blue/silver born yorkie

[rekiyamb280]

hi to all...
I have two females and one male yorkshires that I breed... been doing it for about 3 years. last night my female had 3 pups. 2 girls and 1 boy. the boy is gray/silver. I IMMEDIATELY started searching the web bc I know the puppies are supposed to be born black. the majority if he's things I read were sooooo negative and demeaning towards the breeder. which I feel is wrong. I found it offensive bc I love my dogs dearly and I take excellent care of them.
it was said that the color is,a recessive gene that can be in either if the parents that gets passed down to the puppy. I absolutely didn't do this on purpose. so I don't know which parent had it. my dam is blue/gold ( she had the traditional silver but her tan has a hue/hint if red- which I call gold) and my sire is blue/tan.
this was sooo unexpected.
some blogs say that the pup will not live past a couple of days, when their color is supposed to change they go totally bald, and have skin issues, blindness... And the bad bad lists goes on. but then I saw some pictures of older blue born pups. they, are not bald, nor blind. but most of them have razor/buz cuts bc the users say their hair doesn't really grow long especially, around the ears.
I also read that there's is two different types of blue borns.
at the end of the day... Im concerned about this little pup and his quality if life. I want to give him a chance.. but then I also don't want to set this pup up food pain and suffering later.
if anyone has a blue/ silver pup or adult dog that can shed some light ot info .. would be helpful.
thanks in advance.
kiya

[Marhcarter]

KendraE has a beautiful blueborn named Mack. He has done very well and is quite healthy. I recommend looking at her threads. I also know the general consensus is to have both Dam and Sire fixed to prevent passing along this recessive gene to future litters. And welcome to YT!
Here is one of her threads:
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...e-yorkies.html

[Marhcarter]

Would love to see pics of the entire litter. Hope your blue and the rest of the pups are doing well. Post updates when you can.

[chachi]

There is only one type of blue born and yes they can have some of the terrible problems you have read about or they could be okay but have trouble growing hair time will tell. You need to spay and neuter your dam and sire that passed this on I have read both have to have the gene to pass it on. Its not your fault what happened but you do have a responsibility to make sure it doesnt happen again

[msyorktown]

Originally Posted by Marhcarter

KendraE has a beautiful blueborn named Mack. He has done very well and is quite healthy. I recommend looking at her threads. I also know the general consensus is to have both Dam and Sire fixed to prevent passing along this recessive gene to future litters. And welcome to YT!
Here is one of her threads:
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...e-yorkies.html

My sentiments exactly...hope this helps.
As another poster has said, both dam and sire should be neutered and spayed to prevent this from happening again. Welcome to YT!

[navillusc]

The recessive gene that results in a blue born Yorkie pup must be passed to offspring by both parents to express. It is also possible that all the pups you have bred from that sire and/or dam are 'carriers' of the gene. Both sire and dam of that litter must be altered and not bred again to prevent creating carrier pups as well as avoid breeding another blue born pup. You might want to re-visit the lines you were breeding, including your second bitch, if you are concerned she might be a carrier herself as well. Do check out KendraE's posts...she is very knowledgeable. I am sorry, and I hope your little blue does well. I would like to see pix...

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by chachi

There is only one type of blue born and yes they can have some of the terrible problems you have read about or they could be okay but have trouble growing hair time will tell. You need to spay and neuter your dam and sire that passed this on I have read both have to have the gene to pass it on. Its not your fault what happened but you do have a responsibility to make sure it doesnt happen again

This is one of those things back there in the pedigree, that, when you paired these two dogs together, combined in their pedigree, contained the "ingredients" needed to produce that baby. If you do not know your pedigrees well enough to know who back there, on both the dam and the sire, is carrying that recessive gene, then you need to spay/neuter both dogs. If you DO know who is responsible in BOTH pedigrees, for carrying the recessive gene, and you can study future pedigrees to be sure you do not cross either of these dogs with another dog that carries the recessive gene, then you can continue to breed these dogs, just NOT to each other again, or to another dog that also carries the recessive gene. It requires a ton of study and research....it may just be more prudent to spay/neuter both dogs. This is a genetic fault you do not want to pass along to the future lineage of the breed.

