Whelping and Fading Puppy Syndrome - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

wildcard · 01-16-2009, 08:31 AM

Brother to sister breedings mean that their genotypes are much more similar than would be dogs that are not as closely related. I don't know of anyone who purposefully does a sibling breeding because of the risks of doubling up on the genetic faults contained in those genotypes. You cannot get more closely related genetically than full siblings. Assuming that the puppies gorw up alive and well, when you place them I think you are under an obligation to be clear about the fact that their parents are full siblings and you need to be very upfront about any health issues either or both of the parents' has. Of course if they are young, that makes that difficult since many genetic diseases and disorders do not reveal themselves until the dogs are older.

Fading puppy syndrome is not a disease, but rather a description of symptoms that leads to the death of a puppy. When I think of entire litters passing, my thoughts immediately go to herpes virus, although of course there can be other causes. Herpes virus can cause absorption, mummy puppies, stillborns and also cause newborn puppies to die. Herpes virus is pretty harmless to adult dogs because their body temperature is high enough to allow them to fight it off. Herpes virus is very very common and most dogs will have it at some point in their life, and then after that first exposure they develop an immunity to it. I don't worry about it as much as many do because my girls are shown to their championships (or we give it a good effort!) before they are bred, and most likely they have been exposed to the virus at a dog show or at our local training building long before they are bred. If a dog developes an immunity to it before she is pregnant, the litter should be safe even if she is exposed to it while pregnant. If mom has not been exposed (and this is more likely to happen if your girl is not in contact with a lot of dogs in her first few years) and is therefore not immune, and the virus happens to make its way into your home during the last three weeks of her pregnancy OR the first three weeks of the newborn puppies' lives, then your litter is at risk. There is a vaccine that can be given to bitches prior to becoming pregnant, but it is not available in the US. From what I have read, if you believe that there was herpes virus exposure to a bitch with no immunity or to newborns, your best best is to keep the puppies very warm- 95 degrees is optimal for a few weeks. This means you will need to provide a way for mom to get out of that heat and you need to make sure the puppies are not getting dehydrated as well.

I know you do not need lectures right now : ) but no way, no how, are onesies enough protection to keep dogs from breeding. When I have a girl in season she is crated except for supervised time outdoors and in the house, during which time my boys are crated. When I am not home or am asleep, the female in heat is crated and also closed in a room, the boys are crated and closed in a separate room. Just some ideas for the future so this does not happen again.

As for the poster asking about having related animals that are intact, that is an interesting question. For me, my breeding program involves line breeding and out crossing, and so it benefits me to have half and full siblings, that are intact so that they might be bred to distantly related or unrelated dogs, and then subsequent generations can later be combined with their distant "cousins" at some point. For instance, say I have two unrelated "foundation" bitches. I breed one of the bitches to the father of the other bitch, and keep a bitch and a dog from that breeding. So now I have two bitches and a dog that are half siblings, the father of all three being an exceptional dog that I want to play an important part in my breeding plans. Now I would not breed the littermates obviously, and I would not breed the half brother and half sister. But, I might eventually breed their great grandchildren together, so as to optimize the dog that I am very fond of but at the same time to allow for outcrossing in the generations inbetween to maintain genetic diversity.

fannie · 01-16-2009, 09:47 AM

Very informative post.

Amazing Yorkies · 01-16-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fannie

From my understanding, a male gets his female genes from his mom. So, if you breed a brother to a sister, you're doubling up on those. That's why you're having problems.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

I went to an AKC seminar on breeding, and they explained it this way. The female is XX the male is XY. The male gets his X solely from his mother. The female pulls her XX from her Mom and Dad. Now, in a Brother-Sister breeding.. Brother (100% female chromosone is Mom's) sister (50% Mom) is a whole bunch of Mom's Chromosones, possibly causing birth defects.
It is most important NEVER to breed Mother to Son. His Female Chromosones are his mothers. Especially since you have Mom and son, and accidents are happening.
I've never seen a whole litter fade, which is just a term, not the cause, but there is several things that would cause an early loss.. Ecoli, Cocci, chilled puppies, herpes, worms, just to name a few.
I wish you luck! And I would have that male neutered yesterday!

