Parti confussion?????

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Oh COOL! I have 10th generation splitters!!!

If you say so. I certainly cannot dispute it. Altough I'm not sure which part of my post that applies to.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by EnchantedToi

I'm not sure if this would be helpful information for anyone researching information. However, I thought I would contribute this .
When I was first getting involved with the Yorkshire Terrier and researching Biewers, I had the privilege of conversing with Terri Shumsky. She was a lovely lady and so very gracious to share her wealth of information and knowledge. Here is some information she shared with me.

terri shumsky wrote:

However, that said, there are a few breeders in United States that are breeding and registering Parti color yorkies and have been doing so for three generations.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

The AKC Rep, Florence Males, investigated the parti colors and she found that in the 70s AKC asked the parent club education chairman, Joan Gordon, if this was a possible color and Joan told them that she had come up with a tri color from breeding two normal color yorkies.
They have been registering them as Parti colors since then. I really don’t see anything wrong with it and they could always “show” them in a Variety class like other breeds do when the colors are consistent. Florence told me that if enough of them are bred that AKC would “tell” the parent club that they have to accept a “variety”.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

They do look like yorkies and quite a few people I know now are breeding them. It’s not for me to say it’s right or wrong. It’s happened in other breeds. Apparently, according to Florence, it’s not just coming from one kennel. Europe has parti color yorkies too.

Now thats the best post on partis I have seen yet! Thanks!
Of course no one has seen a parti in Europe and I am not talking about the biewer.
I just find it very hard to believe the logistics and statistics. I have seen with my own eyes how some partis are bred, registrations falsified, and AkC registered but they were actually a mix breed. Statistically there would be tons of partis being born to almost all of the exhibitor/hobby breeders in the U.S. and Canada. So where are these puppies? It seems funny that only the non exhibitor/hobby breeders have partis in frequent numbers. The numbers just dont add up.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by EnchantedToi

I'm not sure if this would be helpful information for anyone researching information. However, I thought I would contribute this .
When I was first getting involved with the Yorkshire Terrier and researching Biewers, I had the privilege of conversing with Terri Shumsky. She was a lovely lady and so very gracious to share her wealth of information and knowledge. Here is some information she shared with me.

terri shumsky wrote:

However, that said, there are a few breeders in United States that are breeding and registering Parti color yorkies and have been doing so for three generations.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

The AKC Rep, Florence Males, investigated the parti colors and she found that in the 70s AKC asked the parent club education chairman, Joan Gordon, if this was a possible color and Joan told them that she had come up with a tri color from breeding two normal color yorkies.
They have been registering them as Parti colors since then. I really don’t see anything wrong with it and they could always “show” them in a Variety class like other breeds do when the colors are consistent. Florence told me that if enough of them are bred that AKC would “tell” the parent club that they have to accept a “variety”.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

They do look like yorkies and quite a few people I know now are breeding them. It’s not for me to say it’s right or wrong. It’s happened in other breeds. Apparently, according to Florence, it’s not just coming from one kennel. Europe has parti color yorkies too.

Thank you. That bit of information speaks volumes.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by EnchantedToi

I'm not sure if this would be helpful information for anyone researching information. However, I thought I would contribute this .
When I was first getting involved with the Yorkshire Terrier and researching Biewers, I had the privilege of conversing with Terri Shumsky. She was a lovely lady and so very gracious to share her wealth of information and knowledge. Here is some information she shared with me.

terri shumsky wrote:

However, that said, there are a few breeders in United States that are breeding and registering Parti color yorkies and have been doing so for three generations.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

The AKC Rep, Florence Males, investigated the parti colors and she found that in the 70s AKC asked the parent club education chairman, Joan Gordon, if this was a possible color and Joan told them that she had come up with a tri color from breeding two normal color yorkies.
They have been registering them as Parti colors since then. I really don’t see anything wrong with it and they could always “show” them in a Variety class like other breeds do when the colors are consistent. Florence told me that if enough of them are bred that AKC would “tell” the parent club that they have to accept a “variety”.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

They do look like yorkies and quite a few people I know now are breeding them. It’s not for me to say it’s right or wrong. It’s happened in other breeds. Apparently, according to Florence, it’s not just coming from one kennel. Europe has parti color yorkies too.

