The Great Debate..."Breeder" or "Backyard Breeder"

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Marc

Ok, I'm going to throw out another scenario and see if it helps in terms of the topic of a breeders "pet quality" and an owners "pet quality litter.


If I am walking along and come across 2 booths set up. There is no advertising other than that both booths are selling Yorkies....I can't tell that one is a "breeder" of Yorkies and that the other is a owner who bred to Yorkies...pups all look the same. Do you think it would matter to me in terms of adding to the pet population that booth "A" came from a breeder and booth "B" came from a owner? Either booth has pet quality pups that now in this world and need a good home. No?

In your hypothetical scenario, it should matter to you. A 'breeder' as opposed to an 'owner with pups' should know more about the health and quality of the pups. This 'should' give you more confidence but there are 'knowledgeable' breeders that just don't care so you're back at square one. The Yorkie world is full of contradictions and every buyer should be as informed as possible prior to shopping for one. Pedigree, show or pet quality or any other determining factor all fall to the wayside if you purchase an unhealthy puppy. Price alone is no factor as some unethical breeders will jack up the price of their pups to make you think you're getting a 'quality' pup. Also, some will tell you what they think you want to hear in order to 'make a sale'. There are many members here who, though they love their babies to death, have bought a pup that was completely mis-represented to them. As in all things, buyer beware.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by T Doll

Ok, so now that you have done what you intended to do with this thread, why keep continuing the with the rebuttals? People have given you their thoughts, and you have countered and kept bringing up the same points and questions over and over. What are you hoping to accomplish with it? You've asked your questions and you've received your answers. Now, take them into serious consideration instead of pretending that you're doing YT any justice with this little "non-heated" thread.

I'm not pretending nothing. I started the thread. People like it or they don't but there is no gun to yours or anyone else's head that makes them post in here. This is supposed to be civil.

I disagree. There is much more to talk about from both sides and much more to learn. I don't think it's even started really....not till breeders actually "hear" the other side and see where they are coming from....and vise versa.

[yorkiekist]

[quote=Marc;2002403]

Originally Posted by Mom2BabyNatalie

If I asked the questions and got the breeders response on how she goes about her practices...and then talked to the owner who has the same vet checks for her pups then it wouldn't matter to me at all. If both litters are healthy and both pure Yorkies....then both litters of "pets" are contributing to the population.

I dont see how a responsible ethical breeder is adding to the pet populatuion as most pet quality pups are already spoken for and would not be in a booth. They are sometimes already spayed/neutered and are on contracts forS/N/AKClimited and are not for breeding purposes. Most of these breedes give a kifetime guarantee and will take the pup back if for some reason the owners cant keep it. The pet breeder usually has no contract, does not want the puppy back and does not have breeding restrictions. This IS contributing to the pet population as most buyers will want to breed the dog, reasons being, to re-coup the original price, show the children the "miricle of birth", or just to make a few $$$$. those are some of my thoughts.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

In your hypothetical scenario, it should matter to you. A 'breeder' as opposed to an 'owner with pups' should know more about the health and quality of the pups. This 'should' give you more confidence but there are 'knowledgeable' breeders that just don't care so you're back at square one. The Yorkie world is full of contradictions and every buyer should be as informed as possible prior to shopping for one. Pedigree, show or pet quality or any other determining factor all fall to the wayside if you purchase an unhealthy puppy. Price alone is no factor as some unethical breeders will jack up the price of their pups to make you think you're getting a 'quality' pup. Also, some will tell you what they think you want to hear in order to 'make a sale'. There are many members here who, though they love their babies to death, have bought a pup that was completely mis-represented to them. As in all things, buyer beware.

I have to say that I think the notion that Yorkies that don't come from a breeder are right aways unhealthy. That comment doesn't fly with me at all. A pup from a breeder who ends up as a pet is just as at risk of health issues than a responsible owner who has pet pups.

[Marc]

[quote=yorkiekist;2002431]

Originally Posted by Marc

I dont see how a responsible ethical breeder is adding to the pet populatuion as most pet quality pups are already spoken for and would not be in a booth. They are sometimes already spayed/neutered and are on contracts forS/N/AKClimited and are not for breeding purposes. Most of these breedes give a kifetime guarantee and will take the pup back if for some reason the owners cant keep it. The pet breeder usually has no contract, does not want the puppy back and does not have breeding restrictions. This IS contributing to the pet population as most buyers will want to breed the dog, reasons being, to re-coup the original price, show the children the "miricle of birth", or just to make a few $$$$. those are some of my thoughts.

