Kim ...SoCalyorkiLvr.....I can't believe what I'm reading - ....doesn't it BOTHER you at all that TINY yorkies are being intentionally bred ? Can you just imagine how they must feel being that small with babies inside... only to have to be cut open to have safe deliveries ? I really REALLY thought this thread would open up some eyes... but I can see it didn't :(

I just can't see bragging about some vet who is breeding tinies is doing any good here. I give up....No offense to you - but please be careful what you're posting on the net - talking about NOT spaying and breeding tinies is pretty extreme and many people read these threads..... and I think it really sends the WRONG signals to see posts like I just saw here.

Try reading the first post again.

What kind of vet breeds tiny females??? How many vets dont do this and advise against it. I think it is clear who are experts and who are not. That vet is just out to make money just like the breeders who breed tinies. I dont need a Therigenologist to tell me what is right and what is wrong. There are enough qualified opinions from ethical breeders and vets.

Kim.....I don't need an answer - sorry - I guess I was hoping hearing from someone that just went thru a hard time with her TINY mom would sink in that is is just not right to breed tinies... but I have to respect feelings here... I should never have expected one thread to change anyones opinion...

I do wish I didn't see so many posts saying it's ok... because I just feel it is NOT....and Vets breeding tinies is NOT something I agree with either - I don't care how far back they susposedly went...It's just unfair to all those poor yorkies.

GREAT POST Chachi...less words than me and well said

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Well, besides that obviously, all of the necessary tests are done ahead of time, the mom is well cared for before, during and after the gestations and there is a doctor whelping!! That's pretty cool if you ask me. Those mommies and babies are in the hands of trained professionals at all times. I wish that for all the yorkie mommies and babies out there.

I have been asking this question for a long time. Do you know the answer?

Well, I called all three of my vets...yes, I use 3 :rolleyes: ...and each one advised against breeding tinies.

I'll give you MY answer too and I'll provide phone numbers if you really want to be a pain about this - I've talked to 2 vets - Chanel & Cheri's.... and Tessa's when I refilled her ear prescription ....

I've asked their feelings about breeding tiny yorkies. They both came back with NO ....One said he didn't think it was safe for under 4-5 lbs and the other said no WAY under 4.

Chanel & Cheri's vet is VERY well known and respected in Sugar Land TX. HE has always tried to talk me into breeding Chanel because of her size and looks - so he and I have had numerous discussions over breeding and yes - I have asked him how he would feel if she weighed under 4 lbs.... and he said he would advise his clients NOT to do this.

What kind of proof do you need for something that is just common sense ? I would hope you were more compassionate than what I keep reading....

Kim in a previous post that I quoted you on you stated breeders who are vets- Please give us some names and numbers. We would love to talk with these vets. I think there are others who share this same thought. You keep talking about these mystry people who hide in the shadows and provide you this wealth of information. There are a lot of us out here who I am sure would also like to be enlightened as you are about breeding. Wow I must have been in a complete fog the last thirty years.

The Vet that I use is associated with the Purdue School of Vet. Medicine. Purdue is one of the leading vet schools in the United States and is located about an hour from my home. My vet provides intership for vet students at his clinic that is located about 10 minutes from my home. It features a large and small animal clinic of which I have used both with great results.

I have talked to my vet about it and he advises against it too.

The breeders who care & love yorkies don't do it....The breeders with Ethics don't do it. Line up 20 breeders here on this site and I think we all know what they would say....it's CRUEL & Dangerous to breed a tiny female. PERIOD

hmmmmm...got an idea! :rolleyes: keep watching! :eek:

OK Kim now that youve painted yourself in a corner...I would call this put up or shut up time.!!

You have an opportunity to redeem yourself, post names and numbers of the breeders that sell these tinies to vets, as well as, the vets that breed them in good conscience.

I have two vets a reproductive specialist which would shoot me if I brought him a gal 4lbs or under and another that would use me for target practice!!

It is funny how trained professionals lack common sense, kindness and care for the tiny that they are breeding. Funny, you woulf think a VET would know better..If these Vets exist, I bet you they also sell to puppy mills..

Some vets or long time breeders end up thinking that they're experts in the subject and can do anything they want. I really think it's pig-headed to go against the norm and risk the outcome. I know it sounds harsh, but someone has to speak for those little girls.

Kathy~ Please refer to my last post. I reposted it above) What is your esteemed vet's name and phone number?

I have clearly stated time and time again that I consider breeding yorkie females to be too risky for my pets and would never do it. All I have been attempting to do is to find credible evidence as to what is the "acceptable size limit" if there is one among the "experts" and the reasons why they consider the limit to be what they say it to be. I have been pretty well convinced that any female under 4 lbs is not a good candidate for breeding.

The defintition of a tiny that I have heard most frequently is anything under 5 lbs, therefore the vets you have referred to seem to think that breeding tinies is okay as long as they are not under 4 lbs.

This is actually what I said was my opinion in my post on a thread yesterday...."As for breeding tiny females, after all I have learned recently, I think I would set the size limit at 4 lbs and that would only be if the dog was wide in the torso and was tested fit for pregnancy and was cared for throughout by a reproductive specialist, not just a general vet"http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...497#post318497

Villette~I didn't now I was "really being a pain about this" as I was not the one asking for names and phone numbers...it was wnalegria.

