Help!! Cinnamon is in labor!!!!

[Happyjack]

Originally Posted by bjh

This i what it says about the side effects of Baytril:
I think the vet put her on this because he suspected a uterus infection, probably from a retained placenta. Another thing that worries me is that it says not to give in conjunction with vitamins or minerals and the vet also gave Kara Hi-Vite vitamin drops to give to the momma. I don't think this vet is very competent. I pray momma and babies will be okay.

I'm not sure where this list of side effects came from...but the FDA and Bayer have concluded when given in the proper dosage and for the correct times Baytril is safe for canines....even pregnant bitches, breeding males and puppies up to 3 months of age. Baytril should not be given to growing pups between 3 months of age until full maturity (rapid growing phase) because of possible lameness and joint problems. You can read the full study at the website below....

From the NADA 140-913 study (FDA).....no adverse effects on breeding or nursing bitches.
Baytril (enrofloxacin) Antibacterial Injectable Solution 2.27% for dogs Veterinary Information from Drugs.com
No adverse effects were observed on reproductive parameters when male dogs received 10 consecutive daily treatments of 15 mg/kg/day at 3 intervals (90, 45 and 14 days) prior to breeding or when female dogs received 10 consecutive daily treatments of 15 mg/kg/day at 4 intervals; between 30 and 0 days prior to breeding, early pregnancy (between 10th & 30th days), late pregnancy (between 40th & 60th days), and during lactation (the first 28 days). >snip

Also here is the Freedom of Information Summary for Baytril....a combined study of NADA 140-441 and NADA 140-913. Pregnant dogs were given very high doses of Baytril with no adverse effects noted. The adverse symptoms began to appear in pups over 3 months of age.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalV.../ucm115727.pdf Ouote: Conclusions: Enrofloxacin tablets have an adequate margin of safety in dogs and cats when administered over a dose range of 5 to 20 mg/kg for a maximum of 30 days.

Just thought this might be helpful for those worried about Baytril as this is the official studies done for FDA before approval for use in canines. It should only be used with serious infections. Either when another antibiotic has not worked OR if a culture determines the bacteria is sensitive to Baytril. My vet does do cultures....he gives us the antibiotic based on the apparent severity of the infection while we wait for the culture to come back. When a vet guesses which antibiotic to use....he is actually placing the dogs life in danger. Although MOST vets do not bother with cultures to determine the exact med needed.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Happyjack

I'm not sure where this list of side effects came from...but the FDA and Bayer have concluded when given in the proper dosage and for the correct times Baytril is safe for canines....even pregnant bitches, breeding males and puppies up to 3 months of age. Baytril should not be given to growing pups between 3 months of age until full maturity (rapid growing phase) because of possible lameness and joint problems. You can read the full study at the website below....

From the NADA 140-913 study (FDA).....no adverse effects on breeding or nursing bitches.
Baytril (enrofloxacin) Antibacterial Injectable Solution 2.27% for dogs Veterinary Information from Drugs.com
No adverse effects were observed on reproductive parameters when male dogs received 10 consecutive daily treatments of 15 mg/kg/day at 3 intervals (90, 45 and 14 days) prior to breeding or when female dogs received 10 consecutive daily treatments of 15 mg/kg/day at 4 intervals; between 30 and 0 days prior to breeding, early pregnancy (between 10th & 30th days), late pregnancy (between 40th & 60th days), and during lactation (the first 28 days). >snip

Also here is the Freedom of Information Summary for Baytril....a combined study of NADA 140-441 and NADA 140-913. Pregnant dogs were given very high doses of Baytril with no adverse effects noted. The adverse symptoms began to appear in pups over 3 months of age.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalV.../ucm115727.pdf Ouote: Conclusions: Enrofloxacin tablets have an adequate margin of safety in dogs and cats when administered over a dose range of 5 to 20 mg/kg for a maximum of 30 days.

Just thought this might be helpful for those worried about Baytril as this is the official studies done for FDA before approval for use in canines. It should only be used with serious infections. Either when another antibiotic has not worked OR if a culture determines the bacteria is sensitive to Baytril. My vet does do cultures....he gives us the antibiotic based on the apparent severity of the infection while we wait for the culture to come back. When a vet guesses which antibiotic to use....he is actually placing the dogs life in danger. Although MOST vets do not bother with cultures to determine the exact med needed.

I don't agree with the FDA approval or have faith in what they say. My vet who is a Reproduction Specialist, when we were fighting a major infection on my girl and he put her on a mega dose of Baytril, informed me that the pups were going to have to be hand nursed. That it would cause fading puppy syndrome. He also believes, based on his studies that breeding dogs should be taken off of heartworm meds prior to breeding and while with whelp.

[karak333]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I don't understand why the vet suspected retained placenta, wasn't a POP shot given at the vets office to assist her in whelping these puppies. I thought the pups were delivered at the vets office......mmmmmmm

Baytril has the same affect on nursing puppies as penicillin....fading puppy syndrome.

yea, I am very upset with the whole thing. if I would have deleivered the puppies I would have had a clamp on the cord so the placenta might have been able to have been pulled out and not have gone back inside her. and yes, an oxytocin shot was given to her at the beginning and at the end. I can't believe I would have probably done a better job at deleivering them than they did...

[Happyjack]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I don't agree with the FDA approval or have faith in what they say. My vet who is a Reproduction Specialist, when we were fighting a major infection on my girl and he put her on a mega dose of Baytril, informed me that the pups were going to have to be hand nursed. That it would cause fading puppy syndrome. He also believes, based on his studies that breeding dogs should be taken off of heartworm meds prior to breeding and while with whelp.

