pregnancy exam, we have a discussion with the owner in regards
to how the pregnancy will be handled. We can 1) allow it to go to term with
a free whelp; 2) allow it to go to term and plan an elective C-section; 3)
allow it to go to term and then do a radiograph close to the start of the
whelping window to assess fetal size in comparison to maternal size to
determine if free whelping is possible or not; 4) terminate the pregnancy by
ovariohysterectomy; 5) terminate the pregnancy medically (prostaglandins,
progesterone receptor antagonists or steroids can all be used successfully
and the type of pregnancy termination would be determined after discussions
with the owner and examination of the patient). Usually we only terminate
medically if the bitch is a broodbitch, because it is typically more
expensive to terminate medically than to perform a pregnant spay.

While there are risks with any surgery, a C-section is typically a less
risky surgery than a pregnant ovariohysterectomy for a number of reasons.
With a pregnant spay there are much higher risks of: 1) bleeding
post-operatively; 2) having the bitch throw a clot after surgery (pregnancy
is a thromboembolic state - which means that they are more likely to have
abnormal clotting issues, and with a spay you have cut and tied off
(ligated) many, many vessels, all of which can release a clot and have it go
into the circulation where it may go to the brain or lungs, killing the
patient); 3) having significant blood loss (the blood volume of the bitch is
shared with the pregnant uterus so when you spay a pregnant bitch you
removed this shared blood volume making the bitch immediately anemic), which
can cause a significant drop in blood pressure and make the bitch a much
higher anesthetic risk for the remainder of the surgery.

C-sections are a safer anesthetic procedure than a pregnant
ovariohysterectomy in the hands of a veterinarian who is experienced with
the physiologic changes that occur during pregnancy. So as long as the bitch
is managed well nutritionally so that she is not in poor body condition at
term, C-section is definitely safer than a pregnant spay (or even worse a
C-section spay- which has all the same risks as above plus additional
surgical time in a patient that has become a poor anesthetic candidate by
the acute removal of 1/3 of her blood volume).

In a case such as this, where the male is significantly larger than the
bitch, and the bitch is quite small to begin with, free whelping is most
likely going to be out of the question. So if the owner prefers not to do a
pregnant spay, C-section is the safest way to try to deliver pups. A x-ray
will confirm or refute the need for a C-section, if done close to term and
would absolutely be recommended in a situation like this if the owner was
contemplating free whelping. We would not recommend just trying to free
whelp and then seeking medical attention if she failed to progress, as she
could get into serious trouble quickly and depending on how far away from
emergency veterinary care the clients were and how quickly they could get
into surgery, the risk to the bitch could become significant. That said, the
bitch does contribute half the genetics to the pups and so fetal size may
not necessarily be too big, especially if litter size were high enough to
cause the fetus' growth to be subdued to space concerns in the uterus.

Hopefully that helps with your understanding about the risks of free
whelping, C-section, and pregnant spay as well as how we recommend dealing
with accidental breedings. Please let me know if you have any further
questions in this regard.

RE: BreedingWednesday, November 6, 2013 12:02 AM
Mark as Unread Flag this messageFrom: "Cheryl Lopate" <lopatec1@gmail.com>To: lynzy420 I just realized there was more than 1 page of comments.... so one other
comment that was made which is not really accurate is that small bitches are
no more likely than a large bitch to rupture her uterus. A bitch with an
obstructive dystocia has a risk of uterine rupture regardless of size. The
uterus has an amazing capacity to stretch such that the size of the fetuses
may preclude vaginal delivery but uterine rupture will not typically occur
unless the bitch has an obstruction during delivery or she is given too high
a dose of oxytocin against an obstruction.

I'd also comment that an early pregnancy spay is less risky than a last
third of pregnancy spay, although all pregnancy spays have a significantly
higher risk than a normal, non-pregnant spay. While shelters and general
practitioners may be willing to risk a bitch just to get her spayed as
quickly as possible, it my job as a specialist to consider all the risks and
benefits of all options and to present these to the client to help them make
an educated decision hopefully with the best interest of the bitch in mind
without all the emotion of the situation thrown into the mix.

