Disagree, While I am still a newby to Conformation, these Judges do not play games. I have learned so much and Jeanie you and Debbie can too. 99% of the excibitors are wonderful people who care so much about keeping the breed pure. There is no way to tell if you have a champion out of a litter until maybe 20 months. They may get one champion out of 10 pups. The rest are placed in Good pet homes. And I mean Placed. Nothing compared to the prices I have seen on some sites. Sure you will always have a bad apple in every bunch but for the most part they are very very caring that know their lines. Matter of fact there was a lady that was a YT member here a while back and she now has a top 10 Yorkie in the US. Havoc...She learned and studied and is a GREAT exhibitor and handler....

I have a question...maybe a naive one; if it's naive, I apologize....you guys should know by now that genetics is not my strong point. :p

Some posters have mentioned how there are no genetic defects tied to "color" except w/ Chocolates. I thought that there had been discussion (ahem, quite "lively" discussion) as to whether or not parti colored dogs in general (not just yorkie, but partis in other breeds as well) could have genetic related issues that are related to the gene which causes the parti color. Was it blindness maybe...? Does anyone know what I'm trying to recall w/ this? It's fuzzy...so I can't remember the details.

Were those genetic relationships proven categorically false? Bc I can't recall if/when the issue really had a conclusion.

:thumbup:

I believe it may have been deafness and yes it is linked to dogs carrying the piebald gene. Most notably is dalamations.
I am not aware that of any biewers who are affected nor as an issue within our dogs. Best you can do is have the dogs Baer tested.
Some more info.
Genetics of Deafness in Dogs

Odd I am in the show rings and know many AKC show breeders. I don't see tons of crappy breeders with bad health. NOt sure which shows or where you might be talking aobut and if yours aren't shown why are you at shows or are you? Curious phenomena.
Actually chocolates can have health issues and often do.
Color test for dilute gene? Really? Never heard of that one.
I am sure there will be some people looking for wrong colour, rare whatever, or very undersized. In my considerable experience I am not usually too interested in interviewing to any extent these kind of pet owners. My preference is someone looking for a nice Yorkie who knows something about Yorkies or are more than willing to learn.

Well I will you tell...Diana and I have different opinions, we have debated them often...that being said...she is no where what you just described.

Yes, there are tests available to determine what color coat gene a dog may carry. Actually color coat testing has been the most widely determined in ANY breed.

Man it is like racism in the yorkie world, lol!!

Why is color so offensive? And to make a claim that the only reason someone breeds for an off color is for monetary gain is hasty rationalization and ridiculous. Does color equal money? Do you know every breeder's objective?
Many truly love the different colors (I know I do) and they are breeding because they love that look, not for monetary gain. Many breeders have a certain look in mind for the yorkie. Many reputable breeders breed for certain traits that differ from one another. One might like an ear set better than an another's for example. They are small variations but do they get condemned for liking that certain look and breeding for it? You can go to a show and see all the little variations breeders are breeding for. Some judges like a certain look while other judges like a different look. If we all liked the same exact thing, only that yorkie would be in the show ring and all the judges would judge the same and choose the same dog but we know that doesn't happen.
Color is no different. It is a certain look some breeders like but just because it deals with color, they get condemned for it, even if the yorkie is standard in every other way.

Why do some breeders automatically assume that since the breeder is breeding off color dogs that they are concerned about health and genetics? What proof is there to show that this true? A different color such as parti does not mean the breeder doesn't care about health but yet many of you have stated that. So where's the proof? If you want to make the claim that breeders who are breeding chocolates, goldens or partis don't care about the health or standard you need to back up that claim with evidence. And unless you personally know their breeding program, you can't.

I have seen many so called "reputable" show breeders who breed gorgeous dogs but pay little attention to health. Breeding by standard, and showing by the standard doesn't mean that breeder looked into the health and genetics but it is being assumed so.

Health should ALWAYS come before color or standard.

Oh and to say no genetic testing is needed because you know your lines so well is incredibly naive to me. If you aren't testing, you can't know your dog's genetic mapping. You can only assume so. Your dog could carry LS and just because you haven't ever had a pup in the line with it, doesn't mean it isn't there. Can you honestly say you know everything about your dog's genes, inside and out, especially saying you didn't do any testing? Just using LS as an example but it can apply to many things such as color and other genetic diseases or abnormalities. If we knew all of this we would have a completely healthy breed as we could find and eliminate all those diseases. There is so much we don't know about genetics.

I love all the yorkies whether they are black, blue, white, gold or chocolate. They are all beautiful wonderful yorkies.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Thanks Deb! :)

-Diana :animal-pa

Thanks for sharing. We all have opinions! :D

Might also add that if you have a good Breeder, that has studied her lines

from the begining there is no need to test for the gene. REPUTABLE

BREEDERS know their Breeding stock and can go back for many many many

many generations. They study their structure,color, movement, coat and if

any have a genetic defect, they will STOP the breeding of that line

I can speak from 1st hand experience and tell you that YES, this IS a problem with Biewers--at least with mine. I tell her all the time to stop licking my face and she doesn't listen. I tell her that I didn't make the bed up just for her to nap on and she doesn't listen. I tell her she's not getting any more treats and she follows me around the kitchen anyway. I have therefore drawn the conclusion that clearly she is deaf. :D

The sad thing is that just last night we finally discovered/admitted that our 7 month old Biewer is most definitely deaf, so to me this isn't all that funny.