[Marhcarter]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

This is one of those things back there in the pedigree, that, when you paired these two dogs together, combined in their pedigree, contained the "ingredients" needed to produce that baby. If you do not know your pedigrees well enough to know who back there, on both the dam and the sire, is carrying that recessive gene, then you need to spay/neuter both dogs. If you DO know who is responsible in BOTH pedigrees, for carrying the recessive gene, and you can study future pedigrees to be sure you do not cross either of these dogs with another dog that carries the recessive gene, then you can continue to breed these dogs, just NOT to each other again, or to another dog that also carries the recessive gene. It requires a ton of study and research....it may just be more prudent to spay/neuter both dogs. This is a genetic fault you do not want to pass along to the future lineage of the breed.

Curious: is there a dna test specifically for this gene? Or has anyone even isolated it? I would guess there aren't a lot of research grants for this when they are still trying to isolate the gene for liver shunt...
If there is no history of a blue born on either side back several generations, spaying/neutering both would be the best solution? I would think it possible that this gene could be carried for many generations without exhibiting itself. I wonder if the (seeming) increase in the number of blue borns is because more people are starting to breed the off colors instead of having them sterilized. Just thinking out loud here...

[Yorkiemom1]

I have never investigated this, because it is not something I have to worry with. Either one of this breeding pair, could be bred with another dog, and as long as the other dog is not also a carrier, neither dog will produce another blue born. If her breeding pair comes from very well known lines, and she paid probably $3500.00 or more, for each dog, then it may be worth her time and energy to get educated on genotyping and carriers for this recessive gene, and pedigrees for at least 12 generations back....but less than those circumstances, I would suggest she have both dogs fixed. To your question about this gene ever been isolated....like I said, I do not know simply because I have not had reason to get into that....I do think it is because there are more and more carriers being produced, then sold to people that are then turning around and breeding those dogs, not even aware of their dogs having this in their pedigree....producing more and more carriers, being sold and bred, and the beat goes on...........
The really wonderful thing about having breeding pairs that come from long, established, proven lines, like Wildweir, Windamere, Clarkwyn, Durrer, Pastoral, Rothby....these are a few of the greats, you have a history behind these dogs....if you do have a litter that has a pup with an issue, you can drill down into these dogs pedigrees, and you can much easier pinpoint what you can not cross again. When breeding dogs whose pedigrees have no history, you dont have a clue what is behind the dogs on the pedigrees....this is why we are getting so many faults and genetic issues....unable to track a history of an established proven pedigree, so there is no idea who is carrying what and who you can not cross with whom.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by navillusc

The recessive gene that results in a blue born Yorkie pup must be passed to offspring by both parents to express. It is also possible that all the pups you have bred from that sire and/or dam are 'carriers' of the gene. Both sire and dam of that litter must be altered and not bred again to prevent creating carrier pups as well as avoid breeding another blue born pup. You might want to re-visit the lines you were breeding, including your second bitch, if you are concerned she might be a carrier herself as well. Do check out KendraE's posts...she is very knowledgeable. I am sorry, and I hope your little blue does well. I would like to see pix...

Hi, as a geneticist by profession, I concur with your analysis 100%! Both parents of the blue yorkie had to be carriers of the gene, and both will have to be fixed to keep from spreading the gene to the offspring and creating more carriers (one copy of the mutant gene) and blue yorkies (two copies of the mutant gene). BTW, on average, if you cross two carriers of a recessive mutation, half of the offspring will also be carriers, and one out of four will express the mutation (blue yorkie, in this case). There are exceptions to the rule (for example a spontaneous mutation occurring in a single sperm or egg cell), but they are rare.