Amazing Yorkies · 01-16-2009, 10:47 AM

I'm sorry, I also meant to offer help if there are puppies coming. There are precautions and remedies if we know the ages of the puppies that died and the symptoms.

Brodi mom · 01-16-2009, 10:56 AM

Well there is nothing to do now if you are not getting her spayed. So just wait and see what happens .. when they are born keep them warm and have kero syrup handy and make sure they nurse...Good luck.... I had a friend that had that to happen to her 3 times and hers was fine...then she had the money to fix them..Also if you are low on cash for the vet bill SPCA sometime will do it for free or a small charge..Good Luck

Trixter · 01-16-2009, 11:20 AM

Wildcard, Is the Herpes Virus the Human Virus? And if so, how can it be transmitted to the Bitch? CamilleHy< I hope your Mom and babies are okay!

wildcard · 01-16-2009, 11:31 AM

Nope it is different, it is a canine version for dogs and I think wolves can get it. My understanding is that it is usually transmitted by physical contact- sniffing, licking, or sexual contact, but there is a possibility it can be airborne, but I would think the dogs would have to be in pretty close contact for that because it is not a hearty virus. Best way to avoid problems is to keep bitches and litters isolated for about 3 weeks prior and 3 weeks after they are born. Once they are over 3 weeks most puppies can develop a fever to kill it off.

Usually a bitch develops an immunity to it and so if the first litter is affected, subsequent litters will not be, BUT I recently read that there is a possibility of a carrier status where a bitch can acquire and then maintain the virus without building up an immunity, but I am not sure how that actually works. I would think one way to know if that is the case with a particular bitch would be to titer test for it, something I would probably do if my bitch lost a litter to the virus but I wanted to breed her again.

CamilleHy · 01-16-2009, 01:40 PM

I just want to thank you all for your input, expertise, concern and support. I truly appreciate it! Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am rather new to this so please bear with me.

One of you asked how old the puppy was when it died - it was about a week old. Was doing great until it stopped eating. There was a total of 2 pups in the litter and the first one was still born. It also seems harder to take care of only one baby - they don't have any other pups to warm up to and cuddle.

By the way, my Scruffy weighs about 3 lbs. She did well last time - even though one of the pups came out feet first.

Also, thanks for sharing your stories with me regarding your experiences with your yorkies "in heat."

Ladyhawk · 01-16-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamilleHy

I just want to thank you all for your input, expertise, concern and support. I truly appreciate it! Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am rather new to this so please bear with me.

One of you asked how old the puppy was when it died - it was about a week old. Was doing great until it stopped eating. There was a total of 2 pups in the litter and the first one was still born. It also seems harder to take care of only one baby - they don't have any other pups to warm up to and cuddle.

By the way, my Scruffy weighs about 3 lbs. She did well last time - even though one of the pups came out feet first.

Also, thanks for sharing your stories with me regarding your experiences with your yorkies "in heat."

So you really did mean tiny! I feel like you're really playing with fire here. I hope that things go well but I strongly encourage you to not let this happen to your little gal again. With each genetic shuffle you're playing russian roulette. Please think of her and the pups and get her neutered so that she's out of danger.

CamilleHy · 01-16-2009, 01:54 PM

Hi Tami. I know, I know. I feel really bad about it. As I said before, my husband is recovering from a kidney transplant - and I have 3 teenagers as well. I know there really isn't an excuse - I just want to do what is best for mom and the pups - if there is such a thing now. Believe me, she will be spayed after this....

bjh · 01-16-2009, 03:07 PM

I think having a heating pad is essential when you have a litter of pups, especially in the winter time. If you don't have one then I recommend you get one before the pups are born. The one I use is specifically for puppies and it keeps the temperature around 100 degrees.

scrapindee · 01-16-2009, 04:05 PM

And you want a heating pad that does not turn off. Walgreen's has the heating pads that stay on continuously.