I do understand that all of you on this list feel that bitches bred
accidentally need to be spayed and that breeding should not be undertaken
without complete health testing, pedigree analysis, assessment of
conformation and temperament and I completely agree with this. I spend a
considerable amount of time discussing these very things with my clients
every single day.

Ultimately though, what needs to be considered is when is the safest time
for a late pregnant bitch to be spayed? Spaying in late pregnancy has many
more risks (previously discussed in my last email) than waiting until she
has weaned the puppies. A managed pregnancy and an elective C-section puts
the late pregnant bitch at less risk, than all other options in this case
(besides medical termination of pregnancy - which also has its own risks).
Recommendations made to owners need to be made on a case by case basis and
broad generalizations need to be avoided.

Cheryl

Cheryl Lopate, MS, DVM
Diplomate, American College of Theriogenologists
(Board Certified in Reproduction)
lopatec1@gmail.com

Wilsonville Veterinary Clinic (small animal facility)
9275 SW Barber St
Wilsonville, OR 97070
503-682-3737
503-682-3540 (fax)
Wilsonville Veterinary Clinic - Reproductive Revolutions

Reproductive Revolutions (equine facility)
18858 Case Rd NE
Aurora, OR 97002
503-982-5701
503-982-5718 (fax)
Wilsonville Veterinary Clinic - Reproductive Revolutions

Thanks Lynzy for writing to this vet and thank you Dr. Lopate for all of this information! This will be a great reference thread for people seeking information in the future.

Wow. Thank you Lynzy for sending her the email. Her responses was very informative.

What great responses and information provided by this vet, wow! And, how generous of her to take the time to respond so thoroughly to us. Many thanks to Dr. Cheryl Lopate!

Yes very informative and I thank Dr Lopate for her time and the thoroughness of her reply.

How-ever there are other considerations that will need to be weighed by the owner. How one weighs these considerations will be a matter of opinion/belief and circumstance.

First of course is very early intervention, you have witnessed a tie, and then what? There are medical answers available to terminate immediately. Without a huge risk to the female, as far as I am aware. Here I am talking about 24hrs-1 week after the or even suspected tie. Surely immediate vet attention is what we would recommend.

But there are very real responsibilities and concerns with whelping either by C section or naturally with a litter of puppies in the hands of a novice, with no experienced support available to them. These are not easy decisions, they weigh the life of your bitch, with the future life/health of the puppies. They weigh your ability to knowledgeably rear healthy puppies, to socialize those puppies, your financial responsibility for these puppies, and the ultimate good health of the puppies involved. THey weigh your ability to secure and find good homes for the pups, and your ability to be up front with future purchasers about the lineage and un-known issues a would be purchaser might face in adopting/buying one of these pups.

Your vet is giving you advice on the best health decision for your dog, and not necessarily considering all future factors for the pups involved, and or what you will need to do after whelping.

Thanks Lynzy & thank you also to this vet who took time from her schedule to write a very informative response.

As a complete non breeder, it may take ne a few reads of her responses to "get" everything she said but I totally agree that it's great information to have.

I am reading this, rather bleary eyed, after spending all night with one of my little ladies that was whelping. After an hour of active pushing, I helped deliver this first baby.....it was a situation where there was no turning back....the baby was presenting, was having a very tight squeeze getting through the pelvic ring due to position of pups legs and head (something you can not ever know ahead of time)....suffice it to say, after a VERY difficult pulling, turning, rotating, twisting, and lots and lots of lubricant, 40 minutes later I managed to pull this baby out. This is a dam who routinely free whelps....she weighs 6 lbs. The sire weighs 5 lbs and routinely throws babies that usually are in the 2.5 - 3oz range at birth, maturing to 4.5 - 5.5 lbs. These dogs come from very well known, well monitored lines behind them, that I personally have a working knowledge of, 17 generations back....my mentor knows these dogs as far as 30 generations back....they are consistant and deliberate in what they throw. I have been doing this for many years, and thank God, I had the knowledge to get this done and save this baby's life. Then 3 hours later, we still had another puppy to deliver....and momma was no longer even actively pushing. I manually palpated her vaginal vault/birth canal, and rather than feeling a little round head or butt or even a leg, I hit a "wall".....that second baby was now sideways and would not be delivered....I had my vet on call, I called her, and we now had an emergent situation....GREEN DISCHARGE being expelled from momma....placenta is separating from baby.....EMERGENCY!!! I got to the vet office within 10 minutes, Buttons was in surgery within 7 minutes, and praise the Lord, we delivered a healthy, loudly protesting little boy! This entire whelping event, from start to finish, with careful monitoring of momma, until our trip to the vet, was from 10am on Tuesday morning, until 10:30am Wednesday morning, at the tune of final cost of over $2000.00........including my breeders discount.
I will continue to pray for this OP's litter of mixed breed babies from an undersized Yorkie female from unknown pedigree, and a much larger mixed breed male, also of unknown pedigree....born to a novice that has never attended a whelping, perhaps never even seen a puppy born.....this is all in God's hands because He is the only one overseeing this with the knowledge and where with all to pull it off successfully, without loss of anyone's life.

