Breed Standard -- K.C. vs YTCA

[magicgenie]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I'm not sure we've gotten to the point of breeding the terrier out of a Yorkshire, but maybe it's reached a point where it's been 'improved' enough. Maybe now the focus should be on preserving what we've got....a beautiful, sporty dog with a unique temperament.

I'd like to think that consideration for what the Yorkshire was bred for doesn't take a back seat to its look, but that may be a bit naive. If it becomes an even more 'elegant' dog than now, I think something will be lost in the trade-off.

and thanks again for saying this. I was once beaten to a pulp for saying this.

[Brooklynn]

One reason I don't let my dogs corner snakes, a very good friend of mine, her yorkie was in her backyard and yes you got it was struck just under the eye by the snake and THANK GOD it wasn't poisonious because if it was he would have been dead in minutes...and they do have copper heads in her area. While yes, they need and do have the terrier attitude it is OUR responsiblity to protect them from harm and that includes from other animals. I would HATE for my dogs to get bitten by a rabid animal. Yes, my dogs chase squirrels up a tree and if I didn't have a fenced in yard and lived in the country I'm sure they'd chase rabbits along with other dogs, cars, kids but I keep them a fenced yard and my house for their protection. They may be your typical terrier but we as responsible pet and show dog owners need to make sure when doing what they are made for it is done in a repsonsible manner and a controlled environment to ensure their protection.
This is all I'm going to say on the subject...my dogs are typical yorkshire terriers with the terrier attitude but also my lap dogs and pets

Donna

[yorkiegirl2]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

One reason I don't let my dogs corner snakes, a very good friend of mine, her yorkie was in her backyard and yes you got it was struck just under the eye by the snake and THANK GOD it wasn't poisonious because if it was he would have been dead in minutes...and they do have copper heads in her area. While yes, they need and do have the terrier attitude it is OUR responsiblity to protect them from harm and that includes from other animals. I would HATE for my dogs to get bitten by a rabid animal. Yes, my dogs chase squirrels up a tree and if I didn't have a fenced in yard and lived in the country I'm sure they'd chase rabbits along with other dogs, cars, kids but I keep them a fenced yard and my house for their protection. They may be your typical terrier but we as responsible pet and show dog owners need to make sure when doing what they are made for it is done in a repsonsible manner and a controlled environment to ensure their protection.
This is all I'm going to say on the subject...my dogs are typical yorkshire terriers with the terrier attitude but also my lap dogs and pets

Donna

Donna I do not intentionally let mine corner snakes, chase rabbits or squirrels..
I have a privacy fence but some times a snake will slide through.
The dogs corner it and alert us that one is in the yard , so we can kill it and get it out of the yard.

Squirrels will run the top of the fence line and the dog run the squirrel down it until it jumps to a tree out of site, I just hold my breath hoping the squirrel doesn’t loose its footing and fall inside the fence.
I had one young squirrel that got cornered inside the fence by the dogs and let me tell you trying to hold a little pack of terriers back so the squirrel could get away was not easy.

We had a rabbit that got inside the fence early part of spring and had babies in an old tree stump.
The dogs picked up on the scent and started digging around the stump when up pops 3 babies that took off in different directions.
We were able to save 2 of the babies but I think the dogs gave the other one a heart attack.

I have two girls that knows the scent of a mouse, we live by a field and do every now and then get one or two of these field mice in the house. These 2 girls will hunt around the house until they locate and kill it.
They are really funny because they can be in a dead sleep and if I say “GET THAT MOUSE” they will jump up and start hunting around the house to see is one is around.

[TammyJM]

Originally Posted by yorkiegirl2

Donna I do not intentionally let mine corner snakes, chase rabbits or squirrels..
I have a privacy fence but some times a snake will slide through.
The dogs corner it and alert us that one is in the yard , so we can kill it and get it out of the yard.

Squirrels will run the top of the fence line and the dog run the squirrel down it until it jumps to a tree out of site, I just hold my breath hoping the squirrel doesn’t loose its footing and fall inside the fence.
I had one young squirrel that got cornered inside the fence by the dogs and let me tell you trying to hold a little pack of terriers back so the squirrel could get away was not easy.

We had a rabbit that got inside the fence early part of spring and had babies in an old tree stump.
The dogs picked up on the scent and started digging around the stump when up pops 3 babies that took off in different directions.
We were able to save 2 of the babies but I think the dogs gave the other one a heart attack.

I have two girls that knows the scent of a mouse, we live by a field and do every now and then get one or two of these field mice in the house. These 2 girls will hunt around the house until they locate and kill it.
They are really funny because they can be in a dead sleep and if I say “GET THAT MOUSE” they will jump up and start hunting around the house to see is one is around.

