I want a Biewer/parti yorkie

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

This is one reason I don't recommend people buy parti's, the breeders tend to breed the sire and dams to the offspring, there is too much inbreeding being done. The dog you buy was probably inbred, and now you want to do it, to rush the process. Remember, there's a difference between line breeding and inbreeding. You are just asking for genetic problems when you do this, and the poor puppy buyer pays the price.

That is just plain wrong for you to say such a thing.. Making such blanket statements like all partis are inbred is just a blatant lie. My partis are not inbred, and most I have encountered are not either . The parti has now had lots of years of breeding into traditonals that there is no reason to inbreed. Nancy don't post statements that you know nothing about.

[kpstoybox]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

This is one reason I don't recommend people buy parti's, the breeders tend to breed the sire and dams to the offspring, there is too much inbreeding being done. The dog you buy was probably inbred, and now you want to do it, to rush the process. Remember, there's a difference between line breeding and inbreeding. You are just asking for genetic problems when you do this, and the poor puppy buyer pays the price.

The parti's were inbred and line bred...just like the Biewers were as their numbers were scarce at first. In fact...all purebred dogs were inbred at one time. As you know...that is how size, type, color & markings were set in a breed. Some show breeders will still breed a father to a daughter, mother to a son...to cement a feature such as head, ear set, top line, coat, etc. Are you also going to reccomend that people stay away from show breeders because one or two of their numbers inbreed? I would hope not.

There are thousands of parti's and their carrier's registered with the AKC. There is no need to inbreed in this day and age of the variety. I for one...have not heard of any parti breeders purposely inbreeding their parti's.

Using something like this to scare people away from the parti yorkie is just wrong.

[yorkielady06]

I was not talking about inbreeding in any way shape or form!! Would never even suggest that. My parti female is not related to any of my dogs. The parti male I used was from another breeder and not related....and the pup I am keeping will be bred to my little guy I just purchased (4 weeks old) after he gets here, goes through lots of medical testing..ie the eyes, knees, hips and bile acid testing prior to ever being bred to one of my girls.
I was trying to explain that a parti male with a standard female will not produce a parti puppy. They both must have parti in their lines and even then the only way to get a parti for sure is to breed one parti to another parti (unrelated of course).
So to answer your question...
The offspring would all be carriers, but would not be full partis... breed a carrier to another parti and get half the puppies parti and half carriers if you are lucky...
Tammy

[kpstoybox]

Originally Posted by luvdorkyyorkies

Thank you very much for the info!

What a process!


SO if I buy a parti male, the male and female will not produce parti puppies but their babies will?

It took me close to 4 years to produce my first parti litter. I just posted updated pics of them in the nursery.

Even though I am very happy with this litter..I still have miles to go to get the conformation and consistancy the parti yorkie badly needs to be taken seriously by those who could one day vote it into it's own variety class.

For me..I started with a cute little female I knew was a carrier. I bred her to a friends very nice carrier male twice...and had two nice litters from the pair. I ended up getting two carrier females nice enough to keep back from those litters. During this time...I started my search for the nicest parti male I could find. I am not rich (far from it)...so this was the hard part. I contacted many breeders and most were just too expensive with no guarantee's. I thank my lucky stars that I found my boy when I did. I had to have him shipped in from Colorado...but I knew he was special when I first saw him. He is a very nice male with good bite, OFA patella's, cerf clear, bile acid tested normal.

But that was the hardest part of my search. Finding a male I liked and could afford, that had a normal bite, knee's and both boys "out da house"!! LOL

The health testing comes later..and then you have to hold your breath during that.

For me...it was worth all the time and money I invested in my dogs. I am so very proud of them.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

This is one reason I don't recommend people buy parti's, the breeders tend to breed the sire and dams to the offspring, there is too much inbreeding being done. The dog you buy was probably inbred, and now you want to do it, to rush the process. Remember, there's a difference between line breeding and inbreeding. You are just asking for genetic problems when you do this, and the poor puppy buyer pays the price.

Nancy, I agree with Breezeaway and Karen on this one. You might want to pick up Malcolm B. Willis book "Genetics of the Dog" to fully understand what line breeding and inbreeding really is and how it will different for each breed of dog. You have to look at the pedigree's to see this and the Parti's were not as inbred once they hit the states For the most part they have always been bred back to Yorkies. The Parti breeders have not been breeding Parti to Parti but have gone back into the Yorkie lines and they are not breeding father to daughter to get a Parti as you implied. The Biewer breeders in Germany still breed back to Yorkies (I am guessing because to many dogs died) but for some reason many people here in the states are only breeding Biewer to Biewer.