I know what most people believe...all I know is I've been using baytril for years. <g> With pregnant and nursing bitches.....and with puppies. Baytril was the only thing that saved a litter of pups for me 6 years ago when their mom died. The pups would have died also if not for Baytril.....it was the only med the bacteria was senitive to. Yes fading puppy syndrome is a serious conditon...when I've had cultures done it nearly always is an e-coli infection. And I agree....I do not give any heartworm med to a pregnant mom....either in whelp or nursing. I know the prevailing theory is to not use Baytril....but I've researched many studies and cannot find even one which suggests it is not safe. But we all do what we think is best for our dogs. <g> I'm not exactly clear on how Baytril can cause fading puppy since it is nearly always some type of infection which causes the pup to fade. At least my experience is with the necropsy's I've had done....they die from bacteria infection. <g> Like I said we all do what we feel safe with. And certainly we should be listening to our vet...as I do and I'm sure you feel safe doing also.

[karak333]

does anyone have any suggestions for trying to get Cinnamon to eat?? I have tried everything... the only thing she will eat is Ice cream. weird huh? I don't know what else to do.

[bjh]

Originally Posted by karak333

does anyone have any suggestions for trying to get Cinnamon to eat?? I have tried everything... the only thing she will eat is Ice cream. weird huh? I don't know what else to do.

Kara, I really can't think of anything else except for making the whelping pudding. Have you tried that? You definitely need to get her to another vet. How is she and the pups doing this morning?

[Sookie]

Originally Posted by karak333

does anyone have any suggestions for trying to get Cinnamon to eat?? I have tried everything... the only thing she will eat is Ice cream. weird huh? I don't know what else to do.

Kalina wouldn't eat after her puppies were born either. A dose of Nutri-Cal and her calcium pill helped turn her around. I give her that every morning. She won't take either one willingly, so I rub the Nutri-Cal on the roof of her mouth and crush the calcium pill and mix it with a little water and use an eye dropper to get it into her. My house looks like a Vet hospital right now with all the paraphernalia I have around! I tried chicken cooked every way imaginable but she didn't want that. The only thing she will eat now with gusto is her puppy kibble mixed with a little bit of sirloin. She inhales that 4X per day. To me she looks very skinny compared to before she got pregnant, but way better than she did a week after the puppies were born.

[Wend]

I had to feed mine canned puppy food. The only kind she would eat was Avoderm. It was very very wet and super soft. After a few days I started mixing in the puppy kibble and weaned the wet food out. I also cooked plain chicken breast and cut it up pretty small and offered her that. She ate it grudgingly lol.

[karak333]

well Cinnamon has been acting much better. she is very active and is walking around the house and wanting out of her whelping box. I do have a question for everyone. Cinnamon just recently has been wanting out of her whelping box so I let her out to roam around and all she does is frantically pace around the house. I finally figured out that she was looking for another place to take her babies. she found a spot and then went and grabbed one of her pups by their leg and dragged them to where she found a spot. so, now I have to shut her box so she doesn't get up and relocate her puppies. any one else have this experience? and yes, her whelping box is in a nice quiet place in my room so I don't know why she would want to move them.

[bjh]

Her behavior is perfectly normal. That is why I always have the whelping box inside a exercise pen. I am so glad she is doing better. Perhaps the spot she found was a little more private in her mind. Since her pups are almost a week old she will want to start getting out more. Thanks so much for the update.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by karak333

well Cinnamon has been acting much better. she is very active and is walking around the house and wanting out of her whelping box. I do have a question for everyone. Cinnamon just recently has been wanting out of her whelping box so I let her out to roam around and all she does is frantically pace around the house. I finally figured out that she was looking for another place to take her babies. she found a spot and then went and grabbed one of her pups by their leg and dragged them to where she found a spot. so, now I have to shut her box so she doesn't get up and relocate her puppies. any one else have this experience? and yes, her whelping box is in a nice quiet place in my room so I don't know why she would want to move them.

She's attempting to hide them. Some bitches do this. The only thing you can do is have keep her confined. Not allow her to roam. How is your whelping area set up? Are other dogs allowed to roam into the room where you keep her?

[tjdmom]

When Zoe had her pups, she would go out to potty and sneak off and start digging a hole! I swear she thought she was going to take them outside and put them in that hole! She was so focused on the pups at that time that I knew it had something to do with them. Anyways, I made sure I gave her plenty of calcium - cottage cheese, whelping pudding - and after a week or so she settled in and things were fine. But I would keep a close eye on her and make sure she can't move them.

[karak333]

no other dogs are allowed in here. I only have one other puppy, and he is 3 months old, so he is kept in another room. she wants to hide them badly. the whelping box was built so that the puppy pad that she sleeps on is very tight so the puppies can't get underneath it, but there is one little part that is exposed because the pad is quite big enough to completely cover the whole thing. I tried putting a towel down to cover the space but all she does is digs and digs and digs. she always hurts her babies when she digs because she does it right on top of them. so I removed the towel and this morning I only counted 4 puppies and I started freaking out looking for the 5th one. finally I notice it was underneath the pad! poor little thing was just crying and crying. I wonder if Cinnamon had anything to do with it... she has also been whining to get out and she jumps up and looks at me with this little whimper so I let her out and as usual all she wants to do is go under beds and scout out another place to take her puppies. she won't ever relax.

[karak333]

I also drape a blanket over the box to keep them nice a warm so I don't see why she feels a need to move them. it seems like a private area to me...

[karak333]

the box is also in my room sort of close to my bed, so I can keep an eye on them. the entrance of the box has pieces that slide out so if I remove them she can jump out but if I slide them back in she can't. they are also cut into two sections to accommodate the puppies as they get older.