I had no idea, which makes me feel 100x worse than I do, but she follows our Yorkie around so it was hard to figure out. There have been many signs but I just was in some sort of denial. We finally figured it out last night as she was standing there staring at us yet again, I swear she reads lips...anyways we have an appointment @ 6:30 this evening... will keep you posted...:confused:

Im sorry I hope you get some answers. How old is she?

She is 7mos. old and really until my husband last night loudly said to me "you do know she's deaf right?, stop raising your voice to her" I looked at him and he was dead serious, he couldn't believe that I didn't think it, but the second he said it, it was like a huge puzzle was completed...of course I was balling my eyes out...but it was like YES I DID KNOW BUT WHY DIDN'T I SAY I KNOW???? Remind me when my son was a baby and he had a foot problem that everyone noticed but me....needless to say I was a basket case back then....now I pretty much feel the same way...anyway this is off topic so I will start a new thread after the VETS tonight....It was so damn obvious, but with the heart problems etc., I think I just blocked it out.....

I read that deafness could be associated with the pie bald gene but I didnt think it could affect a dog so young. i thought if it happened it would happen later in life Im sorry. This is the first Ive heard of it on here

I will be honest here, other than what I know from learning and researching on here, up until a few months ago I didn't even realize I had a Biewer as I never heard of it or if she was a Parti, it was from YT that I figured it out, her papers are in German (another duh). My getting her was not planned, it was one of those things, it was pure happenstance...greatfully!

I don't know anything about the PieBald etc. I'm sure when I have a firm diagnosis I will be eager to learn about it...right now, the only thing I care about is my MissMia! As you may remember, she is also being monitored for heart condition...blah, blah, blah....

Yes I remember about the heart problems. I thik the biewers are lovely Ive always wanted one

I have some information I'd like to share with you when you start your thread.

You give your puppy a snuggle from me.

I started the thread and would truly appreciate any and all information. I just talked to my husband and hes laughing at me:mad:...he's questioning why I'm so upset and nervous because I've been handling it right along just fine...uggghhhh, not what I want to hear right now.

In between working I'm trying to read as much as possible...my concerns are: is there anything else I should be looking in to with her health at this point? also, shoud I find a specialist for this? Not to concerned what caused it more concerned about how they will figure out what caused it and if there is underlying condition. I think the shock of it all is whats driving me right now...so many things I knew but didn't etc., lots of things going thru my head...like when I leave in the morning she howls a weird howling tone...she doesn't stop until she feels the vibrations of the garage door closing (assuming here), she never hears me when I come home if I don't park in the garage...she startles quickly and the whole bathtub thing...lots of thoughts here...

ok back on topic! sorry for Highjacking the thread, yet again...I have a thread in sick and injured...THANK YOU...

I was just trying to add some humor to the thread. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. *Hopefully* the majority who read my comment took it as the joke it was intended to be. I'm sorry to hear about your little one. I hope your vet is able to shed some light on the situation for you.

I love the sable gold yorkies! They are beautiful. I havent heard of any health issues with them. I am aware of the extreme piebalds and believe they should not be bred. But to say a parti is not healthy is a ridiculous, ubsurd accusation. Sorry, YTCA will never convince me of that.

I knew you were joking and thought it was funny. It sounded like my world. LOL

I'd like to chime in on some of this conversation. On a number of different points.

A standard is a standard, most especially with the dogs of ancient/older lineage, because it has been proven true and beneficial for ALL aspects of the dogs over time. This is the fundamental, truly very important point to me.

Now as science has developed and matured, some aspects such as genetics, and testings have evolved, and have created a broader expanse of knowledge. There are truly very few true "genetic tests for any breed". For sure there is NO GENETIC TEST for Liver Shunt. That is being worked on diligently. There is a genetic test for deafeness in at least one breed, there IS a genetic test for hyperuricosuria, and a couple of other genetic tests, including one that provides the color coding. YT's are not the only breed that needs this, so does my Breed that I breed.
And pardon my difference of opinion, I do like to KNOW, especially if there is a reliable test. I won't count just on history or knowledge of past lines, if the test is there I will do it!. So to say you "know" the lineage, is more accurately you have studied and have word of mouth, some spotty reliable documented health results; and you've done your best to arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can. And just remember Breeders, all those pet dogs you placed in homes, traditionally have had no documented health tests posted!.

Breed enthusiasts DO NOT BREED off color dogs indiscriminately. For some very sound reasons. Most of the health lineage, and DOCUMENTED health testings, are about the purebred IN STANDARD dog, and that includes color. We too have our Silvers, our Browns, our Greys, in a Black Russian Terrier. That Black is the ONLY acceptable color in the ring. Any other color is an automatic disqualification.