Even though the Parti's and the Biewers came from the same kennel in England they both took different paths in terms of inbreeding/linebreeding and the Biewer was much more inbreed (by Mr. Biewer) than the Parti's (you can see this in the pedigree's if you are interested). Breezeaway has all of this listed on her website along with the history of the Biewers and the Parti's.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Nancy, I agree with Breezeaway and Karen on this one. You might want to pick up Malcolm B. Willis book "Genetics of the Dog" to fully understand what line breeding and inbreeding really is and how it will different for each breed of dog. You have to look at the pedigree's to see this and the Parti's were not as inbred once they hit the states For the most part they have always been bred back to Yorkies. The Parti breeders have not been breeding Parti to Parti but have gone back into the Yorkie lines and they are not breeding father to daughter to get a Parti as you implied. The Biewer breeders in Germany still breed back to Yorkies (I am guessing because to many dogs died) but for some reason many people here in the states are only breeding Biewer to Biewer.

Even though the Parti's and the Biewers came from the same kennel in England they both took different paths in terms of inbreeding/linebreeding and the Biewer was much more inbreed (by Mr. Biewer) than the Parti's (you can see this in the pedigree's if you are interested). Breezeaway has all of this listed on her website along with the history of the Biewers and the Parti's.

I was responding to this remark:

SO if I buy a parti male, the male and female will not produce parti puppies but their babies will?

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I was responding to this remark:

Your quote still does not make genetic sense to me..I get the impression you think the Parti breeders are breeding father to daughter to finally get the white.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Your quote still does not make genetic sense to me..I get the impression you think the Parti breeders are breeding father to daughter to finally get the white.

No, but you can skip a step if you do this, I believe that some people are getting into breeding parti's because they can make money from it. I believe that some breeders are selling parti puppies and carriers and actually encouraging people to breed them. The problem I see with one trait breeding is that they are only looking at this trait and not the other traits. For those breeders who don't do this, good for you, but I would think you can see that it is a problem. How many of you sell puppies with breeding rights? How can you know if a 12-week-old puppy is breed worthy?

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

No, but you can skip a step if you do this, I believe that some people are getting into breeding parti's because they can make money from it. I believe that some breeders are selling parti puppies and carriers and actually encouraging people to breed them. The problem I see with one trait breeding is that they are only looking at this trait and not the other traits. For those breeders who don't do this, good for you, but I would think you can see that it is a problem. How many of you sell puppies with breeding rights? How can you know if a 12-week-old puppy is breed worthy?

Still confused on your skipping a step comment...Genetically you can't (F1's, F2's etc..)

BUT I do agree with you that some breeders are into making money just like the majority of Yorkie breeders. Seriously please go to PARTI YORKSHIRE TERRIER CLUB - Home to read about the history of these dogs and the history of Yorkies around the turn of the century. Breezeaway has done an incredible job with this website..and has complete documentation on books written during this time. She has stud books and many newspaper articles that really tell the story.

I do not believe it is one gene breeding any different than the one gene breeding of Yorkies.

I don't think you can point fingers at Parti breeders or Biewer breeders without pointing fingers at Yorkie breeders..

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Still confused on your skipping a step comment...Genetically you can't (F1's, F2's etc..)

BUT I do agree with you that some breeders are into making money just like the majority of Yorkie breeders. Seriously please go to PARTI YORKSHIRE TERRIER CLUB - Home to read about the history of these dogs and the history of Yorkies around the turn of the century. Breezeaway has done an incredible job with this website..and has complete documentation on books written during this time. She has stud books and many newspaper articles that really tell the story.

I do not believe it is one gene breeding any different than the one gene breeding of Yorkies.

I don't think you can point fingers at Parti breeders or Biewer breeders without pointing fingers at Yorkie breeders..

I don't point fingers at any specific breeders, I never recommend anyone, I just say what I think is important to look for in a breeder and people can take my advice or leave it. I have read of breeders who breed father to daughter, and it is my opinion that this shouldn't be done.