You literally have me shaking, heart pounding...genuine tears. Thank God you were there and have the 30+ years experience. Go to show that even with that knowledge anything can happen.

This is was scares me so much with these "accidents" breedings.

Great you got answers and I honestly wish people wouldn't automatically say abort the litter as most repro vets don't advise it.
And no breeding is not for the faint of heart

*****

MOD HERE WITH AN UPDATE!!
MOD HERE WITH AN UPDATE!!

So my little girl has safely finished carrying 3 pups!
2 girls and 1 boy!
All 3 pups are as healthy as can be, and so is momma.

First I'd like to say thank you all for the abundance of replies!
However, I'm astonished at how unfriendly this thread became.
Not only towards me and my situation, but also to eachother!
You are all extremely biased and opinionated, which is fine, because
as knowledgeable breeders you should be. But again, I think this
got a little bit out of hand.

I understand the situation was not optimal, and that's why I came here.
It was an accidental pregnancy, and was not realized until nearly 6 weeks!
Fearful, I came here to seek information and help getting through it all.
I agree that it was a dangerous situation, but instead of helping me get
through the pregnancy giving support, you all did nothing except post
hateful messages. I understand why to an extent, but again, all I wanted
was help and support getting through the pregnancy. After your initial
replies, it was suggested that I seek out professional advice from a vet,
which I went on to receive from my vet as well as a pregnancy specialist.
I was told that since she was so far along, an emergency spay would be
just as dangerous as carrying out the pregnancy. All of you disagreed and
stuck to your guns. But following the 2 vets advice, I decided to proceed
with caution. Oh and by the way, the specialist also authored a book on
animal pregnancy, so I'm pretty sure I can trust her advice confidently!

In the end, we receieved a small window for the possible duedate, so
a couple days prior to the window we went in to get an ultrasound and
test her progesterone levels, etc.. For the following 4 days we went in
daily to get her progesterone levels tested and take more scans.
In the end, she did need to get a Csection because the pups heads were
a bit too wide for her to deliver (which was highly expected), and as soon
as her progesterone levels had dropped to the correct level, she went into
surgery on day 4 (today).. Everything went great and as planned; the puppies
are as healthy as can be, and momma is doing great as well. From here
forward I will be giving momma oxytocin sprays nasally, taking close care
of the pups environment etc, and eventually weening.

I would say thank you for all the help and support, but honestly I didn't
receive any. All I got was yelled at. And although I understand why, I still
would've appreciated a bit more on the level of help and support, since
I had already understood the dangers of the situation, and chose to follow
the professional advice I got. Bottom line is, the educated decision was
made to proceed with the pregnancy because of how far along she was,
so it would've been nice if you all would've just accepted that and helped
me get through it.

Anyway, I do appreciate the info, opinions, and advice I was given, and am
happy to report a successful pregnancy.. I will try to get some pictures
of the 3 pups (as well as momma and poppa) posted up soon.

If there is anybody who is willing to provide help and support during the
next few weeks, I would greatly appreciate it, and will post any questions
or concerns I may have here on this thread.
Thanks again!

*****

Congratulations!!
 

