All blue baby Yorkie born yesterday!!!

[yorkie-gems]

I have been searching everywhere, and can only find very limited information on these little guys? One typical registered show breeder, who states very clearly that "all" pups that don't meet the breed standard are sickly. This is obviously not true at all, and very narrow minded thinking in my opinion. Especially for those only breeding for pet quality, and not show.
I see another girl on here was looking for info on her little blue guy too. However hers doesn't look quite as blue as ours? I'm now looking for breeders that have had blue baby's before, and can offer me some insight of what to watch for as he ages etc.
Both parents are registered... and we had 5 teeny boys born in this litter. Only one is blue though, and he is ALL a beautiful blue. He is the 2nd biggest in the litter, and seems just as healthy as his brothers. His nose, and points are also quite fair though.... no black at all. I'll try to get a better picture of just him later, but here is one I took just after the pups were born.
(hoping this pic worked)

[Yorkiemom1]

A breeding pair that is throwing blue borns, is not something you want to perpetuate. This pair should be spayed and neutered so the gene pool is not contaminated with this. We are seeing more and more blue borns, I think....this is a scary deterioration/flaw in the gene pool, and it needs to be stopped where possible.

[gemy]

She has another thread, where she got lots of good info. It might have been in the general forum, not too sure though.

[yorkie-gems]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

A breeding pair that is throwing blue borns, is not something you want to perpetuate. This pair should be spayed and neutered so the gene pool is not contaminated with this. We are seeing more and more blue borns, I think....this is a scary deterioration/flaw in the gene pool, and it needs to be stopped where possible.

I understand genetics just fine, and not to worry... Mom was being spayed right after this litter anyway. I'm not sure if she was ever tested, but her parents were. Both parents were show dogs. I purchased her as a 10 month old pet quality breeder. She wasn't quite what the lady was looking for in the ring, but thought she'd produce beautiful pups... and she was has. Until now that is.
Dad comes from a long line of Champions, and was tested. I paid the breeder for this. He tested clear at the time, but maybe something could have changed in the past year? I doubt that's possible, since it seems to be a genetic issue.
This was to be their first, and only litter together, so I doubt we could have known ahead of time. However it won't be happening again. She was our only breeding female, and we've only ever had one breeding pair at a time.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by yorkie-gems

I understand genetics just fine, and not to worry... Mom was being spayed right after this litter anyway. I'm not sure if she was ever tested, but her parents were. Both parents were show dogs. I purchased her as a 10 month old pet quality breeder. She wasn't quite what the lady was looking for in the ring, but thought she'd produce beautiful pups... and she was has. Until now that is.
Dad comes from a long line of Champions, and was tested. I paid the breeder for this. He tested clear at the time, but maybe something could have changed in the past year? I doubt that's possible, since it seems to be a genetic issue.
This was to be their first, and only litter together, so I doubt we could have known ahead of time. However it won't be happening again. She was our only breeding female, and we've only ever had one breeding pair at a time.

When you mentioned tested, tested for what? It is not as far as I know common practice to test genetically for the Dd gene.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by yorkie-gems

I understand genetics just fine, and not to worry... Mom was being spayed right after this litter anyway. I'm not sure if she was ever tested, but her parents were. Both parents were show dogs. I purchased her as a 10 month old pet quality breeder. She wasn't quite what the lady was looking for in the ring, but thought she'd produce beautiful pups... and she was has. Until now that is.
Dad comes from a long line of Champions, and was tested. I paid the breeder for this. He tested clear at the time, but maybe something could have changed in the past year? I doubt that's possible, since it seems to be a genetic issue.
This was to be their first, and only litter together, so I doubt we could have known ahead of time. However it won't be happening again. She was our only breeding female, and we've only ever had one breeding pair at a time.

Is there anyway you could share what lines were on the parents side? It might help future breeder to avoid combining those lines. Also was the breeding a line breeding or an outcross. Just trying to figure out how the blues pop up.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by bjh

Is there anyway you could share what lines were on the parents side? It might help future breeder to avoid combining those lines. Also was the breeding a line breeding or an outcross. Just trying to figure out how the blues pop up.

What is really concerning is "Champion show dog" that is a carrier for this gene, and the breeder is selling dogs for the purpose of "breeding pet quality Yorkies." This is exactly how the breed is getting infused with these carriers, who are then sold as breeders, throwing more and more of these pups. I would LOVE to know the lines behind the parents of this breeding pair, since that is where the "Champion show dog" parents are..... Please contact the breeder and let her know she has a genetic fault in her lines and she needs to stop breeding those two dogs (the parents of your female) and have the rest of her dogs genetically tested for this.....especially since she is passing out carriers as "breeders for pet quality Yorkies". It only takes one carrier outcross, bred to a fabulous line of dogs, to ruin the entire shooting match she is producing....and making that original line look bad! Thois is why breeders will not sell pet quality dogs for breeding....