And everything you wrote sums up the beauty of a true Yorkie's temperament! I adore their spunk and determination!! This is one of the many reasons why I love this breed so much.

[Woogie Man]

It's nice to hear that the Terrier is alive and well in the Yorkshire. I posted the 2 standards to get opinions on which one better defines a Yorkshire Terrier. Even though we may not have a problem with the dogs now (some may disagree), the standard is the guidepost for what will be produced in the future.

What I see is the vagueness of the American standard can lead to too much interpretation by breeders and judges. I don't want to see the future of our breed being driven by this as it could lead to 'just another pretty dog' and the Yorkshire is so much more than that.

While the Yorkie is shown in the toy class, its terrier roots should be maintained. There are some clubs of working breeds that have bemoaned what has happened to their breed after its getting into the AKC conformation ring. Some breeds have been replaced in the field due to their natural instincts and abilities being bred out of them in favor of looks. I think one of the best protections against this is a clear, well defined standard that addresses all critical points of the dog.

If appearance is placed above function, somewhere along the way something will be sacrificed. If form becomes the main criteria, then it's an open question what the dog's function will be. You may have a gorgeous dog, but what can it do? The Yorkie is a 'fancy' terrier, but just how fancy can it be and still be a Terrier?

I suppose I'm more concerned about what is to come rather than what is today. We are all supposed to be stewards of the breed and I wonder if having a vague standard is offering the best stewardship we can to this wonderful breed.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

It's nice to hear that the Terrier is alive and well in the Yorkshire. I posted the 2 standards to get opinions on which one better defines a Yorkshire Terrier. Even though we may not have a problem with the dogs now (some may disagree), the standard is the guidepost for what will be produced in the future.

What I see is the vagueness of the American standard can lead to too much interpretation by breeders and judges. I don't want to see the future of our breed being driven by this as it could lead to 'just another pretty dog' and the Yorkshire is so much more than that.

While the Yorkie is shown in the toy class, its terrier roots should be maintained. There are some clubs of working breeds that have bemoaned what has happened to their breed after its getting into the AKC conformation ring. Some breeds have been replaced in the field due to their natural instincts and abilities being bred out of them in favor of looks. I think one of the best protections against this is a clear, well defined standard that addresses all critical points of the dog.

If appearance is placed above function, somewhere along the way something will be sacrificed. If form becomes the main criteria, then it's an open question what the dog's function will be. You may have a gorgeous dog, but what can it do? The Yorkie is a 'fancy' terrier, but just how fancy can it be and still be a Terrier?

I suppose I'm more concerned about what is to come rather than what is today. We are all supposed to be stewards of the breed and I wonder if having a vague standard is offering the best stewardship we can to this wonderful breed.

Well I can tell what a judge from cdja said/asked of me when I was preparing a judging seminar for our breed. He wanted as much definitive detail as possible. Ratios and measurements, temperament defined in greater than two lines, coat clarification along with grooming. He felt the more detailed the standard, the better quality judging you would get, and breeding.
For example head in our breed is very important. Our head is to make a statement. It is to be a large head; anywhere from 40-44% of height at withers. the muzzle should present a flat line running parallel to the flat crown on a ratio 4 to 5. The muzzle is meaty, with no jowls or flews, the bite is scissor. We have dQ's for missing teeth and a bite anything other than scissor. The head is broad. The furnishings are full, fully covering the eyes, the beard may extend down to the center of the chest. The head from the side should give the appearance of a brick. Head is carried at about a 45 degree angle from the back at a full trot. Head carriage is lowered when pulling; ie draft work. The nose is large and black. Any other color of nose is a major fault. Teeth are large, intact, white.

All these attributes describe the fully mature dog (3 years old), in some slow maturing lines, and at least 2-2 1/2 yrs old in other lines.


As a side note: did you happen to look at some of the Yorkie pics they had up on the KC site? One in particular; the face/muzzle looked very different to my eye. the stop for sure. I think it was second pic on the right.
What did you think about those dogs? I know it is hard to tell from those pics.

[Brooklynn]

As a side note: did you happen to look at some of the Yorkie pics they had up on the KC site? One in particular; the face/muzzle looked very different to my eye. the stop for sure. I think it was second pic on the right.
What did you think about those dogs? I know it is hard to tell from those pics.[/QUOTE]

I saw them and I'm going to keep my opinion to myself LOL...my momma always said, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all

Donna

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I saw them and I'm going to keep my opinion to myself LOL...my momma always said, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all
Donna

I went back and looked....LOL. One thing I don't like is the ear grooming. It takes away from the dog's look.

I don't think those dogs were the best examples of the breed. There are lots of pictures of the the 1997 BIS at Crufts.....Ozmilion Mystification. Just google the name and search 'images'.