The minute a litter of ANY pups are born they are contributing to the dog population when there are shelters full of unwanted pups. That can't really be argued. When 5 pups are born....that's 5 more the world has in it.

[yorkiekist]

[quote=Marc;2002437]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

The minute a litter of ANY pups are born they are contributing to the dog population when there are shelters full of unwanted pups. That can't really be argued. When 5 pups are born....that's 5 more the world has in it.

The shelters are not full of well bred great quality Yorkies. Are you saying that the population should only have a choice to get a dog from a shelter?
so, why, exactly, do you have a Yorkie instead of just adopting form the pound????There is always a demand for a great quality Yorkie, and not just for breeding. People should not be required to go to a shelter to adopt some elses problem, mistake or un-educated endeavor.

[Marc]

[quote=yorkiekist;2002450]

Originally Posted by Marc

The shelters are not full of well bred great quality Yorkies. Are you saying that the population should only have a choice to get a dog from a shelter?
so, why, exactly, do you have a Yorkie instead of just adopting form the pound????There is always a demand for a great quality Yorkie, and not just for breeding. People should not be required to go to a shelter to adopt some elses problem, mistake or un-educated endeavor.

Of course I am not saying that a persons only choice is to go to a shelter. I will say this again...I am debating on the other side. I used that scenario because breeders seem to think that cause they are responsible breeders that they are simply not contributing to the pet population...when indeed they are...quality or not. Just like any owner would be.

I have a yorkie because I wanted one. I will say this AGAIN...I am not against breeding OR getting from a shelter. This is a debate.

[feminvstr]

Originally Posted by Marc

Ok, I'm going to throw out another scenario and see if it helps in terms of the topic of a breeders "pet quality" and an owners "pet quality litter.


If I am walking along and come across 2 booths set up. There is no advertising other than that both booths are selling Yorkies....I can't tell that one is a "breeder" of Yorkies and that the other is a owner who bred to Yorkies...pups all look the same. Do you think it would matter to me in terms of adding to the pet population that booth "A" came from a breeder and booth "B" came from a owner? Either booth has pet quality pups that now in this world and need a good home. No?

As you said "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" the standard is set. To deciminate which pup is better is knowing the standard and knowing it well. A puppy buyer will look at the overall puppy not taking it apart to see how it stands up to the standard. The puppy buyer should always use the parents as their guide, how the dam/sire adhere to the standard, the parents are the mirror to what that puppy will mature to. If either or both dam/sire has three faults then it should not be bred, plain and simple!

poor proportionate structure (too long bodied and too short legged or opposite)
poor disposition (either timid or aggressive)
poor bite (over or undershot)
poor ear size (large and or thick)
poor ear set (wide spread)
poor coat quality (modified)
poor eye set (wall eyed, wide spread, bead eye)
poor head structure (oversized)
poor muzzle length (too long, too narrow)
poor topline (roach back, down on the shoulder, down on the butt)
poor leg structure and gait

[T Doll]

Originally Posted by Marc

I'm not pretending nothing. I started the thread. People like it or they don't but there is no gun to yours or anyone else's head that makes them post in here. This is supposed to be civil.

I disagree. There is much more to talk about from both sides and much more to learn. I don't think it's even started really....not till breeders actually "hear" the other side and see where they are coming from....and vise versa.

It's funny that you say there's more to talk about from "both" sides. In this entire thread, it seems like it's everyone else's side versus yours.

I never said nor implied that I, or anybody else, have been forced to post in this thread. I'm just voicing my opinion, which is apparently what you wanted out of this thread, is it not? It seems like no matter how many opinions and answers you receive here, you're not going to be happy with them. You just want to find something to justify breeding your girl, even though it's clear that you shouldn't.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Marc

I have to say that I think the notion that Yorkies that don't come from a breeder are right aways unhealthy. That comment doesn't fly with me at all. A pup from a breeder who ends up as a pet is just as at risk of health issues than a responsible owner who has pet pups.

You're missing the point. An owner that just decides to breed their dog could easily sell a puppy with health problems out of ignorance. This is less likely to happen from a breeder, at least an honest one. The owner is responsible in maintaining the pup's health but you shouldn't be put in the position of buying an unhealthy puppy. The knowledge a breeder SHOULD have makes it less likely tho issues can arise even with an ethical breeder. If that were to occur, a breeder should stand behind the health of the puppy. Do you really think that would happen with an owner that just bred their dog with no real thought or intent? If you want to debate fairly, at least get real. There is no iron-clad guarantee with any living thing that a health issue won't arise. It's how it's handled that makes the difference. Breeders are at least aware of the potential whereas someone just breeding their dog casually (generally) is ignorant of it.