God Bless You ... I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes! Finally more information confirming what we've been told.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Now thats the best post on partis I have seen yet! Thanks!
Of course no one has seen a parti in Europe and I am not talking about the biewer.
I just find it very hard to believe the logistics and statistics. I have seen with my own eyes how some partis are bred, registrations falsified, and AkC registered but they were actually a mix breed. Statistically there would be tons of partis being born to almost all of the exhibitor/hobby breeders in the U.S. and Canada. So where are these puppies? It seems funny that only the non exhibitor/hobby breeders have partis in frequent numbers. The numbers just dont add up.

Lynn,

If your championed dogs, produced parti puppies, would you make it publicly known? Or would you, keep things quiet, sell the pups without papers and not repeat that breeding? Ya really have to think about it because your reputation and years of perfecting your breeding stock and show lines could be destroyed if it became public knowledge that your lines carry these recessive genes.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Now thats the best post on partis I have seen yet! Thanks!
Of course no one has seen a parti in Europe and I am not talking about the biewer.
I just find it very hard to believe the logistics and statistics. I have seen with my own eyes how some partis are bred, registrations falsified, and AkC registered but they were actually a mix breed. Statistically there would be tons of partis being born to almost all of the exhibitor/hobby breeders in the U.S. and Canada. So where are these puppies? It seems funny that only the non exhibitor/hobby breeders have partis in frequent numbers. The numbers just dont add up.

The show breeders did have the partis showing up in their litters. they kept it secret for fear of being shunned by they YTCA. If they did not spay/neuter the offending dog, they most likely did not repeat that breeding.

The reason that we parti breeders are getting them frequently (although I have yet to produce one) is because we are breeding deliberately trying to produce them. It is no accident. And also because we openly admit to breeding for them and are more than delighted when we get them in a litter, because we don't give a rats behind what the YTCA thinks or says.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Now thats the best post on partis I have seen yet! Thanks!
Of course no one has seen a parti in Europe and I am not talking about the biewer.
I just find it very hard to believe the logistics and statistics. I have seen with my own eyes how some partis are bred, registrations falsified, and AkC registered but they were actually a mix breed. Statistically there would be tons of partis being born to almost all of the exhibitor/hobby breeders in the U.S. and Canada. So where are these puppies? It seems funny that only the non exhibitor/hobby breeders have partis in frequent numbers. The numbers just dont add up.

And are we to assume that you know and have personally interviewed every yorkie breeder in the UK? Or are you just making that assumption because none of the UK YT members have them.

[Nikki+2]

I never get involved in these threads because I am not a breeder and am not knowledgeable about breeding or genetics in any way shape or form. So why on earth am I here? Every time one of these threads come up it makes me think of a woman who used to work as a groomer in my mom's shop. She was a breeder of show standard poodles. My mom told me a story of one of her champions producing a parti and she killed the puppy. I know- I've heard of "culling" on this forum but it's usually in context of something people used to do. This was in the last 8 years or so not ancient history. I asked why on earth didn't she give it away with no papers- then it couldn't have been tracked back to her lines. The woman told my mom word would get out and she just couldn't have that- it would ruin her reputation. Now why on earth she confided all of this to my mom I have no idea. My mom was of course horrified but I guess this woman liked to talk and figured my mother had nothing to do with poodles or the show world and was safe.

This whole story is completely sickening and of course it's about poodles not yorkies but it really opened my eyes to the extremes some breeders will go to. I seriously doubt this is isolated to the poodle world.

eta: I'm certainly not suggesting anyone here would do this- I'm NOT- just sharing my story.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Lynn,

If your championed dogs, produced parti puppies, would you make it publicly known? Or would you, keep things quiet, sell the pups without papers and not repeat that breeding? Ya really have to think about it because your reputation and years of perfecting your breeding stock and show lines could be destroyed if it became public knowledge that your lines carry these recessive genes.

