Yorkshire Terrier Club of Ethical Hobby Breeders

[JeanieK]

[quote=Mardelin;3211405]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Unethical is a pretty strong word. I can understand why people would get upset over it. But I can also understand why it is being done. It really depends on the motive. However if there is nothing in the standard then they really are doing nothing wrong.

How ever "just because you can", does not mean you should.

For example there is nothing in the YT rules against joining and pretending to be someone whom you are not. But just because one can doesn't mean one should.[/QUOTE]

And it is ethically wrong to accuse someone of something you have no proof of.

You've mentioned your suspicions many times and many threads, privately and publically. Give it a rest, it's obvious what your motives. are.

Man that word is really getting a work out. Who did I accuse of what?

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by yorkielady06

That is correct he is standard colored according to the written standard. But if I am showing him in the ring to evaluate breeding stock then I am doing what I should be doing. That was just my point on that. It is what I do afterwards that will determine ethics. If I use him on my breeding stock to improve my lines then I have done as the AKC lists. If I use him with other quality females that have weaknesses where he has strengths and vice versa then that is good, right? So if I am honest and ethical up to this point I would then, if ever approached by a show/hobby breeder to use him at stud, would disclose his parentage.

Everyone is assuming that just because I have him in the ring I intend to be unethical and stud him if he champions to the "pure blue and tan" line. Which may have never been my intention in the first place.
But lets look even further. How many show lines out there are "pure BLUE AND TAN" ? How many have the Nikkos lines? or other proven parti producers in their lines? How about black and tans or black and golds? What about the blues? the chocolates? the golds?

The Yorkies have so many serious life threatening conditions and debilitating conditions that are linked to genetics, I for one wish people were as passionate about stopping those as they are about keeping the colors out of their lines or in them for that matter.

How many of the breeders or exhibitors on here have done testing on all their stock? If so, what tests? When you go into a ring with a dog or breed one , have they passed OFA or Penn hip, CERF, bile acids, LFTs, ect? On every dog? Should that not be mandatory? If we preach about health being of utmost importance then put your money in that dog and prove it before showing as part of the evaluation of breeding stock. But alas that is my opinion.

You make some very good points. The YTCA has put themselves in this predicament. Their rules are being challenged.

they are either going to have to write new rules or step up to the plate and do the right thing.

there are ethics issues on both sides here. they wrote the standard and those showing the carriers are following it.

Judges aren't always ethical either. we have read right here in this thread here they have made unfair judgements.

So when it comes right down to it, the whole show scene is meaningless without ethics.

[Elle]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Let me ask you this. Are you personally against the YTCA creating a category for the parti color?

How would it be different for any different mixed breeds for a yorkie/chi, yorkie/rat, yorkie/poodle or bewier?

I appreciate your loyalty, the sincere crusader that never stops. Errr A category? Oh no, what for?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

You make some very good points. The YTCA has put themselves in this predicament. Their rules are being challenged.

they are either going to have to write new rules or step up to the plate and do the right thing.

there are ethics issues on both sides here. they wrote the standard and those showing the carriers are following it.

Judges aren't always ethical either. we have read right here in this thread here they have made unfair judgements.

So when it comes right down to it, the whole show scene is meaningless without ethics.

There will always be those who don't like any breed standard, it's not up to the YTCA or any breed club to please the public or breeders who want to show. If you are showing so that you can advertise your dogs for more money or to impress your friends and customers you are showing for the wrong reasons. Showing alone, will not improve your stock.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Elle

How would it be different for any different mixed breeds for a yorkie/chi, yorkie/rat, yorkie/poodle or bewier?

I appreciate your loyalty, the sincere crusader that never stops. Errr A category? Oh no, what for?

HUH

Was there and answer to my question somewhere in there? Are you being sarcastic? Are you mocking me.

Guess I'm clueless cause what you wrote made NO sense at all.

Say what you mean.

Actually it doesn't matter because the questin was not for you?

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

There will always be those who don't like any breed standard, it's not up to the YTCA or any breed club to please the public or breeders who want to show. If you are showing so that you can advertise your dogs for more money or to impress your friends and customers you are showing for the wrong reasons. Showing alone, will not improve your stock.

Now but if you're showing to determine if a particular meets the standard so you know if it should be bred that is for the right reason.