[Woogie Man]

...went back and looked again. There are 4 pages of pics of the YT and some are quite nice looking dogs. I did notice that, in addition to the ear grooming difference, the topknot is more pulled back, which affects the overall look. Do you suppose that is done to reveal the head stop more? It seems that the AKC dogs have the topknot more pushed forward and the head stop is hidden by that.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Also, both standards call for a 'not too long' muzzle. It seems that the trend is towards a shorter muzzle. With both standards calling for a 'not too long' muzzle, I would think that anything tending towards a 'shorter' appearance would be drifting away from the standard.

probably dont want a silky terrier or skye terrier nose on a yorkie. i dont think its a trend towards a shorter muzzle.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

It's nice to hear that the Terrier is alive and well in the Yorkshire. I posted the 2 standards to get opinions on which one better defines a Yorkshire Terrier. Even though we may not have a problem with the dogs now (some may disagree), the standard is the guidepost for what will be produced in the future.

What I see is the vagueness of the American standard can lead to too much interpretation by breeders and judges. I don't want to see the future of our breed being driven by this as it could lead to 'just another pretty dog' and the Yorkshire is so much more than that.

While the Yorkie is shown in the toy class, its terrier roots should be maintained. There are some clubs of working breeds that have bemoaned what has happened to their breed after its getting into the AKC conformation ring. Some breeds have been replaced in the field due to their natural instincts and abilities being bred out of them in favor of looks. I think one of the best protections against this is a clear, well defined standard that addresses all critical points of the dog.

If appearance is placed above function, somewhere along the way something will be sacrificed. If form becomes the main criteria, then it's an open question what the dog's function will be. You may have a gorgeous dog, but what can it do? The Yorkie is a 'fancy' terrier, but just how fancy can it be and still be a Terrier?

I suppose I'm more concerned about what is to come rather than what is today. We are all supposed to be stewards of the breed and I wonder if having a vague standard is offering the best stewardship we can to this wonderful breed.

Yes, it is sad that this has happened to alot of gun dogs, like english setters, pointers and Irish and Gordon setters.
They are now divided by registries, the show dogs are AKC the hunting dogs are registered FDSB. The Field Dog Stud Book focuses on dogs bred to perform in the field. It supports no conformation showing.
The Field Dog Stud Book is the oldest purebred dog registry in the United States having started registrations in and currently maintaining records from 1874

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Exactly I rest my case, the YTCA promotes a lapdog instead of the Terrier it was suppose to be. In and out a doggie door only when the owner is there from 5 to 9 pm other wise you stay in. Some life huh...
I truly feel sorry for the yorkies in these situations not being able to enjoy life and the instinct they have.
Keeping them in wrappers in cages so you can show them off. It is truly sad what you do to your yorkies.

Oh, I think YOU will be wrapping your carriers if you want to WIN in the ring. So please dont go off on exhibitors. Our dogs live a great life. I would rather have mine playing with toys than a stinking desease ridden rat anyday.(hantivirus, bubonic plague rings a bell) I have cats to kill the rats.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Oh, I think YOU will be wrapping your carriers if you want to WIN in the ring. So please dont go off on exhibitors. Our dogs live a great life. I would rather have mine playing with toys than a stinking desease ridden rat anyday.(hantivirus, bubonic plague rings a bell) I have cats to kill the rats.

Whatever you say. LOL

[Sunnie]

I am just reading this and even tho I am very new to showing my dogs.. I have to say that one of the first things my mentor pointed out to me is that my dog will now be treated like a king. He is VERY well fed, groomed , trained, exercized, and pampered. My little 4 3/4 lb pampered boy is very much a terrier and totally unafraid of anything no matter the size. One of my big concerns was to be sure he ENJOYED what he was doing and after watching him this last weekend I am satisfied that he loves it.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

I beg your pardon but my yorkies are still ratters, long hair and all. They love to go to the barn and hunt vermin. Why would you breed that out of them? Its the terrier in them. That is what we all most love about the terrier, not to be another lapdog. If they are a lapdog they are not terriers anymore.

I'm envious that you have a farm, and the space, and safety to run your yorkies freely.

Not so for many of us. But we do the best we can to nuture and maintain the Yorkie drive, and temperament.

Razz although wrapped, swims, hikes, and chases anything that comes in his line of vision; he is a great alert guard dog. And he is rewarded for this behaviour.

Nuturing and maintaining a temperament, is not unifocused. You as the owner, breeder, etc can do this by deliberate stimulation. Be it the prosaic obedience, or the exciting agility, or rally, or fly ball. Terriers don't need to hunt vermin to protect their drive and function.

And I'm happy to say I don't have mice or rats in my home, but we do have the occasional fly and spider, and he is on them forthwith.