Contracts -- Buyer Beware of These!

[blitz]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

My point exactly. I have mine checked within one or two days before leaving and if the buyer abides by the contract and takes the puppy within 48 hours to her vet, if they tell me it's sick, you can bet I am going to want to see proof when I am sure it was healthy when it left me. My one year contract covers life threatening GENETIC illnesses.

But why no refund?

[blitz]

Originally Posted by EmrldShdwQueen

While I do have a contract that states you must have the puppy vet checked within 48 hours for the contract to be valid, I also state that those days DON'T include weekends or holidays. Of course, if someone called me or emailed me to let me know that they had an appointment on the 3rd day, I would still honor it. But like others have said, I don't want someone coming back to me 2 weeks later saying their puppy has parvo because they took it into a dog park or something...and stating it's my fault, when I know my puppies are only in their sterilized areas and are extremely healthy when they leave here.

As far as a refund if something is found within the first 48 hours, my contract states that if I have proof from the vet, I will refund all money paid for the dog.

Well good on ya for that How about in 72 hours?

[Jeri Cunningham]

I think any breeder that is truly good thinks of puppy first and foremost. I have a contract and always have a face to face interview for my puppies prior to selling them. I had a Doctor purchase a puppy that was 12 weeks and fully pad trained ask me to babysit once and called three days later to say she didn't think a dog was her thing after all. This was 6 weeks after she purchased him! I refunded 3/4 of the money just to get poor Brody back. It took weeks to re pad train him and re-adjust the poor thing to a loving environment. I then interviewed over 15 people to find the right forever home. Brody is very happy and well adjusted and will be three in August. A breeder and buyer need to agree to terms and put it in writing.

All buyers should get a check up in a reasonable amount of time and all sellers should provide a reasonable health guarantee.

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

I've come across genetic guarantees written like this....

I WILL GUARANTEE THIS PUPPY TO BE FREE FROM LIFE THREATENING
NON-TREATABLE CONGENITAL OR GENETIC DEFECTS ONLY, FOR ONE YEAR. THIS GUARANTEE IS FOR REPLACEMENT ONLY.

Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly...but it sounds like no guarantee at all. Many congenital or genetic defects ARE treatable...but whether the puppy survives is another story. Liver shunt is treatable, congenital heart disease is treatable...

Another wording I see.... puppy to be free from congenital or genetic defects that IF left untreated would result in death. That makes more sense to me than the statement above....

Exactly! I think contracts that only give a guarantee against LIFE THREATENING genetic defects are crap. There are many defects that aren't life threatening and should still be guaranteed against. What about heart murmors, LP (non-injury), Open fontanels, Legge Calve Perthes, Blindness, deafness, etc, etc. Plenty of defects are not life threatening, but they can still cause an animal pain and cause the owner a lot of anguish and monetary expense. I think it's just a cop out... I personally want to see a guarantee against ALL defects..not just "life threatening" ones. (although I do understand with LP it's sometimes hard to distinguish between injury and genetic so a little more complicated)

I agree with the 48-72 hour rule is a good one. It protects the breeder from being held reponsible for something the buyer causes, and it gives the buyer time to find out about any diseases, parasites, defects, etc. at the beginning before they get really attached.

[EmrldShdwQueen]

Originally Posted by blitz

Well good on ya for that How about in 72 hours?

That's why I said if the buyer contacts me and asks for more time I will grant it.

right back at ya

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

Exactly! I think contracts that only give a guarantee against LIFE THREATENING genetic defects are crap. There are many defects that aren't life threatening and should still be guaranteed against. What about heart murmors, LP (non-injury), Open fontanels, Legge Calve Perthes, Blindness, deafness, etc, etc. Plenty of defects are not life threatening, but they can still cause an animal pain and cause the owner a lot of anguish and monetary expense. I think it's just a cop out... I personally want to see a guarantee against ALL defects..not just "life threatening" ones. (although I do understand with LP it's sometimes hard to distinguish between injury and genetic so a little more complicated)

I agree with the 48-72 hour rule is a good one. It protects the breeder from being held reponsible for something the buyer causes, and it gives the buyer time to find out about any diseases, parasites, defects, etc. at the beginning before they get really attached.