Many other breeds have different color categories. But they no doubt had someone pushing to get the other colors included. Change will not happen without someone pushing for it.

Parti breeders have the right to push, and have the right to do whatever is necessary to improve their dogs.

Personally I couldn't care less about championships, but I'm glad there are those that do, who are willing to put up with the prejudices and politics and take their dogs into the ring. As long they are doing it to better the dog, isn't that what it's all about. improving the dog?

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Why is it inconceivable that it is being done to produce better dogs in hopes that in the future they will be allowed in the ring.

We cannot present a very good argument for competing if we don;t have dogs worth of competing.

We hear constantantly that even without considering the color, that they are poor examples of a yorkie. At one time they were produced by champions, then they went comercial and lost a lot. We are trying to bring them back to looking like yorkies of a different color.

Let me ask you this. Are you personally against the YTCA creating a category for the parti color?

I don't want to offend you in anyway but I don't see the YTCA creating a category for the varitation in color. I am a tradionalist as far as the Yorkshire Terrier is concerned. I like the standard yorkie actually better than the parti but that is my preference. If I wanted to show dogs of different colors I would be in a breed that allows it. I'm sure there are many in the YTCA feel the same way. If we wanted to show dogs of color we would be showing and breeding those breeds instead of the Yorkshire Terrier.
I chose yorkies because of the breed and it's color along with many other things. After I got into showing it made me understand and appreciate the breed and the importance of health, structure, movement and the appreciation of it. I hope that made sense.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Now but if you're showing to determine if a particular meets the standard so you know if it should be bred that is for the right reason.

Many other breeds have different color categories. But they no doubt had someone pushing to get the other colors included. Change will not happen without someone pushing for it.Parti breeders have the right to push, and have the right to do whatever is necessary to improve their dogs.

Personally I couldn't care less about championships, but I'm glad there are those that do, who are willing to put up with the prejudices and politics and take their dogs into the ring. As long they are doing it to better the dog, isn't that what it's all about. improving the dog?

And it was these other breed clubs that conveyed to the YTCA to be careful and not now allow the parti into the standard. As they were regretful in doing so with their breeds.

[Cares4Dogs]

Gees Louise! I've been so wrapped up in my personal life that I missed another great parti debate.

I didnt read this whole thread cuz its too long and I dont have time, BUT my take on a parti carrier champion is this......DICLOSURE! If a carrier stud is breeding with a traditional-what difference does it make if he's a carrier or not??? The only way there would end up a parti pup is if the bitch was a carrier too..and shouldn't the owner of that bitch know if they have a carrier or not???

I think to be fair...being honest and disclosing if a champion is a carrier is being honest and is not unethical.

I wont get in the middle of this debate BUT integrity starts with honesty which equals good ethics!!!!

oh wait.....isnt this off topic????

[Disney]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I always see the argument that Partis don't fit the breed standard and therefore shouldn't be recognized (shown). The YTCA calls it a DQ but I believe the founders of the breed wouldn't have considered them Yorkshire Terriers at all.

There are many 'histories' of the Yorkshire and here is a bit of one from Wikipedia.

"Yorkshire terriers were shown in a dog show category (class) at the time called "Rough and Broken-coated, Broken-haired Scotch and Yorkshire terriers". Hugh Dalziel, writing in 1878, says that "the classification of these dogs at shows and in the Kennel Club Stud Book is confusing and absurd" in lumping together these different types.

In the early days of the breed, "almost anything in the shape of a Terrier having a long coat with blue on the body and fawn or silver coloured head and legs, with tail docked and ears trimmed, was received and admired as a Yorkshire terrier".[16] But in the late 1860s, a popular Paisley type Yorkshire terrier showdog named Huddersfield Ben, owned by a woman living in Yorkshire, Mary Ann Foster, was seen at dog shows throughout Great Britain, and defined the breed type for the Yorkshire terrier."

Now that's not a complete history, but it does show that at one time many types of dogs were shown together. Also, the Maltese was once shown in this class. In 1874 the first Yorkshires were registered in the Kennel Club's stud books. It wasn't until 1886 that Yorkshire Terriers were recognized as an individual breed and there was no breed club formed until 1898. There were many intervening years of 'anything goes' until a true breed standard was set forth to identify the Yorkie for what it was intended to be. My own belief is that is how the Parti gene got into the breed and has carried forward but the Yorkshire Terrier was always intended to be a blue and tan dog.