CamilleHy · 01-16-2009, 08:57 PM

Thanks for the heating pad info - I have to say that I am totally on top on that one. I used heating pad for 3 other litters - they work great!

CamilleHy · 01-16-2009, 09:01 PM

Also, I want you all to know that I am going to keep you posted on my babies. Due date is around Feb 1. I think I may even jump "online" when she goes into labor so that you all can help me out if I need it!

amandawash · 01-17-2009, 11:04 AM

I understand you have a lot going on in your life right now, and don't need lectures, but this really upsets me.

I sincerely hope that you do not plan on selling these puppies.

01-16-2009, 09:47 AM	#17
fannie Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,693	Very informative post. __________________ Steph, Mama to 6 skin babies and beautiful yorkies!

01-16-2009, 10:47 AM	#19
Amazing Yorkies YT Featured Breeder Donating Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,552	I'm sorry, I also meant to offer help if there are puppies coming. There are precautions and remedies if we know the ages of the puppies that died and the symptoms. __________________ Deb Sillers 816-261-8734 Cell ~ www.Amazingyorkies.com ~

01-16-2009, 11:20 AM	#21
Trixter YT Addict Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Connecticut Posts: 257	Wildcard, Is the Herpes Virus the Human Virus? And if so, how can it be transmitted to the Bitch? CamilleHy< I hope your Mom and babies are okay! Last edited by Trixter; 01-16-2009 at 11:22 AM. Reason: Added a line

01-16-2009, 04:05 PM	#27
scrapindee Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Redlands Posts: 4,842 Blog Entries: 2	And you want a heating pad that does not turn off. Walgreen's has the heating pads that stay on continuously. __________________ Scrapindee--Team Furry & the Biewers www.houseofwags.com

01-17-2009, 11:04 AM	#30
amandawash Lovin' my R & R Donating Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Middleton, Idaho Posts: 2,152	I understand you have a lot going on in your life right now, and don't need lectures, but this really upsets me. I sincerely hope that you do not plan on selling these puppies. __________________ Amanda 's Ranger & Ryder

01-16-2009, 08:31 AM	#16
wildcard Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 236	Brother to sister breedings mean that their genotypes are much more similar than would be dogs that are not as closely related. I don't know of anyone who purposefully does a sibling breeding because of the risks of doubling up on the genetic faults contained in those genotypes. You cannot get more closely related genetically than full siblings. Assuming that the puppies gorw up alive and well, when you place them I think you are under an obligation to be clear about the fact that their parents are full siblings and you need to be very upfront about any health issues either or both of the parents' has. Of course if they are young, that makes that difficult since many genetic diseases and disorders do not reveal themselves until the dogs are older. Fading puppy syndrome is not a disease, but rather a description of symptoms that leads to the death of a puppy. When I think of entire litters passing, my thoughts immediately go to herpes virus, although of course there can be other causes. Herpes virus can cause absorption, mummy puppies, stillborns and also cause newborn puppies to die. Herpes virus is pretty harmless to adult dogs because their body temperature is high enough to allow them to fight it off. Herpes virus is very very common and most dogs will have it at some point in their life, and then after that first exposure they develop an immunity to it. I don't worry about it as much as many do because my girls are shown to their championships (or we give it a good effort!) before they are bred, and most likely they have been exposed to the virus at a dog show or at our local training building long before they are bred. If a dog developes an immunity to it before she is pregnant, the litter should be safe even if she is exposed to it while pregnant. If mom has not been exposed (and this is more likely to happen if your girl is not in contact with a lot of dogs in her first few years) and is therefore not immune, and the virus happens to make its way into your home during the last three weeks of her pregnancy OR the first three weeks of the newborn puppies' lives, then your litter is at risk. There is a vaccine that can be given to bitches prior to becoming pregnant, but it is not available in the US. From what I have read, if you believe that there was herpes virus exposure to a bitch with no immunity or to newborns, your best best is to keep the puppies very warm- 95 degrees is optimal for a few weeks. This means you will need to provide a way for mom to get out of that heat and you need to make sure the puppies are not getting dehydrated as well. I know you do not need lectures right now : ) but no way, no how, are onesies enough protection to keep dogs from breeding. When I have a girl in season she is crated except for supervised time outdoors and in the house, during which time my boys are crated. When I am not home or am asleep, the female in heat is crated and also closed in a room, the boys are crated and closed in a separate room. Just some ideas for the future so this does not happen again. As for the poster asking about having related animals that are intact, that is an interesting question. For me, my breeding program involves line breeding and out crossing, and so it benefits me to have half and full siblings, that are intact so that they might be bred to distantly related or unrelated dogs, and then subsequent generations can later be combined with their distant "cousins" at some point. For instance, say I have two unrelated "foundation" bitches. I breed one of the bitches to the father of the other bitch, and keep a bitch and a dog from that breeding. So now I have two bitches and a dog that are half siblings, the father of all three being an exceptional dog that I want to play an important part in my breeding plans. Now I would not breed the littermates obviously, and I would not breed the half brother and half sister. But, I might eventually breed their great grandchildren together, so as to optimize the dog that I am very fond of but at the same time to allow for outcrossing in the generations inbetween to maintain genetic diversity.