Concerning one trait breeding, I'm not talking about one gene breeding and don't understand what you mean, one trait breeding is looking at only one trait and breeding for that, overlooking other important qualities. For example, I believe that teacup breeders are often one trait breeders.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I don't point fingers at any specific breeders, I never recommend anyone, I just say what I think is important to look for in a breeder and people can take my advice or leave it. I have read of breeders who breed father to daughter, and it is my opinion that this shouldn't be done.

Concerning one trait breeding, I'm not talking about one gene breeding and don't understand what you mean, one trait breeding is looking at only one trait and breeding for that, overlooking other important qualities. For example, I believe that teacup breeders are often one trait breeders.

I believe that health should be number one both physically and mentally. I believe that only experienced or very well educated (in genetics) breeders should be breeding father to daughter...I also believe people should be able to read pedigree's and not just for 3 generations...Some of the most famous lines of Yorkies were linebred/inbred which may account for the high level of LS in these dogs...that is why the Yorkshire Foundation gave a grant to Dr. Tobias to try and figure it out...Dr. Centers is now working with this issue.

What I loved with Debbie's website (LOWOOD FARM - Parti History) along with PARTI YORKSHIRE TERRIER CLUB - Home
is the books that were written from the breeding world on dogs that were thrown into the Yorkies and I love she has newspaper clippings. I see so many people say "we will never know" when Debbie has books that state what was going on. She also has tons of studbooks posted on her website that I have never seen a Yorkie breeder do.

I also get upset when breeders won't do their homework or study the health in these dogs and understand what the piebald recessive gene/irish spotting could be doing to these dogs. I get upset with Yorkie breeders that don't have a clue...

I do understand you love the standard Yorkshire Terrier.

[TammyJM]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

No, but you can skip a step if you do this, I believe that some people are getting into breeding parti's because they can make money from it. I believe that some breeders are selling parti puppies and carriers and actually encouraging people to breed them. The problem I see with one trait breeding is that they are only looking at this trait and not the other traits. For those breeders who don't do this, good for you, but I would think you can see that it is a problem. How many of you sell puppies with breeding rights? How can you know if a 12-week-old puppy is breed worthy?

Make money??? Selling parti/carriers and encouraging someone to breed them?? Nancy, you are doing a lot of assuming in this thread. I also do not know of anyone breeding like you said that the parti breeders are doing. I cannot speak for others, but NO, I did NOT sell Livi's first puppy with breeding rights...nor do I plan to with her current three. I have had people PM and ask me about the girls and selling them with full registration....I have actually discouraged them from risking their female's life and have also told them that my puppies will not be sold with full rights. As for making money......:eek : I am soooooooo far in the hole it's crazy!!!!! Just what I spent to keep Livi and her babies alive in the first week would have bought me a very nice quailty Yorkie. Not to mention, every other expense that I have had and will have.

I don't know why you seem to think that parti breeders are so awful. I get that you appreciate the standard looking Yorkie, but that does not mean those of us that love the beautiful tricolor are horrible breeders. The parti breeders that I personally know are wonderful, trustworthy people. I cannot say that about the show breeder that I purchased my traditional girl from.

[yorkielady06]

I am shocked to think that a person is so closed minded about a color and will lump all breeders of color in one category and make a blanket statement about them, yet does not recognize the horrible breeding practices that many show breeders take part in. I would look inward before pointing any fingers at anyone. As for making money, I for one have lost large quantities of money on breeding, from traditionals and from the Yorkies of color. Investing in a stud male from a reputable show breeder with great bloodlines, raising him for over a year, multiple vet bills for all the testing (eyes, knees, bile acids, etc) and normal vet items, care, food, etc... only to have a male that in my opinion is not breed worthy, neutering him and placing him for free in a loving pet home, and starting the process all over. How many of us have done that? I have more than once with males and females. Not counting the mommy checkups and xrays before the birth, the set up for the birth, sleepless nights on end, c-sections,loss of a puppy or a litter, check ups after the birth, tails, dewclaws, shots, check up before going to the new home, standing by a puppy and offering a replacement or money back if something goes wrong...and the list goes on...
I think maybe that what was trying to be said was that there are some unethical breeders out there who should not be breeding, period! Let us not point fingers at a group of breeders just because you do not care for the deviation from the standard color.
Just my opinion of course.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by TammyJM

Make money??? Selling parti/carriers and encouraging someone to breed them?? Nancy, you are doing a lot of assuming in this thread. I also do not know of anyone breeding like you said that the parti breeders are doing. I cannot speak for others, but NO, I did NOT sell Livi's first puppy with breeding rights...nor do I plan to with her current three. I have had people PM and ask me about the girls and selling them with full registration....I have actually discouraged them from risking their female's life and have also told them that my puppies will not be sold with full rights. As for making money......:eek : I am soooooooo far in the hole it's crazy!!!!! Just what I spent to keep Livi and her babies alive in the first week would have bought me a very nice quailty Yorkie. Not to mention, every other expense that I have had and will have.