Actually I would make it public and tell the breeders that bred the dog in question about the problem I think any reputable breeder would want to know this info! I know that I would want to know! And if it was actually found to be in, lets say, my CH. Rowdys line and he was the one that produced the color, I would have him and any offspring that he produced that I would eventually use for breed/show neutered and spayed. I dont sell on open registration, so any puppies that I may have sold would already be fixed. But in almost 30 years of breeding Yorkies, I have never come across this fault nor know any other people that have, be it show/hobby or bybr. With the exception of three back yard breeders and I know that one was registering mixes with AkC and the others had multiple breeds.
I see no reason to keep quiet when faults are being produced, be it color or patellas, etc.
Statistically speaking, if you are saying that the parti gene's culprit is Pompy then with the thousands of crosses to him over the years must have produced at least 1/4 parti colors. The frequency is just not there.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

The show breeders did have the partis showing up in their litters. they kept it secret for fear of being shunned by they YTCA. If they did not spay/neuter the offending dog, they most likely did not repeat that breeding.

The reason that we parti breeders are getting them frequently (although I have yet to produce one) is because we are breeding deliberately trying to produce them. It is no accident. And also because we openly admit to breeding for them and are more than delighted when we get them in a litter, because we don't give a rats behind what the YTCA thinks or says.

And you have iron clad proof of this? Gee, which disgruntalled YTcA members have you personally talked to? I really dont think that the YTCA is out to "kill" its members. If they dont agree with the standard as it is written then its time to find another breed or go elswhere. You know clubs arent for everyone. some people just arent team players. And your last sentence is exactly why you will never be a reputable breeder.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Actually I would make it public and tell the breeders that bred the dog in question about the problem I think any reputable breeder would want to know this info! I know that I would want to know! And if it was actually found to be in, lets say, my CH. Rowdys line and he was the one that produced the color, I would have him and any offspring that he produced that I would eventually use for breed/show neutered and spayed. I dont sell on open registration, so any puppies that I may have sold would already be fixed. But in almost 30 years of breeding Yorkies, I have never come across this fault nor know any other people that have, be it show/hobby or bybr. With the exception of three back yard breeders and I know that one was registering mixes with AkC and the others had multiple breeds.
I see no reason to keep quiet when faults are being produced, be it color or patellas, etc.
Statistically speaking, if you are saying that the parti gene's culprit is Pompy then with the thousands of crosses to him over the years must have produced at least 1/4 parti colors. The frequency is just not there.

I commend you for your honesty and integrity, theoretically, you've just lost a good portion of what you have worked so hard for over the last 30 years, and now you basically have to start over from square 1. I can assure you though, that not all breeders will have those same feelings if it happened to them.

We now have 2 separate sources saying that Wildweir told AKC that they produced parti, yet you still have doubts that it's possible? Maybe you or someone else you trust could find out how closely related was Pomp to the Wildweir parti pups?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Lynn,

If your championed dogs, produced parti puppies, would you make it publicly known? Or would you, keep things quiet, sell the pups without papers and not repeat that breeding? Ya really have to think about it because your reputation and years of perfecting your breeding stock and show lines could be destroyed if it became public knowledge that your lines carry these recessive genes.

This is the part of your theory I have a hard time accepting. I don't think a good breeder would keep it quiet. I think she would place it in a pet only home with papers, but she wouldn't breed it, and she probably wouldn't repeat the breeding that produced it. I do believe she would tell the breeder she got the dog from, and talk to others about this. I do believe that many breeders would do this, and every good breeder would. I really don't think the show lines would be destroyed at all because according to some as a recessive trait, it wouldn't be worrisome, unless you breed two dogs with this trait. Again, if this person is worried about her lines and being shunned by the YTCA, she's isn't a good breeder, she just interested in her own pockets and not bettering the breed.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

And you have iron clad proof of this? Gee, which disgruntalled YTcA members have you personally talked to? I really dont think that the YTCA is out to "kill" its members. If they dont agree with the standard as it is written then its time to find another breed or go elswhere. You know clubs arent for everyone. some people just arent team players. And your last sentence is exactly why you will never be a reputable breeder.