01-16-2009, 10:56 AM	#20
Brodi mom Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Charlottesville virginia Posts: 171	Well there is nothing to do now if you are not getting her spayed. So just wait and see what happens .. when they are born keep them warm and have kero syrup handy and make sure they nurse...Good luck.... I had a friend that had that to happen to her 3 times and hers was fine...then she had the money to fix them..Also if you are low on cash for the vet bill SPCA sometime will do it for free or a small charge..Good Luck

01-16-2009, 11:31 AM	#22
wildcard Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 236	Nope it is different, it is a canine version for dogs and I think wolves can get it. My understanding is that it is usually transmitted by physical contact- sniffing, licking, or sexual contact, but there is a possibility it can be airborne, but I would think the dogs would have to be in pretty close contact for that because it is not a hearty virus. Best way to avoid problems is to keep bitches and litters isolated for about 3 weeks prior and 3 weeks after they are born. Once they are over 3 weeks most puppies can develop a fever to kill it off. Usually a bitch develops an immunity to it and so if the first litter is affected, subsequent litters will not be, BUT I recently read that there is a possibility of a carrier status where a bitch can acquire and then maintain the virus without building up an immunity, but I am not sure how that actually works. I would think one way to know if that is the case with a particular bitch would be to titer test for it, something I would probably do if my bitch lost a litter to the virus but I wanted to breed her again.

01-16-2009, 01:40 PM	#23
CamilleHy Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 11	I just want to thank you all for your input, expertise, concern and support. I truly appreciate it! Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am rather new to this so please bear with me. One of you asked how old the puppy was when it died - it was about a week old. Was doing great until it stopped eating. There was a total of 2 pups in the litter and the first one was still born. It also seems harder to take care of only one baby - they don't have any other pups to warm up to and cuddle. By the way, my Scruffy weighs about 3 lbs. She did well last time - even though one of the pups came out feet first. Also, thanks for sharing your stories with me regarding your experiences with your yorkies "in heat."

01-16-2009, 01:54 PM	#25
CamilleHy Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 11	Hi Tami. I know, I know. I feel really bad about it. As I said before, my husband is recovering from a kidney transplant - and I have 3 teenagers as well. I know there really isn't an excuse - I just want to do what is best for mom and the pups - if there is such a thing now. Believe me, she will be spayed after this....

01-16-2009, 03:07 PM	#26
bjh Donating YT 5000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 7,959	I think having a heating pad is essential when you have a litter of pups, especially in the winter time. If you don't have one then I recommend you get one before the pups are born. The one I use is specifically for puppies and it keeps the temperature around 100 degrees.

01-16-2009, 08:57 PM	#28
CamilleHy Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 11	Thanks for the heating pad info - I have to say that I am totally on top on that one. I used heating pad for 3 other litters - they work great!

01-16-2009, 09:01 PM	#29
CamilleHy Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 11	Also, I want you all to know that I am going to keep you posted on my babies. Due date is around Feb 1. I think I may even jump "online" when she goes into labor so that you all can help me out if I need it!