[yorkie-gems]

They are most certainly outcross. Mom is double registered... but imported from the US. Dad is CKC, and from here in Canada. I'm not sure I feel comfortable handing out personal information on a forum, since I'm new here... and I've not had the chance to speak to the breeders myself. I adopted Mom from the woman who had imported her into Canada, as a show prospect. This was my females 5th, and last litter, and all previous litters were very healthy. This was Dad's 3rd litter, and all other pups are healthy.
As I stated previously, this was the 1st and only breeding of this particular pair. So we have no concerns of any further issues happening here. As I understand it, it takes both male & female to create this genetic default... since each needs to carry the gene. So this really shouldn't ever happen again.
I highly doubt anyone is going to be taking on these particular lines, when adopting a puppy. Especially since Dad is from Canada, and I know his sire is now retired.
If you're just simply curious about my honesty, or think I'm lying about anything... simply put; piss off! I'm not here to prove to any of you personally, that I am an honest person.
However, I will send those who ask, and are genuinely needing the parents lineage for their own personal records, by pm only.
Just in case you're wondering... since I'm sure the question will come up about my ethics too; ALL of our pups have, and will always be adopted out with strict spay/neuter contracts. Not one single pup of ours has ever been sold with breeding rights, nor with reg papers. I purposely exclude the paperwork, to help discourage any breeding from our lines.
So this particular line... is null and void from my end.
I honestly came to this site, to seek knowledge. Suggestions on how to properly care for this little guy, and to fully understand what caused this. Obviously there isn't a lot of information out there, and I know this now.
Of course he'll be staying with us, to continue to monitor him.
I will continue to offer periodical updates on his progress, and note any issues he might have... to help others that have blue born pups in the future.

[msyorktown]

Member here Kendra has a beautiful two year old blue born...Mack Brown, she may be of assistance as to the care of your blue born.

[chachi]

I dont think anyone is questioning ypur honesty. The blue born can be such a serious genetic abnormality that we want to make sure we get the info out that the breeder pair and in your case your breeders breeding pair need to be spay and neutered so the cycle doesnt continue

[gemy]

Originally Posted by yorkie-gems

They are most certainly outcross. Mom is double registered... but imported from the US. Dad is CKC, and from here in Canada.
Just in case you're wondering... since I'm sure the question will come up about my ethics too; ALL of our pups have, and will always be adopted out with strict spay/neuter contracts. Not one single pup of ours has ever been sold with breeding rights, nor with reg papers. I purposely exclude the paperwork, to help discourage any breeding from our lines.
and to fully understand what caused this. Obviously there isn't a lot of information out there, and I know this now.
Of course he'll be staying with us, to continue to monitor him.
I will continue to offer periodical updates on his progress, and note any issues he might have... to help others that have blue born pups in the future.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...rn-yorkie.html

On another posting thread of yours I linked the above link and directed you specifically to certain posts, and in particular to the last page.

Your understanding of what caused this, can be elaborated upon as follows in post number 50 or so on the above link.

Dd = carrier. If mated with a normal DD dog, half of the progeny will be carriers, and half will be normal. If mated with another carrier, 1/4 of the progeny will be normal (DD), 1/2 of the progeny will be carriers (Dd), and 1/4 of the progeny will be blue (dd). In a breeding program, all carriers should be neutered or spayed.

Now if you read the genetic information on that link I posted you will see that your breeding pair at least both of the two would have had to be carriers.
So if I understand your breeding records correctly your bitch had had four litters before all "normal" ie no blue borns, so she must be a Dd that mated with DD's until this last litter where in she was bred by a carrier of that gene. For if the sire was DD as well, they simply could not have a blue born pup....

So if I am doing the genetic math correctly, all litter members of your bitch especially if there are any out there breeding, and the breeders of your bitch and sire need to be notified that she carries the gene, and therefore your bitches parents must both be carriers. So that spans a whole lot of notifications. And I am aware you have sold all previous pups on a spay and neuter contract, and hopefully have some method to see if this neutering actually happened.

Now let us get on to the code of ethics for Breeder members of CKC. It states III. General Responsibilities

The following are a set of general responsibilities that shall be understood and accepted by all CKC member breeders:

(a) Every breeder shall be conversant with and fully adhere to the By-laws, rules, regulations, policies and procedures of CKC, as well as the requirements of the Animal Pedigree Act (APA).

(b) All litters and all dogs in each litter shall be registered with the CKC. Litter registrations shall be forwarded to CKC as soon as is reasonably possible after the birth of the dogs. Upon the sale of each dog from any litter, breeders shall transfer ownership and register each dog in the name of the purchaser in accordance with stated requirements.

So if indeed you are a breeder member of Canadian Kennel Club, you had no right to withhold the paperwork from the purchasers.