Thank you for the wonderful update on momma and her three puppies. You and she must be very proud and happy. It has been a rough and scary time for you, but you soldiered on and came out smiling. You got the best advice and treatment for your girl and you were all rewarded. Please congratulate your vets too for helping you bring this pregnancy to a successful conclusion. Decisions like this are difficult but one has to trust the expertise of your advisors, and you did.
It will be hard work for you helping momma bring up her pups but the joy of seeing them grow and mature will be worth every minute.
I am sure all here look forward to pics and progress reports, and we pray mom and babes will continue to thrive. Momma deserves lots of lovely treats, she is a strong and brave little girl.
Wishing you peace and love. We are all praying for you. Thanks again for the great news!! All's well that ends well. :-))

Whatever....you had an intact female and an intact male.......so there was NO accident.

Let me just say that in MY experience as a vet tech, since retired. The only time a vet sees a 4lb PG yorkie is when she needs serious help. Vets don't honestly have as much experience in a normal/natural whelp as a breeder does. Also most vets just use the canned powdered puppy/kitten formulas witch often gives a puppy/kitten the runs from he!! & that brings on a whole new set of problems as it's nearly impossible to insert an IV cath in a tiny newborn puppy or kitten as their veins are just too tiny to hold a needle. So for a knowledgeable yorkie person/breeder to question a vet on saying breeding a 4lb dog is fine, is not IMHO out of line at all & IMHO is not fine.

DottiesYrky - Thank you so much for the positive reply, I greatly appreciate it.

LadyJane - Take dottiesyrky's reply as an example of a good response to my post,
rather than the rude, stubborn, immature post that you decided to make.
Bottom line is yes, it WAS an accident - we kept them separated to the best of our
ability, and made sure she had a diaper on at all times to prevent something like this
from happening, but during the night she somehow managed to wiggle out of her diaper,
and got pregnant. So yea, it WAS an accident. And the only reason we didn't have her
spayed yet is because at some point we were hoping to have a litter with my sisters
boy pup, but unfortunately my own boy got to her first because of the diaper incident.
So again, YEAH, it WAS an accident. And you're very stubborn and thick-headed to make
the reply you just made, after everything I said in my update. Instead, most mature adults
would be happy she was successful, and simply reply with a positive attitude, congratulating
me and wishing me the best. Buuut no, you chose to act like a stubborn 5 year old and
continue to reinforce and prove the negative things I spoke of in my update. But that's ok,
some people just don't have good character. Can't blame you for that, it comes natural.

To everyone else - I'm very happy for my little girl, and glad everything was a success :)
If you haven't read my update yet, please do. And thanks to everyone!
Pics coming sometime soon!

:)

Lillymae - perhaps you should read the entire thread before making comments like this. The vet never said it was fine to breed a 4lb yorkie FYI, she had already gotten pregnant by accident and was 6 weeks along before we found out. So due to the risks of doing an emergency spay that far into pregnancy, she suggested we carry it out, and most likely will need a Csection. So you're putting words in my mouth as well as the vets, because she never said it was "ok".. And let me note once again that the pregnancy specialist I saw is the author of a published book on the topic. So I took her advice, and I'm glad I did. Next time please read everything clearly before making remarks. Thanks :)
Sorry if I'm coming off rude, just a bit irritated.

So you had planned on breeding this under sized female to another dog ? I am happy to hear that mommy & pups are all doing well but I don't feel it's safe or responsible to breed any dog under 5 lbs.

I believe you misunderstood my post. I never said that your vet said it was ok to breed a 4 lb dog, I did say that "I" don't believe it is safe or responsible to breed a 4 lb dog. I did read the whole thread & have followed your thread from your very 1st post. I don't believe I misunderstood anything I have read but maybe I do need to reread this thread. I am sorry if I have offended you as it was never my intent. I believe that most here who have posted in your thread have simply been passionately trying to educate & really meant no harm but have been passionately worried for your Bitch. Again, I am happy to hear all is well as I too was sick with worry for your Bitch. That said, I feel that to breed her to another dog of any size would be irresponsible, and now am begging you to spay this tiny girl.

hahahahh

Congrats on a safe C-section and that your gal is doing fine with the nursing of the pups. I do hope you know that is not always the case after a C section. By now you probably have found Debbie Jensen's web site, which has some good info and advice on whelping/puppy-care et al.

