Contracts -- Buyer Beware of These!

[dudley1984]

[quote=Brooklynn;1848990]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

That's why my contract says grade 4....in an injury for an 8 month old puppy it would be a grade lower and if it's a grade 4 at 8 months it wouldn't in my opinion be from an injury. But also, my contract says does not include LP from an injury...I hope that makes sense

I'll have to re-read your posts to follow what you're saying. I haven't had any leave home with patella problems and honestly don't know what I'd do with a puppy that had a problem. Probably some kind of "as is" arrangement with a buyer...I want to do the right thing, and i think most people are reasonable enough, but there are a lot out there who'll rob you blind...My guarantee was worded too loosely and I didn't want to argue with the lady so I wrote a check to make her quietly go away...

[Brooklynn]

This is just part of my contract...but can also be tweeked if necessary

THIS BREEDER WILL REPLACE THIS DOG OR REFUND TOTAL PURCHASE AMOUNT IF SAID PUPPY DIES OR HAS ANY COVERED HEREDITARY PROBLEMS IF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE MET. Buyer must consult with Breeder within 24 hours of any illness and follow advice of a licensed Veterinarian. Under no circumstances is Seller to be held responsible for medical services not authorized by the Seller. Buyer must have an autopsy performed by an impartial Veterinarian in the buyer's area or Breeder's Vet of choice within 24 hours of death at buyer’s expense.
Conditions covered for one year: Stage 4 (not caused by injury) Subluxed Patellas and Leggs-Calves Perthes. Conditions covered for three years: Collapsing Trachea, Congenital Heart Disease, Congenital Deafness, Renal Dysplasia, Hypoplasia, Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) and Liver Shunt.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

Well, until last month my guarantee was against "serious congenital defect." Then a customer showed up wanting money for patella surgery for an 8 month old dog that she admits started limping after a bad jump off the bed. I wrote a check and immediately changed my guarantee. My puppies get at least two through vet checkups before leaving my home, then the purchaser has another 48 hours to get their own checkup done. Any problems they can return the puppy immediately for full refund. After that it goes to the one year guarantee for life-threatening congenital defects (e.g.liver shunt). Sorry folks, but I don't want to leave myself open for abuse and arguments with customers who don't know the difference between disease and accident...

well, if you knew it wasn't congenital and was in fact injury (and the buyer admitted it), why would you pay for it? No buyer can abuse you unless you allow it to happen...

I won't buy from a breeder that only guarantees against "life threatening" defects...I understand the breeder must be protected but the buyer and puppy must be protected too. It's sad that breeders AND buyers just can't be ethical and honest...then there wouldn't have to be such controversy over contracts

[dudley1984]

[QUOTE=Brooklynn;1849025]This is just part of my contract...but can also be tweeked if necessary

Thanks, that's very helpful. How would a puppy get to grade 4 lp without your knowing about it before it left home? Ditto deafness, blindness---wouldn't there be evidence of disease pretty early on?

[dudley1984]

[QUOTE=MyFairLacy;1849042]well, if you knew it wasn't congenital and was in fact injury (and the buyer admitted it), why would you pay for it? No buyer can abuse you unless you allow it to happen...

Her vet told her that the puppy was genetically predisposed to injury and should call the breeder...Believe me I agonized over this one, wanting to do the right thing without being a sucker. Today I would be better prepared to defend myself. I understand your wanting a better guarantee than "life-threatening," but that is where it is golden to have a good reputation in one's own locale.

[Brooklynn]

[quote=dudley1984;1849053]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

This is just part of my contract...but can also be tweeked if necessary

Thanks, that's very helpful. How would a puppy get to grade 4 lp without your knowing about it before it left home? Ditto deafness, blindness---wouldn't there be evidence of disease pretty early on?

Because it was born with the congential defect and would show up early in life. That's why I have said a grade 4 within a year of it's life is genetic and therefore congential and not from an injury. Most genetic health issues do show up early in life that is why I guarantee for 3 years instead of one. I want to know if something were to pop up but then again that's why I health test and know my dogs lines.
I've actually had to start over with Cammie and Radar because Brooklynn was my first breeding bitch before I did more extensive research and was the beginning for me and she has LP and produced an LP puppy so therefore she's spayed and every one else she's produced is spayed and neutered even my first homebred champion. So out of the 3 litters she did have she and only one young puppy shows LP and I'm thankful but the lines are stopped period!
I know LP isn't "life threatening" but I'm an ethical breeder and responsible and therefore I hide nothing

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

well, if you knew it wasn't congenital and was in fact injury (and the buyer admitted it), why would you pay for it? No buyer can abuse you unless you allow it to happen...

Her vet told her that the puppy was genetically predisposed to injury and should call the breeder...Believe me I agonized over this one, wanting to do the right thing without being a sucker. Today I would be better prepared to defend myself. I understand your wanting a better guarantee than "life-threatening," but that is where it is golden to have a good reputation in one's own locale.

