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Congrats ! Iam so sorry your Baby had to go through so much pain, how sad , but glad it turned out well. I wanted Rosi to have a litter, but promised my vet from the beginning that if she didn weigh at least 4 1/2 -5 pounds by the time she was 6 mo old i would spay her. Well at 7 mo. she was 3.88 so i took her in and had her spayed ! Big Kisses for Momma ! |
Thanks for sharing with us. I know how hard it is to go through an uneventful delivery I couldn't imagine going through what you have. I know someone who's tiny, barely4lb, had 2 pups that weighed 3+oz. I cant imagine why they would have risked it. Not only that, the pups are now just 5 weeks and they have already been taken away and weaned from the mom. I have tried to talk to them and teach them everything that I have learned but they don't seem to listen. There are people out there that purposefully breed for tinies, and unfortunetly as long as people keep wanting the tinies than it will continue. There are just to many problems that can happen with an average size mom, we shouldn't increase their risks just in hopes of producing tinies. I know Belle's last litter one of her females didn't reach 4 lbs, and she is at 7lbs. So tinies can come from all size mommies. Please let us know how things go. |
Thanks for sharing your experience with us. I am sorry your mommy had to go through that. I am also sorry you lost a pup. I am glad mommy and pups are doing okay now. Hopefully people will learn from hearing you experrience although I dont know. There is someone on here now that breeds tinys and just says the risks just go with the territiory. Maybe she will read your story and learn something. |
Ditto..........if you want a littler yorkies you can still get it by breeding healthy sized females. Its in your best interest and your yorkies. |
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I honestly would not recommend breeding your female, esspecially if you're not experienced about. You have to know what to look for in an emergency. There is a alot more to having a litter than you would expect. You should be saving money now because she would more than likely need a c-section, which will cost between $500-1200. You also need to buy lots of supplies for the mother and her puppies including special food. Being that small you are risking her life. Could you deal with it if something were to happen to her that could have been prevented. Please think hard about what happened to Peanut who is bigger than your females. Peanut's mom said that the male was smaller, it doesn't matter because the parents or grandparents could have been bigger. Good luck with whatever you decide. |
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Just my opinion , it would be wiser to have your female spayed . I have 2 small girls and I have had them spayed even if peoples were telling me they would be fine to have pups . My little male will be neuter as soon as he will be old enough even if I know that peoples with females would like to have him as father of their babies . |
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I appreciate the warning, everyone tells me Pita is too small, she's barely 4 pounds. It is so tempting to breed her tho. After reading your story I am really having a wake up call. Sorry you and your baby had to go thro such hell. Enjoy the babies now. |
Thank you for the advice-I definitely have no intention of putting my baby at risk. I guess my best bet would be to spay her, and stud the male to get one of the puppies from that litter. We didn't buy our tinies on purpose-they just both turned out to be that way. |
Hi, Not trying to tell you what to do honestly, but really think long and hard about not breeding her. I raised Peanut from a puppy especially for breeding. I KNEW deep down it wasnt a good idea. I basically ignorred the proven guidelines and thought if I find the right male who is small...etc it might work. Its very hard to spend several months waiting, hoping, dreaming, then having to tell yourself................honestly.......this isnt right... Basically I tried to fool myself and also defend my decision. I can tell you this since it is a very fresh terrible feeling and thought in my mind.......you really dont understand the whole experience until you are at the crucial moment in it, kinda like a bad dream but you wake up from that, you cant from this.........this experience is real and once you start that ball rolling you cant change what can be a tragic outcome. I consider my yorkie very lucky. I have a long relationship with my vet, not all from yorkies, we are avid animal lovers and have in the past brought in strays.....raised a few horses, a few siberian huskies several years ago...etc. His last words to me " Kelly I hope you have learned from this experience" He was very nice to me what he said.......I know what he was thinking. |
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Kelly (luvdorkyyorkies) - how ARE the puppies doing ? It's been about 24 hours now and I just wanted to see how they are doing and how is your mommy ? Again .....thank you for sharing...I'm wishing you the best of luck with your new puppies and hope they are doing well and eating ...and hope your little mom gets to feeling better really soon. I'd love to see pictures of your new babies. |
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I challenge each and everyone of you who think this is a lark to read Kelly's post several times and let it sink in. Kelly was lucky her baby survived the c-section many do not. |
Kathy - you're so right - I read her post several times myself .....and while I debate alot against breeding tinies - I learned something from her experience that made me even more against it - I am not a breeder.... but I know how much I love animals and hate seeing them in pain - THIS Thread just brings it all home.... and I applaud Kelly for putting it out here for all to read. |
I keep coming back to this thread and re-reading the information. How many times have we seen members post commenting that there are no hard facts to support that breeding tinies is dangerous and wanting breeding members to come forth with an experience to back up that it is not advisable to breed smaller yorkies. I sincerely applaud you for educating the forum members, now and into the future, of YOUR negative experience and how heartwrenching the whole thing was for you and the pain that your baby endured. It takes a person of high standards to share a story such as you did. Thank you again! Please, let us know how mom and the babies are doing! Lisa |