I don't know why you seem to think that parti breeders are so awful. I get that you appreciate the standard looking Yorkie, but that does not mean those of us that love the beautiful tricolor are horrible breeders. The parti breeders that I personally know are wonderful, trustworthy people. I cannot say that about the show breeder that I purchased my traditional girl from.

First of all, I am glad you do not sell your dogs with breeding rights; this is one of the qualities in a breeder that I think is good. I am surprised so many of you are surprised about this though; you do realize that there are breeders who breed for profit? I'm not saying that you will ever make a dime breeding Parti's, in fact, it could turn out to be a very poor investment. I'm only saying that is the motivation factor for many. It is a fad among many breeds, not just yorkies. Not just puppy millers breed for profit. I don't think most breeders breed for the right reasons, not just parti breeders, so I'm not singling parti breeders out.

I never said that the people who breed Parti's were not nice people, their qualities as a human being has very little to do with how they breed. We all know examples of very religious wonderful people, being bad breeders. I'm concerned because so many of you seem to be in denial about the problem, you act like the only people who sell Parti's are your friends and members of Yorkietalk. I have not attacked anyone on a personal level. I wish I didn't feel so strongly about breeding to standard, and why it's important, many of you parti breeders do seem like wonderful people, I wish you wouldn't take my opinions personally. There does seem to be a conscientious group of parti breeders on this forum, however, am I supposed to change my viewpoints because I like you? I do not believe we know enough about the recessive gene yet to breed for it, many maladies attach themselves to the recessive gene, instead of denying this, I hope you keep in contact with puppy buyers, and let others know if something starts cropping up. I also don't think that the Yorkshire terrier has not been a breed long enough to introduce new colors. As a breed, it's only been around about 100 years, and not that many yorkies are being bred with a proper coat. The yorkie standard is a very difficult one to obtain, genetics wise, you need so many things working together. On the other hand, the parti color is NOT a difficult one to obtain. Once you have a parti colored dog, it cannot produce a dog without the parti gene. I guess I could see a time in the future, where it was easy to get a great healthy example of the breed, and at that point I could see why we might like to introduce more variety. I really don't see this now, I wish all breeders were more interested in health, but I don't think more variety in looks should be introduced until we get the health factor under control.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by yorkielady06

I am shocked to think that a person is so closed minded about a color and will lump all breeders of color in one category and make a blanket statement about them, yet does not recognize the horrible breeding practices that many show breeders take part in. I would look inward before pointing any fingers at anyone. As for making money, I for one have lost large quantities of money on breeding, from traditionals and from the Yorkies of color. Investing in a stud male from a reputable show breeder with great bloodlines, raising him for over a year, multiple vet bills for all the testing (eyes, knees, bile acids, etc) and normal vet items, care, food, etc... only to have a male that in my opinion is not breed worthy, neutering him and placing him for free in a loving pet home, and starting the process all over. How many of us have done that? I have more than once with males and females. Not counting the mommy checkups and xrays before the birth, the set up for the birth, sleepless nights on end, c-sections,loss of a puppy or a litter, check ups after the birth, tails, dewclaws, shots, check up before going to the new home, standing by a puppy and offering a replacement or money back if something goes wrong...and the list goes on...
I think maybe that what was trying to be said was that there are some unethical breeders out there who should not be breeding, period! Let us not point fingers at a group of breeders just because you do not care for the deviation from the standard color.
Just my opinion of course.

I have gone on record many times, saying that just because a person shows, it does not make them a good breeder. Many horrible breeders show. I do think it's very important for a breeder to understand the importance of showing and why it is necessary. When you produce a dog, you will probably not use a critical eye to evaluate it, your friends might lie to you too.

I do think you have to be extreemly careful where you buy your breeding stock from, and it's not something you can rush. Before spending money, I would want to get to know the breeders, they would have to be more than just nice wonderful people.