This thread did not change my mind because I would never breed a tiny and wouldn't advise anyone else to either, but I don't like to spread misinformation. I like to have reasons and know what they are...it helps people understand if you explain a logical rationale. If it is possible under some circumstances to breed females smaller than 5 lbs safely then to say breeding tinies is "cruel", "sick", bad, disreputable, only done by people who are in it for the money, will ALWAYS lead to a c-section or a ruptured uterus and the other horrible things that have been said about it are not true and we shouldn't continue the misinformation.

An analogy would be your assertion that all Pet Stores who sell puppies are BAD....when we know for a fact that is not true. Quality Canines in New York as well as many other small mom and pop stores around the country are reputable.

I think your statement would have more credibility with people in general if you said "All Pet Stores who get their puppies from puppymills are BAD".

Do you see my point? It is not that I think it is OKAY TO BREED TINIES or that I don't care about the poor little females, it's that I do not want to spread rumors and lose credibility when I cannot support it with credible evidence from experts with a valid rationale. I was withholding my opinion until I felt I had researched the matter fairly thoroughly and now i believe as your vet does...that it is probably too risky to the life of the mother and the puppies to breed a female yorkie under 4 lbs.

Most people on here had never heard of a canine theriogenolist until I discovered it in my research. The word was never used as far as I know on this forum before that. This is a learning process and I change my opinions as I learn more just as others do.

My only question is...why do you constantly defend the breeders that do breed their small bitches? You've done it time and time again here. You say that you don't condone it but yet if someone comes on here and says they breed for tinies, you defend them wholeheartedly. Sorry, but it makes NO sense to me!

Kim do you think Ava is a well bred, high quality, breed standard Yorkie?

I would defend them just as I would defend you if you were wrongly attacked. You are a breeder and I don't see how you breed your baby but I try not to judge you negatively for it. Whether or not to breed, period, and then if you breed, what size is okay to breed, are basically opinions, there is no real hard and fast "rule". There are plenty of breeders on here and elsewhere who have had better luck with free whelping than a lot of the breeders on here who breed nothing under 5 lbs, so I am merely defending them from warrantless attacks simply for having a different opinion.

I certainly wpuldn't call them names and say they don't love their dogs or they are only in it for the money, any more than I would say that to you because you breed.

This is to all of the breeders on here who do not show, not just Kimberley: Here is the question I have never had the guts to ask but if you do not show, you breed for pets only and you lose money on every litter then why breed your precious girl?

Kim, here is a reply you made to yorksrule...who everyone knows breeds bitches under 4 lbs.

You should be very proud of your breeding program and your babies are adorable.

Not according to show standards but she is "perfect" to me and everything and more than I was looking for. Her breeder has a great reputation and has been breeding her "look" for over thirty years. There is NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT BREEDER and Ava's was not but she cares for her dogs and she is a good breeder. She does not breed teeny tiny yorkies and sold me Ava becuase she was too small to breed.

Why do you ask?

Yes, and I meant every word...there is nothing inconsistent in that and what i am stating here to night. She should be proud and not listen to the people trying to tear her down. She cares about her babies and it is obvious. Reread my post #19 here.

She has every right to her opinion. I don't agree with you docking those little babies tails but I don't attack you personally for it and call you horrible names. I try to point out the most humane way to accomplish it since you feel you must.

Kim here is your quote" It is also not true that you have to line breed to do this. The breeders (some of whom are vets) I know who breed for tinies do not line breed. " This is your words not mine I simply ask who are these vets that breed for tinies. We would like to know more. I sure would. It would make an enlightening experience for breeders like myself who I guess after thirty years don't know sqaut. These breeder/vets that you are talking about can help me see the light of day. So once again who are they and where are they located. Maybe we could pay one of them to come online and explain this to us. It would be very rewarding.

If you do not line breed or inbreed how do you make a gene dominat to produce these small yorkies. This is a new one to me. I have to know more about how to do this- do I use a magic wand or pixie dust or is it just abracadabra.

The Vet that I use is the Janssen Vet Clinic in Sheridan Indiana 317-758-4865. Vets at the office show and raise large and small animals. I am not afraid to put up or shut up.

I don't think she cares about them that much. According to her old posts she has 6 females, she doesn't raise them underfoot, but wanted to put each one inside of a small run :thumbdown I believe that anyone who loves their yorkie wouldn't put such a tiny girl through that over and over again.

lol at pixie comment. Yeah, I remember learning about genetics in school. An animal can have recessive genes from way back. A small dog doesn't mean it will have small puppies, even generations unless it has (DD) dominate genes. It can have Dr which means that it can show the trait, but still have the ressesive trait.

I need some of the pixie dust too. Perhaps Kim is living in Peter Pan world!

Exactly...here are some of her other posts...

you don't have runs in your house...they're OUTSIDE! I don't care if there is a building involved. What kind of one on one attention do they get? How often do they get loved on?????

Pass some of that magic to me! I sure could use some!

My older sister and mom are going to Disney World next week. I'll see if they can get some pixie dust from Tink when they see her.

If she is all out, I'll see if I can get some from our Disney Cruise at the end of February. Between Michelle, Courtney and I, one of us should be able to convince Tink to share a little with us to send to our yorkie breeder friends!

I have seen the light- I am going to a magic store and this is what I am going to give to all of my friends here on YT magic wands. I will see if I can get Harry Potter to come and explain how to use them. If I am real lucky maybe I can find a genie in a bottle. Only three wishes with that one. HMMM I know what the first one would be. But then things could get boring around here.