To the part I bolded; it is important for future readers to realize that diapers/belly bands et al, are not meant to be used as an impediment to breeding; they as you have found out are woefully in-adequate for that job. Usually two procedures are used, separate rooms and separate crates, and no un-supervised interactions. Males and females are exercised separately and are not let free run of the house together.

I am assuming you did not have your gal spayed along with the C-section so unless she is spayed before her next heat; I urge you to keep her separated from your male as described above.

Good luck with the pups and momma.

You know what Bryce, when you post on a public forum you get lots of opinions. If you don't want that, don't post.

I for one am calling Bull on the "accidental" breeding. You had an unneutered male, and an unspayed female. Failing to plan and take adequate precautions is not an accident, it's irresponsible.

Thank the heavens that even fools get lucky sometimes and no one dies- not for lack of trying though.

Congratulations on safely having the puppies. I commend you for consulting a professional and going through with the c-section. I am sure this whole thing has been a financially costly lesson for you. I am just glad it didn't cost you your little girl.


Now that you know that it's not safe to breed a 4lb female to ANY dog, I hope you do right by your little girl and get her spayed as soon as you safely can. She made it through this ordeal once, but she may not make it through again.


I thank your vet for coming here to explain her reasoning behind not doing a pregnancy spay and opting for a c-section instead.


I hope other people who think about breeding read this thread first. Too many people think they can breed anything and make a buck off it. I am not saying you are doing that...but there are others that do have that fantasy...and they don't realize how risky it is or how costly it can be. Thank goodness you had the financial backing to be able to safely birth these little babies....and thank goodness you had a vet who could safely deliver them!!

I look forward to seeing pictures!!

Congrats on the pups and glad momma and babies are doing well.

One note...if your female couldn't whelp due to the size of the pup's heads...it's likely her pelvis is too narrow.

I'm glad you female survived and got the c-section. I would let the mother do the weening unless something health wise is wrong with her most good breeders I have talked to do it that way. Also please keep the pups with there mom until 12 weeks. Are you planning on getting her spayed after all of this and your male neutered?

To the OP....first to say I am so thankful that all our prayers were answered and the mom and babies are doing okay right now. All of us on YT just has the best interested of the momma in mind when we posted. I pray the momma and her new babies do well.

You were warned by all of us that most likely the mom would need a c-section. You had a good outcome because you did listen to us and you found a good vet that explained all your options and your vet was there to help you. Unfortunately there are many people that breed small females, whether planned or unplanned, and many of them do not have the finances to do what you did. Sadly I know some people that would just let the momma try to have the pups and in some cases the pups die and occasionally the momma will die too. Thank you for seeking proper care for you girl.

I must say that I was disappointed when I read that you had planned to breed your tiny female all along, but to a different male. You are free to choose what you do with your dog but I still feel it is a unwise decision for you to breed her again in the future.

You still have lots of work ahead of you. Right now you have to concentrate on making sure the momma is eating well and the pups are all able to nurse. She needs about 4 good meals a day. Make sure she eats well right before bedtime. Make sure she is getting a calcium supplement.

Other things to look for:
If the momma's teats start looking hard and lumpy that is an indication that she is getting mastitis. If this happens you need to get her back to the vet so he can put her on an antibiotic.

If the momma starts running a high temperature (over 103), then contact the vet. Some new mommas can get a uterus infection and that can be deadly.

I do hope you keep us updated and share your experience with us, whether good or bad. Others can learn from your experience. Please feel free to ask any questions. I also hope you share some pictures with us.

WAY out of line. WAY WAY WAY out of line.

And by the way, for future reference, diapers are not sold to prevent dogs from mating, they are only supposed to keep the mess from getting on your furniture, carpets, etc. Dogs can and do tie with them on. Dogs even tie through a fence and in the holes through kennels. This was entirely preventable, but obviously the proper precautions were not taken, or she would not have ended up pregnant. It's not the dog's fault ... dogs do what dogs do. It's your fault, and no accident but a failure. An accident is when you back up your car and bump another car because you didn't see them behind you. You saw that your girl was in heat and did not keep the male away from her. May as well have just put a t-shirt on her, that prevents a tie just as well as a diaper.