I do hope that you notify widely through their lineage and you can only hope the breeders of the parents of your bitch and sire, will also do their due diligence in terms of notifications.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

What is really concerning is "Champion show dog" that is a carrier for this gene, and the breeder is selling dogs for the purpose of "breeding pet quality Yorkies." This is exactly how the breed is getting infused with these carriers, who are then sold as breeders, throwing more and more of these pups. I would LOVE to know the lines behind the parents of this breeding pair, since that is where the "Champion show dog" parents are..... Please contact the breeder and let her know she has a genetic fault in her lines and she needs to stop breeding those two dogs (the parents of your female) and have the rest of her dogs genetically tested for this.....especially since she is passing out carriers as "breeders for pet quality Yorkies". It only takes one carrier outcross, bred to a fabulous line of dogs, to ruin the entire shooting match she is producing....and making that original line look bad! Thois is why breeders will not sell pet quality dogs for breeding....

No reputable CKC that is CAnadian Club Breeder member, will sell a dog to breed "pet" quality dogs.

All companion dogs should be sold on a spay and neuter contract unless being sold to another show breeder. Dogs not sold as companion dogs are sold as "potential" show quality dogs, and de facto are expected to undergo the rigorous requirements of show. That is training, vetting, showing, testing, et al.

Even if as in the YOrkie breed you purchase a six month old pup, there is a lot that can veer off course from six months old, until the time they are ready to be bred and deemed worthy to be bred. You have all your health tests to go through, hopefully the few genetic screening tests we have have been done when they were a few days old, but still so many other tests that some of which can not be evaluated until 2yrs old..... There is the earning of a championship.

Until we eradicate this confusion with-in the purebred world of Oh well I just want a pet not a show dog, we will get breeders who think it is somehow OK to breed purebred dogs for PETS. it is not okay, at all.

this fallacy points to a hole in our current system. I am more than aware that show breeders, certainly can not fill the "demand" of the public for purebred dogs; ergo we have all the puppymills, the bybers, the Oh I just want to breed my pet cause all females need at least one litter, etc etc.

The problem is as I see it, we have no, as of yet, middle ground. Can there be some middle ground?

A ground that all purebred fanciers can adhere to. A ground that says ALL responsible breeders do ALL the prebreeding tests the temperament evaluations, and some sort of examination of breeding dogs for assessment to standard, prior to them being allowed to bred this bitch to that stud?

Not sure I know the answer, but there sure are a lot of questions.

[yorkie-gems]

I truly dislike having to defend myself to perfect strangers, just as much as anyone else. I am not here to be ridiculed, or brow beaten. I came to this forum for information on a blue born. I found that, and a couple of nice ladies to chat with too.

gemy,
first and foremost... a breeder does not have to be registered, to sell registered dogs. I am not a registered breeder myself. I am owned by registered dogs, that come from reputable registered breeders.
There for, I do not 'HAVE' to follow any of the registrations rules. None of them!
I 'CHOOSE' to follow most of their rules, and guidelines, because I want the respect of my community, and peers.
Why would I do this? Because I CHOOSE to be an ethical hobby breeder, that is not contributing to the mess of the gene pool. I leave trying to perfect the breed to those who want to do so, and get my foundation stock from them. I go to great lengths, and pay the high prices for my dogs. I take great pride in finding the perfect mates, and go out of my way to keep true to the breed.
I respect what the show breeders are doing, and I do all I can, not to contribute to the mess that the unscrupulous byb and mills are causing.
secondly; I put prospective adopting parents through a full screening process, and the pups are sold as unregistered pets, with strict spay/neuter contracts. No puppy leaves our home without us meeting the family in person, and I do not ship. I would like to think I'm a fairly good judge of character, but I don't rely on that alone. Now if someone were to get past all of this, and choose to breed anyway... then I don't see how this is any longer my concern. Just like you, I cannot control what they do once they leave. However they won't be able to register the pups, and there for I've at least kept them out of the registry, and show rings.
I have done all I can, to protect the registered breeders, and what they are striving to do for the breed. I have very strong ethics, and do not take what I am doing lightly. I am fine with getting less money for my unregistered pups, just to protect the breed from further genetic issues. I see this as being honest, and fair?
This particular litter will be sold in the exact same manner as all of my others, however I'll be offering money back to those who neuter this time. Just as an added incentive.
Aside from holding their hand, or keeping the pups until 6 months, and old enough to do it myself... I truly don't see how I can be expected to do any more.

[yorkie-gems]

gemy,
You have the right to YOUR personal opinions, but I ask that you keep those to yourself. Or start your own thread. If you wish to contribute something useful regarding this puppy, please feel free. Otherwise mind your manners, and your own business please. Thanks!

[gemy]

Originally Posted by yorkie-gems

gemy,
You have the right to YOUR personal opinions, but I ask that you keep those to yourself. Or start your own thread. If you wish to contribute something useful regarding this puppy, please feel free. Otherwise mind your manners, and your own business please. Thanks!

To which I say; you can not control who posts on your thread. I provided this thread information on blueborns, as well as the registration requirements of CKC.