I have seen many historical mentions of white or silver Yorkies, but never in a positive light. Just as, over time, the Clydsedale and other influences on the breed have been bred out to make a more well-defined dog, the Parti gene has no place in a Yorkshire Terrier.

We still see oversize Yorkies, along with wire coated, flop-eared and Yorkies of other off colors besides the Parti color. While they can be registered, they cannot be shown. What makes the Parti different from those others that they should be shown? All of the above mentioned variations are true aspects of the Yorkies' history, but they are not TRUE Yorkshire Terriers, no matter their parentage.

I know this all sounds very critical, but I truly am not trying to disparage Parti breeders. I don't question your ethics or dedication. I do think the question I posed needs to be answered, though, before there is complete acceptance of the Parti.

I'll be the first one to say that I love ALL Yorkies, no matter what. That are an enchanting breed. I've had a teapot bred from 2 well pedigreed parents. He's a beautiful dog, but not a Yorkshire Terrier in the true sense of the term. He's more like a Clydesdale than a Yorkie and there's a definite resemblance to Huddersfield Ben, but he does not measure up to being a true Yorkshire Terrier as we know it. I wouldn't think of breeding him even though I could say that breeding for his traits could bring back the Clydesdale. It wouldn't be 'unethical' but, if I did, I would not try and call the offspring Yorkshires, as they would be Clydesdales more than anything.

Here's a pic of the boy I mentioned. it's a shame there's no 'place' for this kind of dog in the show world, but that's just the way it is. A breed is a breed because of its adherence to the standard and there's just no way around it.

I know we don't see eye to eye, but !! Informative and pretty doggie!

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

You know I think you people should give this a rest; I can't believe how much this girl is harassed. If you don't want to believe that she's a Russian living in Australia, then don't, but I'm tired of reading of yours and others suspicions. Is she selling something, here at Yorkietalk? Does she want to buy a dog from you? This is harassment!

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Unethical is a pretty strong word. I can understand why people would get upset over it. But I can also understand why it is being done. It really depends on the motive. However if there is nothing in the standard then they really are doing nothing wrong.

How ever "just because you can", does not mean you should.

For example there is nothing in the YT rules against joining and pretending to be someone whom you are not. But just because one can doesn't mean one should.QUOTE]

And it is ethically wrong to accuse someone of something you have no proof of.


You've mentioned your suspicions many times and many threads, privately and publically. Give it a rest, it's obvious what your motives. are.

Thanks you guys. Try let roll off your back. Gotten to point where I need to. Mum always say 'let passive aggression roll off back like water of a duck feather!'

Mum like bird metaphor which weird because she terrified of birds...

[yorkielady06]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

But the point still remains...you can't show a Parti in the show ring and it can't obtain a CH title. There is still no way to have a judge evaluate a Parti to see if it's of breeding quality without going in a show ring so what is the objective to have just the carrier to have the approval without having the Parti color being approved. Just because the parti carrier was proved in the ring doesn't mean the parti color being bred and produced is a proved seciman of the breed isn't that correct? Just because a standard yorkie receives a CH title still doesn't mean it's worthy either as we all know some obtain a CH title that shouldn't....so if it's for bettering a line having the CH title isn't going to help if you can't show the Parti color your producing or breeding unless it's to supply the pet market or for money. I'm not saying you do it but I'm just saying you can't have a judge evaluate the Parti because they aren't allowed. Seems to me it's still deceiving or trying to justify the breeding of Parti's. I'm not I'm talking about anyone in particular.

OK so I have a few more questions that I would like the exhibitors to answer then.

If you are in the show circuit and you are showing your dogs to prove that they are worth specimens of the breed correct? And if you are also then using that Champion stud male to approved bitches, correct? So according to the above statement you only breed them to CH bitches? Never to unfinished girls? or vice versa? If you breed to unfinished dogs are you not supplying the pet market also?

I really want this one answered also. How many of you exhibitors have done ALL the tests on their dogs, and I mean all of them that are bred or shown? These little ones you are growing up to bring in the ring, have their parents passed all these tests also?