It's really hard to trust a breeder though. There are many show breeders that I hear rave reviews about from many..everything SEEMS legit and reputable at first...but then you find out it's really not. It is VERY difficult to find an ethical breeder..I really don't think there are many out there. So it's hard for me to trust on reputation alone (although it helps some )

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Because it was born with the congential defect and would show up early in life. That's why I have said a grade 4 within a year of it's life is genetic and therefore congential and not from an injury. Most genetic health issues do show up early in life that is why I guarantee for 3 years instead of one. I want to know if something were to pop up but then again that's why I health test and know my dogs lines.
I've actually had to start over with Cammie and Radar because Brooklynn was my first breeding bitch before I did more extensive research and was the beginning for me and she has LP and produced an LP puppy so therefore she's spayed and every one else she's produced is spayed and neutered even my first homebred champion. So out of the 3 litters she did have she and only one young puppy shows LP and I'm thankful but the lines are stopped period!
I know LP isn't "life threatening" but I'm an ethical breeder and responsible and therefore I hide nothing

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

It's possible for even the best breeders to have something go wrong...it's what the breeder does after that shows whether they are ethical or not

LP isn't life-threatening but it isn't something to purposely produce either. Luckily Lacy hasn't had any pain or limping yet, but I cringe everytime I feel that patella pop out of place

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

It's possible for even the best breeders to have something go wrong...it's what the breeder does after that shows whether they are ethical or not

LP isn't life-threatening but it isn't something to purposely produce either. Luckily Lacy hasn't had any pain or limping yet, but I cringe everytime I feel that patella pop out of place

Breeders aren't perfect and your right it's what they do after it's discovered to whether or not they are ethical or not To me LP is just as serious as LS in my breeding and showing program.

[dudley1984]

[QUOTE=Brooklynn;1849089]Breeders aren't perfect and your right...

Sorry to sound dense here, but i'm still hung up on the puppy leaving home at 12 weeks with tight patellas and you guarantee it won't go to grade 4 within a year. So, there's no guarantee if it goes to grade 1,2,or 3? Believe me, I'm just trying to follow this.

[dudley1984]

[QUOTE=MyFairLacy;1849070]It's really hard to trust a breeder though.

But you're in puppy mill country. There are very few of us here and the bad ones don't last...word get around too fast.

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

But you're in puppy mill country. There are very few of us here and the bad ones don't last...word get around too fast.

oh, I'm talking about all over the US and Canada..I certainly don't limit my puppy search to Texas. It's very easy to fly to where a breeder lives. And there are well known show breeders that are not as reputable as they initally appear to be....even some that have been around for decades. There are several well-known show breeders I might have initially inquired to...have heard good things from several people, but then I found out more information and would no longer buy from them. So reputation alone isn't enough for me.

[Brooklynn]

[quote=dudley1984;1849098]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Breeders aren't perfect and your right...

Sorry to sound dense here, but i'm still hung up on the puppy leaving home at 12 weeks with tight patellas and you guarantee it won't go to grade 4 within a year. So, there's no guarantee if it goes to grade 1,2,or 3? Believe me, I'm just trying to follow this.

Ok I'll explain at least in my opinion later this evening when I reach Houston LOL...I'm heading out to a dog show but will have lap top LOL

It's ok I welcome the questions and will answer to the best of my knowledge and I don't see any dense

Donna

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

It's really hard to trust a breeder though. There are many show breeders that I hear rave reviews about from many..everything SEEMS legit and reputable at first...but then you find out it's really not. It is VERY difficult to find an ethical breeder..I really don't think there are many out there. So it's hard for me to trust on reputation alone (although it helps some )

You say that it's hard to trust breeders but I've been on both sides of this coin and I know that it's hard to trust buyers as well. Everytime you turn around you run into someone who wants something for nothing. They tell you one thing before they leave your home with signed contract in hand and than call a week later demanding that the terms be changed. When you refuse you are so mean and they can't believe you are treating them this way. They breed without your permission, refuse to keep in touch, feed incorrectly and than cry when the dog has pancreatitis ( a friend of mine's dog). I purchased a dog that ended up with Legge-Perthes. The breeder honored the spoken contract and I got a replacement puppy after I fulfilled my end of the bargain. There was no reason not to get another pup from her. It was from a different breeding, she was an honest business woman, the replacement pup is from a line that I want as part of my foundation. I do not think of the dog that had Legge-Perthes as defective, she just had a problem that kept her from doing what I purchased her for which was showing and breeding. I'm a new breeder and my first litter is not yet 2 years old. I have had no health issues and have had some buyers that I now count as friends. The honest truth is breeding is more difficult than I ever dreamt it would be and to quote a very well known breeder (had a top 5 yorkie last year) " it's not the dogs that make it difficult, they are a joy, it's dealing with the stupid people!" There are alot of us responsible breeders out here working our butts off, you just don't know the half of it!

[JCarlson2004]

[quote=Brooklynn;1849069]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

Because it was born with the congential defect and would show up early in life. That's why I have said a grade 4 within a year of it's life is genetic and therefore congential and not from an injury. Most genetic health issues do show up early in life that is why I guarantee for 3 years instead of one. I want to know if something were to pop up but then again that's why I health test and know my dogs lines.
I've actually had to start over with Cammie and Radar because Brooklynn was my first breeding bitch before I did more extensive research and was the beginning for me and she has LP and produced an LP puppy so therefore she's spayed and every one else she's produced is spayed and neutered even my first homebred champion. So out of the 3 litters she did have she and only one young puppy shows LP and I'm thankful but the lines are stopped period!
I know LP isn't "life threatening" but I'm an ethical breeder and responsible and therefore I hide nothing

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I just want to jump in on the conversation and say BRAVO to you for not breeding dogs with LP even though it isn't life threatening. Take it from someone who has had a lot of LP problems and you will understand how painful it is for us, the owners. My poor baby Codie is going in for surgery on the 21st for LP on his right knee. He has already had surgery for his left knee. X-rays have shown it to be genetic (according to my 2 vets) for both legs.

Not to mention my Chihuahua, Cali, was born with LP is BOTH back legs as well. It's so sad. It's genetic too.

I just want to say a big THANK YOU to you and every other ethical breeder who refuses to breed dogs that carry LP. If hubby ever lets me add a 4th baby to our family, expect a call from me.