[RebelBelle]

Originally Posted by Marc

Ok, I'm going to throw out another scenario and see if it helps in terms of the topic of a breeders "pet quality" and an owners "pet quality litter.


If I am walking along and come across 2 booths set up. There is no advertising other than that both booths are selling Yorkies....I can't tell that one is a "breeder" of Yorkies and that the other is a owner who bred to Yorkies...pups all look the same. Do you think it would matter to me in terms of adding to the pet population that booth "A" came from a breeder and booth "B" came from a owner? Either booth has pet quality pups that now in this world and need a good home. No?

I wouldn't buy any puppy from a booth. I don't believe that choosing a pet is a decision that should be made on a whim. Nor do I think that an ethical, experienced, responsible breeder would ever sell their puppies to the first person who happened into a booth with the cash.

To be honest with you, the breeders have every right to "go easier" and "be more encouraging" on those with cute puppy pictures and and coat dilemmas in other sections because those people are just showing off their PETS. Now when you come down to the breeders section, and say "hey I'm thinking about breeding my unregistered pet quality yorkie" things are clearly going to go differently. Because at that point they are no longer helping you decide which shampoo to use on your puppy, but rather explaining to you the life altering ramifications and expectations of breeding a living breathing being.

Please know that unlike you, I am now definitely heated as are several other members, I'm sure. I have nothing to gain from being on one "side" or another of this debate. The devil's advocate defense only carries you so far.

[feminvstr]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

You're missing the point. An owner that just decides to breed their dog could easily sell a puppy with health problems out of ignorance. This is less likely to happen from a breeder, at least an honest one. The owner is responsible in maintaining the pup's health but you shouldn't be put in the position of buying an unhealthy puppy. The knowledge a breeder SHOULD have makes it less likely tho issues can arise even with an ethical breeder. If that were to occur, a breeder should stand behind the health of the puppy. Do you really think that would happen with an owner that just bred their dog with no real thought or intent? If you want to debate fairly, at least get real. There is no iron-clad guarantee with any living thing that a health issue won't arise. It's how it's handled that makes the difference. Breeders are at least aware of the potential whereas someone just breeding their dog casually (generally) is ignorant of it.

well said

hypothetical scenario - pet breeder breeds litter (because they wanted another puppy and decided to place the rest and will perhaps not breed again) all look healthy and happy, place said puppies...6 months later one puppy gets sick and dies, where is the pet breeder then? Will they answer the buyers calls, will they refund the buyer the vet expenses, will they or are they capable in replacing said puppy? This is why a puppy buyer needs to be informed and trust that the breeder not only is ethical in his/her breeding practices but will be around when a puppy owner needs help not just breeding to pay for the summer vacation!

[Tx2Stepn]

[quote=Marc;2002437]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

The minute a litter of ANY pups are born they are contributing to the dog population when there are shelters full of unwanted pups. That can't really be argued. When 5 pups are born....that's 5 more the world has in it.

Most people who want a pure bred Yorkie are not going to go to the shelter to get one, but I have been in contact w/ our rescues here for over 4 years to help them place Yorkies or Maltese even if they are mixed breeds. To this date I have not been contacted even once.

[T Doll]

Originally Posted by RebelBelle

I wouldn't buy any puppy from a booth. I don't believe that choosing a pet is a decision that should be made on a whim. Nor do I think that an ethical, experienced, responsible breeder would ever sell their puppies to the first person who happened into a booth with the cash.

To be honest with you, the breeders have every right to "go easier" and "be more encouraging" on those with cute puppy pictures and and coat dilemmas in other sections because those people are just showing off their PETS. Now when you come down to the breeders section, and say "hey I'm thinking about breeding my unregistered pet quality yorkie" things are clearly going to go differently. Because at that point they are no longer helping you decide which shampoo to use on your puppy, but rather explaining to you the life altering ramifications and expectations of breeding a living breathing being.

Please know that unlike you, I am now definitely heated as are several other members, I'm sure. I have nothing to gain from being on one "side" or another of this debate. The devil's advocate defense only carries you so far.

[Diego]

I am a pet yorkie owner , all mine are rescued . I had them spayed and neutered . I sincerly think that peoples should be more responsible when they decide to put a litter in this world , responsability don't stop when all pups are in new homes , responsability is during the entire life of the little one .