I would reply to the why show the carrier Yorkie question...because we also need to have our stock evaluated. Unfortunately at this time it is the only way to do that with the AKC shows. Do you not show for that reason? Have you not ever bred an off colored dog (black and tan or lighter blue one) to improve your line in another dept (back, structure, coat texture)?

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

And it was these other breed clubs that conveyed to the YTCA to be careful and not now allow the parti into the standard. As they were regretful in doing so with their breeds.

Really!!!

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by yorkielady06

OK so I have a few more questions that I would like the exhibitors to answer then.

If you are in the show circuit and you are showing your dogs to prove that they are worth specimens of the breed correct? And if you are also then using that Champion stud male to approved bitches, correct? So according to the above statement you only breed them to CH bitches? Never to unfinished girls? or vice versa? If you breed to unfinished dogs are you not supplying the pet market also?

I really want this one answered also. How many of you exhibitors have done ALL the tests on their dogs, and I mean all of them that are bred or shown? These little ones you are growing up to bring in the ring, have their parents passed all these tests also?

I would reply to the why show the carrier Yorkie question...because we also need to have our stock evaluated. Unfortunately at this time it is the only way to do that with the AKC shows. Do you not show for that reason? Have you not ever bred an off colored dog (black and tan or lighter blue one) to improve your line in another dept (back, structure, coat texture)?

Yes that is where the enhancing comes in.

[maggiesmom_2007]

Originally Posted by yorkielady06

OK so I have a few more questions that I would like the exhibitors to answer then.

If you are in the show circuit and you are showing your dogs to prove that they are worth specimens of the breed correct?I show my dogs to prove they conform to the standard, I had a Dark puppy bitch that I was assured would break by the time she was 2 . Then the standard was reworded and that same Bitch was 13 months and I took her out of the shows because she was too dark. And if you are also then using that Champion stud male to approved bitches, correct? That is sometimes the way to go, you can also breed a CH. Bitch to a non finished male. So according to the above statement you only breed them to CH bitches? Just because the Bitch is approved doesn't necessarily mean she is finished. Never to unfinished girls? or vice versa? If you breed to unfinished dogs are you not supplying the pet market also? Regardless if you breed to finished or unfinished dogs the ones that you don't keep back for show do go to pet homes. What does that have to do with anything. Just because you have 2 finished dogs does not mean you are going to have exceptional puppies. Like it has been said time and time again you have to look at the prior generations to get an idea of what you might end up with. Just because all the dogs in the past 3 to 4 generation are of uniform size, color, structure etc., doesn't mean you won't end up with a pup that is bigger, darker, lighter, or off in some part of their structure.
I think it is wrong for some to use color enhancements of any sort be they dyes, chalk or yes even shampoos. I also think it's wrong to portray a dog as something it's not. Be it a Parti Carrier or a dog that has been fixed.
I think it should be disclosed either before actually showing , As exhibitors do when they are showing a Bitch in heat. There are other showing venues besides AKC and UKC. They have the rare breed shows the NAKC just to name a few.

I really want this one answered also. How many of you exhibitors have done ALL the tests on their dogs, and I mean all of them that are bred or shown? I have done all necessary testing with the exception of OFA and that will be done later this year. My male isn't old enough for all the testing, but as soon as he is you can bet he will have all the necessary testing done. These little ones you are growing up to bring in the ring, have their parents passed all these tests also? Yes they have.
I would reply to the why show the carrier Yorkie question...because we also need to have our stock evaluated. Unfortunately at this time it is the only way to do that with the AKC shows. Once again AKC is not the only show venue. Do you not show for that reason? Once again I show my dogs to prove they conform to the standard. Have you not ever bred an off colored dog (black and tan or lighter blue one) to improve your line in another dept (back, structure, coat texture)?

That is how we improve our lines.
I am by no means an expert in Breeding and Showing but I do know right from wrong. Coloring dogs, showing a dog that is a parti carrier and showing a dog that has been altered, is not conforming to the standard. It is deceitful.
Plain and simple. This is my opinion.

[maggiesmom_2007]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Yes that is where the enhancing comes in.

Um no it isn't.

If you are breeding 2 dogs together to improve say structure, that is not enhancing that is improving your line.