What a boring world this would be if we all lived our lives by someone elses rules. There would be no creativiity at all, because to be creative you have to think outside of the box. There would be no new breeds estasblihed beyond a handful of original breeds. So dogs would all look pretty much the same. And the Yorkie would not exist.

I am a team player, but I don't always play by the rules.

I do not agree with the guidlines set down by the YTCA so therefore I went "elsewhere". I see no reason for disqualifying a dog because of it's color and don't need affirmation from the YTCA to tell me that I'm doing a good job.

I do not see that breeding off colored yorkies makes me or anyone else a bad person. I don't know what the YTCA is afraid of.

You and I have totally different opinions of what constitutes a reputable breeder. and I don't give a rats behind if you think I fit into that category or not.

I am in good company as there are a lot of fine fine breeders that do not care what the YTCA thinks. The YTCA did not create the Yorkshire Terrier, they do not own the breed. And they are wrong and foolish for disqualifying these beautiful colors that are a natural part of the Yorkshire Terrier makeup.

The statment has been posted twice, (once by someone who has had no knowledge of any of us) about the parti colors showing up in the Wildweir kennels, and the fact they kept it a secret, yet you refuse to believe it, and refuse to believe it, and mock me when I suggest that the reason no breeder admitted it is because they feared their reputations as breeders would be ruined.

I guess that makes you a better person and a more reputable breeder than Joan Gordon.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

This is the part of your theory I have a hard time accepting. I don't think a good breeder would keep it quiet. I think she would place it in a pet only home with papers, but she wouldn't breed it, and she probably wouldn't repeat the breeding that produced it. I do believe she would tell the breeder she got the dog from, and talk to others about this. I do believe that many breeders would do this, and every good breeder would. I really don't think the show lines would be destroyed at all because according to some as a recessive trait, it wouldn't be worrisome, unless you breed two dogs with this trait. Again, if this person is worried about her lines and being shunned by the YTCA, she's isn't a good breeder, she just interested in her own pockets and not bettering the breed.

Does this go for all faults? Or just the color? If a puppy is born with a slight over bite, or an ounce or two over 7 pounds, or black and gold instead of blue/tan, or a coat that isn't quite perfect. Do you spay/neuter all of those parents too, or just the ones that produce parti puppies?

I daresay if every dog was spay/neutered that produced a puppy with a disqualifying fault, there wouldn't be very many show dogs. In fact the breed would have died off a long time ago.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Nikki+2

I never get involved in these threads because I am not a breeder and am not knowledgeable about breeding or genetics in any way shape or form. So why on earth am I here? Every time one of these threads come up it makes me think of a woman who used to work as a groomer in my mom's shop. She was a breeder of show standard poodles. My mom told me a story of one of her champions producing a parti and she killed the puppy. I know- I've heard of "culling" on this forum but it's usually in context of something people used to do. This was in the last 8 years or so not ancient history. I asked why on earth didn't she give it away with no papers- then it couldn't have been tracked back to her lines. The woman told my mom word would get out and she just couldn't have that- it would ruin her reputation. Now why on earth she confided all of this to my mom I have no idea. My mom was of course horrified but I guess this woman liked to talk and figured my mother had nothing to do with poodles or the show world and was safe.


This whole story is completely sickening and of course it's about poodles not yorkies but it really opened my eyes to the extremes some breeders will go to. I seriously doubt this is isolated to the poodle world.

eta: I'm certainly not suggesting anyone here would do this- I'm NOT- just sharing my story.

To cull a puppy does not always mean it is killed. Cull means to remove it from your program. Unfortunately many do destroy them because they do not want to be found out, and unless the puppy is destroyed there is always that chance.

One would have to be very naive to believe that all show breeders spay/neuter any dog that produces a puppy with a fault.