However, that being said once the failure occurred, you did pick up the pieces and thank goodness you were able to get her a controlled c-section and all is well. I am so relieved that all are alive.

One other thing, there really isn't anyone here that can help you through a pregnancy like that. We're all just people with Yorkies on a Yorkie discussion board. Sure, there are a few that are experienced breeders, but you really needed someone to be there physically, someone who knows the danger signs that an inexperience person would not recognize. Someone there WITH you who would know what do do in even textbook normal situations. You got that when you went to your vet, it is next to impossible for someone inexperienced (I use that term in general, not specifically about you, and I definitely lump myself in that category) to get advice from people that aren't there and cannot actually exam the dam and see what is actually happening.

Really, the only thing they can do is advise you to see your vet and that is where you ended up. So please don't fault these people for not giving you as much help as you thought they should give. That is really difficult over cyberspace, and, given that she needed a c-section, they gave you the right advice.

As I was concerned, the pups were too big to be delivered without a c-section. Thank God YOU had the where with all to financially handle the financial burden of the specialist and all the extra testing and hormone level checks. Please take into consideration, these posts are read by thousands of people. Everyday, people are going thru the very same experience you had....small female, large mixed breed male, questionable pedigree behind the mixed breed, etc, etc......Probably easily 80% of those same people will NOT have all the expensive testing, and specialist consulting on the pregnancy. They will just stumble into such a whelping with catastrophic and devastating consequences.....this is why the experienced breeders posted as they did on your thread. And it did turn out, exactly as we were sure it would. YOUR pup was delivered by c-section....if some of us had not spoken as we did, others may come along and think they can also go thru this with wonderful results....the difference is they may not follow up with continous lab work and ultra sounds and hormore levels and f/u with a reproductive specialist, which fortunately resulted exactly as predicted, a c-sectiuon procedure for the vet, in addition to the expensive labs and ultrasounds, etc. Not everyone will be doing this, like you did.....it is financially prohibitive to them, especially "first timers" that may not understand the danger this female was in right from the beginning. Good for you.....you followed what experience has taught the rest of us and your little lady survived along with her litter. I DO understand now why you did not want to terminate the pregnancy with a spay..........you intend to breed this female, as planned all along.

This response and "swipe" at a person that has probably forgotten more about dogs and breedings and "accidents", than you have acquired to date, from a "novice" to breeding, a "newbie" to this forum, can only be excused because of your inexperience on all fronts. You clearly do NOT understand, among so many OTHER things, the extreme care that MUST be taken when you have two intact dogs of the opposite sex in the same area. Experienced breeders ROUTINELY have multiple males along with multiple females, running around on the same property.....and they do not have "accidental breedings".....there are no accidents, someone skrewed up, and it is usually the huiman that is in charge of the dog and pony show that did not use their head. The very first thing you MUST learn, is how to keep intact dogs from breeding....it is elementary and unless you want more unplanned pregnancies, by unplanned studs, all running around, breeding mommas and fathers, sisters and brothers, etc, YOU have to accept accountability for this pregnancy and all others that occur on your property! The truth is often times offensive and not swallowed well, but you have to realize, as a "breeder", which you clearly plan to be, you need to know your limitations and accept responsibility for whatever happens on YOUR watch. Putting a belly band and a diaper on two dogs, whose instinct to breed is so strong they would both literally walk into a house on fire to get it done, is irresponsible at best.......Dont take cheap swipes at experienced people that are trying to help you understand the perils of the path YOU have chosen. I have a mentor that has made me cry with her brutality and honesty...but she has made me everything I am today in this breeding game.....I will add I have NEVER had a female "accidentally" bred by anything! Not everyone is all warm and fuzzy with their responses....take it, and either learn from that particular view and approach, or move on without it. Then one day, 25 or 30 years from now, look back and SEE who you learned the most from, and the technique they used to get major points across you.