Ok I have to response to this since I do breed small ones. I am so sorry to hear about you problems. The first thing I would do is get another vet. That is the most unethical procedure I have ever heard of. He needs to be turned in. I would not have allowed that to happen. My vet uses a gas that they wake up from very quickly. IMO a c-section is easier on the Mama than a difficult delivery. However if a c-section is warranted because the female is to small to have the pups (because a problem in any size dog can call for them having to have a c-section) I have her spayed & find her a good pet only home. I think everyone was waiting for a post of this nature to come up as it was pounced upon & beat into the ground. I haven't seen this happen with anyone with a large dog having a c-section. We need to have a poll on how many females in general have to have a section done. If you have a runt of a litter that is from larger dogs common sense should tell you do not breed. Being prepared for the unexpected does go with the business of breeding dogs. Hope everything is going well for you & your new family members. |
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C-sections are NOT natural. 3 lb dogs having babies is NOT natural. How do you know whether your dog with gas is in pain or not? C-sections take longer to recover from. That is known to everyone. She is happy with her vet, who didn't even charge her for it. I believe any vet who repeatedly gives a c-section to a poor dog is only in it for $$$. No matter how much it's downplayed, it's major surgery and dogs DO die from it. Thank god this one ended up okay. But I guess you can't save them all. How many have to die and suffer before people realize that it's wrong? |
I know that the following may offend others and to that I am sorry, but I too have my own opinions and I like to share them. For starts yes Tinies can have pups, I dont believe that anyone is trully debating that. But to compare a larger dag that has delivery problems, with that of a tiny is rediculous. A larger dog is less likely to have problems, anyone breeding tinies knows that there is a great chance of complications. I am not saying that there are always problems, but why take such a cutie and place her in such a high risk situation. Some keep stating that things are beat into the ground. If educating people on things and sharing experiences and ideas is beating things into the ground, then so is how loveable and cute our Yorkies are; and noone seems tired of hearing about that. Now if there were only a handful of members on this board than there would be no big threads, nor would there be such a wide range of experiences or knowledge. Just because the thread might not interest you as an individual doesn't mean that it is being beat into the ground. Share your experiences or your opinions if you want, and if you choose to only do that than don't cmplain about how many times you read the same issues. Anyone that spends a considerable amount of time on here can see at how quickly the threads move on, and since we are continually welcoming new members and members keep having problems than things are going to be brought up. |
I enjoy this board & I have learned many things & gotten a lot of idea's. Maybe I just was overly sensitive because of being bashed a little. And that's OK. |
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pup I started the poll you asked for. If people want to talk about it, move there. I believe this thread should just stay here for reference purposes to help others. |
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I have two small females that I will never breed, but I will also not risk the spay surgery unless there is a reason for it later on that makes it in their best interests to spay them. Both of my breeders advised against the spaying as well. I don't have any intact males in my home but, if I did, I would simply separate them when my females were in heat for the few weeks a year that occurs. I know it is inconvenient and a hassle maybe but if i can avoid unnecessary surgery for any of my babies I will. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. |
Kelly ...I got lost in replys & I didn't see if you posted since you started this thread.... HOW are your puppies and mom doing ? Are they eating ? How is the new mommy Peanut feeling ? IS everything ok ? You must be so busy with them but wanted to say that I hope everything is all right and they are getting stronger by the hour.... |
I am not trying to pick on you here but just asking some questions in the hopes of figuring out this puzzle. You are indeed brave to tell your story and we are all learning a lot from every new experience we get to share vicariously like this. I respect what you do and know that you are probably learning as you go as well. I would be getting a new vet too, especially if I was a breeder. I would only use a reproductive specialist who knows what they are doing. You do not sew up an incision w/o anesthesia!!! That is just cruel. I would not trust your vet either if he assured you prior to breeding that she could easily deliver a standard sized newborn (5 oz) and it turned out he was wrong. There are ways to determine this is advance. How many generations back did you verify the smallness of the yorkies from the lines of the female and the male? Breeders who seriously, responsibly, professionally, and consistently breeding for tinies (note I did not say "breeding tinies" but rather "breeding FOR tinies") hopefully use a reproductive specialist or at least a vet who is very experiencd and has a lot of breeders in their practice, they breed the size of the dogs down year after year until they KNOW for a fact that the chances of larger puppies or "throwbacks" are very very very small to avoid an increase in the risk of C-section. Because a male or a female is small does not mean that their puppies will be necessarily. You have to develop a program of smaller yorkies to reduce the risk and have more of a chance of getting small babies. It is also not true that you HAVE TO line breed to do this. The breeders (some of whom are vets) I know who breed for tinies do not line breed. |
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I would love to talk to some of these breeders who are vets that you keep talking about. It would be a very interesting and enlightening discussion to hear from them first hand and the experiences they have had. Do they have any articles in print that they can share with us? Where are they located at maybe someone who lives close could go and do a interview and share the information with us. I would be glad to help pay for a visit to them to hear their wealth of information. I am sure that there are others who would chip in also. |
I am just now reading this. I am so sorry for what the mommy had to go thru and the loss of the baby. Thank you for sharing your story. |
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Another one was a vet in Texas who bought from a well known breeder there and started a breeding program using a 4 lb yorkie. Just to reiterate again, in all of these instances the breeder has had the female analyzed and tested thoroughly, a smaller male is used and there are several generations spanning many years where only small dogs were produced to reduce the chance of a large puppy as much as possible. Kathy~ Do you use a theriogenologist in your breeding program and what does he/she say about the cutoff size for the female yorkie and breeding? |
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I just wonder if these breeders are telling the people they got their little females from about what they're doing. |
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