In terms of Judging. I'm sorry to disagree with at least one poster here. But there are definitely Face judges and Dog judges. Face judging means the judge is more inclined to award the ribbon to the "handler" he/she knows, often times the professional handler. There are stats and facts to support this... ummm I think it was info dog that posted some illuminating stats. Dog Judges, don't care who handles the dog, and just looks at the dog. And then there are the Judges that "prefer" a certain look or size, and if you have a dog that doesn't meet that criteria there is little point in showing under them. There are Movement Judges, and Coat Judges, and Face Judges (ie disproportionately weigh a good head, and ignore some obvious major flaws). There are judges who judge all over the place. ONe day placing this dog "type" over that etc.
There are also something called Judging Seminars, where judges are trained to "learn about a specific breed". Who teaches these judges? Well the well known respected breeders do, and is organized through the National Clubs of that breed. I am the Chair of the Education Committee for my breed, and I conduct those seminars.
This is a very important influence on How Judges will Judge your dog. This informaton should be available to every member of the Breed Club. Trust me our internal discussions can get quite heated at times.

This does not mean dog judging is a morass of pointlessness. It does mean,as it is conducted by people, with human exhibitors and dogs competing, that there is a complex set of relationships, and opinions set in a very competitive environment. It is not perfect, but it is what we have to work with. As I have written before, the offside ring sharing, mentoring and evaluating is priceless.

I do believe in transparency; which is why I encourage All Breeders, to get the Health Testings done, and to get them posted on the various relevant health sites. If you do the testing, then post it!

I'm sure most people took it in the spirit in which it was offered.. no harm, no foul.. what you wrote was very cute.. (and very much like my house too!)

-Diana :animal-pa

I agree.. as in anything, you need to know what's going in to know what's going to come out! Just because the Piebald gene is at work, does not mean you can not control to some degree the amount of color produced in your offspring. The German line of the tri colored yorkie (Biewers) were originally developed to have more of an Irish spotting pattern, rather than the random spotting pattern normally associated with the Piebald gene.. You can breed FOR that pattern.

One would want to breed AWAY from the extreme Piebald pattern, which COULD have issues related to deafness. If you look at the standard for the Parti Yorkie, you will see that it requires color around the eyes and the ears.
There are any number of breeds that have the piebald gene.. to say it is not healthy is just lack of education.

-Diana :animal-pa

Well, as I seen your posts You are calling people "unethical" ,as they are breeding yorkies with a different color. My uncle is a small breed specialist surger. My dad is a vet. Plenty of dogs who came from show breeders must have surgeries ,as they are having such bad legs , includng Patella luxation ,and Phertes. I am only having one question for You.Why so many show lines are having genetically bad legs?? U are writeing down so many times "ethics", do U know who is Jeremy Bentham ? My personal opinion is
COLOR DOES NOT HURT.
Bad legs does. If a puppy comes from a showbreeder that is not automatically a guarantee that it will be healtier .(FACT that thoose puppies exteriour is nicer.) Also do U think this is a right way to fight a "war", why dont U try to do something officially thrue AKC ?Or this method works better? U are writeing down so many times that U are working to better the breed as the rest of the show yorkies.Than why no health checks are done by the local clubs ? I am not doubting that your yorkies are beautyfull, and very healthy and perfect . I am only saying as a fact that show yorkies are having generally problems with their legs!

[QUOTE=manolos mom;3945289]The Chocolate color can be registered...it just isn't correct, and shouldn't be bred. The AKC is not denying that the color exists -- they will register it.

It simply denotes poor pigmentation.

You will likely find "tons of" all over the internet, crappy breeders breeding the color on purpose out of AKC registered dogs. These breeders are ignoring health, temperament, and type in favor of producing a "rare" color that they can charge more for.

If color is more important to you than health and temperament, buy from one of these people. If, however, getting a well-bred, healthy Yorkie is more important, buy from a YTCA-member breeder.

You are mentioning "ethics".I would like to ask You :How come that a breed what is so popular ,has generally problems with its leg?? My uncle is a specialist for small breed dogs (surger) ,my dad has a vet clinic.Yearly he has plenty of show dogs under his scalpel.... . I think color does not hurt .Patella luxation and Phertes does. Thoose are genetic problems too.
COLOR DOES NOT HURT . BAD LEGS DOES .
If show breeders are ethical,than why is such painfull problems present in the breed ??If they would be doing the right selecting than we wouldnt be forced to face that problem.
Why AKC does not requires health,and leg checks? And yes yorkshire terrier should be a profiled breed!
Also I have seen homes of show breeders. Very nice dogs. But many of them kept in crates..... Retired dogs donated.....Is that normal ??? THAT is cruel I think . "Kicking out the oldies"-is that ethical ??

Color does not hurt . If all show breeders would be ethical ,perthes and patella luxation wouldnt be present as a general problem .