[gemy]

The other point is if previous litters have not all been sold on a spay and neuter contract, then she must notify the owners of any breeding dog what has occurred.

All this pedigree research is very important, and that is why we almost always say work with a mentor. And may I say, look for a very experienced mentor, and one that is a true expert in her breed. They are rare, not too many left, and are pretty selective with whom they mentor.

It makes it a whole lot simpler, to get to the know that mentors lines and the health issues of them. And they might even have a database that they can let your borrow, as you begin your own breeding.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Hi, as a geneticist by profession, I concur with your analysis 100%! Both parents of the blue yorkie had to be carriers of the gene, and both will have to be fixed to keep from spreading the gene to the offspring and creating more carriers (one copy of the mutant gene) and blue yorkies (two copies of the mutant gene). BTW, on average, if you cross two carriers of a recessive mutation, half of the offspring will also be carriers, and one out of four will express the mutation (blue yorkie, in this case). There are exceptions to the rule (for example a spontaneous mutation occurring in a single sperm or egg cell), but they are rare.

Oh boy lass, a real live expert. I have a question if we can determine/type color, at least can with the BRT's to try to make sure we don't throwback a brown or golden or grey BRT - are breed is quite young. So I would have thought something similar for the blue born might be able to be done? Or at least we could get closer to a genetic test.

What are your thoughts on this?

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by gemy

Oh boy lass, a real live expert. I have a question if we can determine/type color, at least can with the BRT's to try to make sure we don't throwback a brown or golden or grey BRT - are breed is quite young. So I would have thought something similar for the blue born might be able to be done? Or at least we could get closer to a genetic test.

What are your thoughts on this?

We are getting close a commercial DNA test to detect genes that are associated with liver shunt problems--that is something that affects several breeds of small dogs, so it's easier and more commercially viable. Traits that affect a single breed, or which don't have as serious a health consequence, will have lower priority and come further down the line--in the case of something as rare as a Blue Yorkie, it could be a few years away, and a more expensive test. I've been doing some searching, and there are all different kinds of answers about the health effects of having a Blue Yorkie. Some say that it only affects hair color. Others say it leads to premature baldness, leathery skin, and premature death. Most breeders never see a Blue Yorkie in their lifetime, so a lot of this information is anecdotal. I hope the OP posts photos and keeps us informed about the health of her blue born as time goes by. And when I get back to work where I have access to our library's computers and scholarly literature, I'll try to find a more definitive answer and post another reply if I do.

[navillusc]

Originally Posted by pstinard

We are getting close a commercial DNA test to detect genes that are associated with liver shunt problems--that is something that affects several breeds of small dogs, so it's easier and more commercially viable. Traits that affect a single breed, or which don't have as serious a health consequence, will have lower priority and come further down the line--in the case of something as rare as a Blue Yorkie, it could be a few years away, and a more expensive test. I've been doing some searching, and there are all different kinds of answers about the health effects of having a Blue Yorkie. Some say that it only affects hair color. Others say it leads to premature baldness, leathery skin, and premature death. Most breeders never see a Blue Yorkie in their lifetime, so a lot of this information is anecdotal. I hope the OP posts photos and keeps us informed about the health of her blue born as time goes by. And when I get back to work where I have access to our library's computers and scholarly literature, I'll try to find a more definitive answer and post another reply if I do.

I would be interested in reading whatever you find...but, you probably already guessed that. lol I think it is wonderful that you are here on YT to comment on such things. Thank you.

[Marhcarter]

Originally Posted by navillusc

I would be interested in reading whatever you find...but, you probably already guessed that. lol I think it is wonderful that you are here on YT to comment on such things. Thank you.

Me, too! As a nurse, I'm always interested in medical advancements, both human and yorkie/dog alike. Genetic mutations have always interested me (like the blue Fugates of Ky...not to be confused with blue yorkies!) I know there is currently a study on liver shunt being conducted at Cornell. Looking forward to any info you come up with.