Are you suggesting that we guarantee against everything as the dog gets older? No one can predict that a dog will never go blind, or deaf, or have some health problem down the road. We can only say that as a puppy this dog can hear, see and has been found healthy by our vet. I had a dog that became paralyzed at 6 years old because of a weak disk in his back that slipped and severed a nerve. The weakness had apparently always been there but hadn't caused a problem until that time. I never thought about going back to the breeder and blaming them. Ruffles was a wonderful pet for 6 years and it was just something that happened. He was a living being not a mechanical creation, he wasn't created by a human and couldn't be warrented by one.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by blitz

But why no refund?

I take it a case by case basis . Fortunately, I have never sold a sick puppy and have never had to deal with it but I have returned some of those "non-refundable" deposits and people on her (all but you apparently) know I have.

[blitz]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

I take it a case by case basis . Fortunately, I have never sold a sick puppy and have never had to deal with it but I have returned some of those "non-refundable" deposits and people on her (all but you apparently) know I have.

I'm just talking about the contracts. Everything needs to be reduced to writing so there are no misunderstandings. The "no refunds" must be in there for a reason, so, what is the reason for people to have this in their contract?

If someone put a deposit on my puppy and changed their mind for WHATEVER reason, I'd be glad to find out before they took the puppy home and I would not be entitled to keep their money.

[BakersDozen]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Are you suggesting that we guarantee against everything as the dog gets older? No one can predict that a dog will never go blind, or deaf, or have some health problem down the road. We can only say that as a puppy this dog can hear, see and has been found healthy by our vet. I had a dog that became paralyzed at 6 years old because of a weak disk in his back that slipped and severed a nerve. The weakness had apparently always been there but hadn't caused a problem until that time. I never thought about going back to the breeder and blaming them. Ruffles was a wonderful pet for 6 years and it was just something that happened. He was a living being not a mechanical creation, he wasn't created by a human and couldn't be warrented by one.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Are you suggesting that we guarantee against everything as the dog gets older? No one can predict that a dog will never go blind, or deaf, or have some health problem down the road. We can only say that as a puppy this dog can hear, see and has been found healthy by our vet. I had a dog that became paralyzed at 6 years old because of a weak disk in his back that slipped and severed a nerve. The weakness had apparently always been there but hadn't caused a problem until that time. I never thought about going back to the breeder and blaming them. Ruffles was a wonderful pet for 6 years and it was just something that happened. He was a living being not a mechanical creation, he wasn't created by a human and couldn't be warrented by one.

I'm sure Lacy is not saying for the entire life span of the dog in the guarentee. I guarentee for 3 years for several genetic health issues just not life threatening in my contract after that I do not. I would love to be contacted if something were to show up later in life so I know what has happened so maybe I can prevent it in the future.
Most severe cases show up in the earlier years of a dogs life. I do not cover LP unless it's a grade 4 for one year. I also cover Leggs Perethess also for the first year. If you are a responsible breeder then you cover the most common genetic health issues within your breed and in my opinion for longer than a year because it can show up within the first 2 to 3 years of the dogs life. But of course this is just me!
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[BakersDozen]

Originally Posted by blitz

I'm just talking about the contracts. Everything needs to be reduced to writing so there are no misunderstandings. The "no refunds" must be in there for a reason, so, what is the reason for people to have this in their contract?

If someone put a deposit on my puppy and changed their mind for WHATEVER reason, I'd be glad to find out before they took the puppy home and I would not be entitled to keep their money.

I'm not sure if you are here talking about "no refunds" as in offering a replacement puppy instead (if so I think everyone has agreed that makes no sense) or the non-refundable deposit. If the deposit, you might want to do a search for this, as it seems like there was recently a thread on the reason(s) for requesting a non-refundable deposit. I don't have time right now to look it up, but I think if you do a search, maybe on "deposit" you'll find it.

[BakersDozen]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

..... I do not cover LP unless it's a grade 4 for one year. ......

Can you clarify this for me? Do you mean that you cover it for the first year, if it is a grade 4? (I'm not being picky, it sounds like a very good idea to me, just want to make sure I understand what you are saying)

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by BakersDozen

Can you clarify this for me? Do you mean that you cover it for the first year, if it is a grade 4? (I'm not being picky, it sounds like a very good idea to me, just want to make sure I understand what you are saying)

Yes, I cover LP for the first year "ONLY" if it's a grade 4. Grades 1-3 can be caused from an injury. I feel in the first year of a dogs life and it's a grade 4 at that young of an age it's genetic.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[BakersDozen]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Yes, I cover LP for the first year "ONLY" if it's a grade 4. Grades 1-3 can be caused from an injury. I feel in the first year of a dogs life and it's a grade 4 at that young of an age it's genetic.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I have not seen a contract like this before, but think it is a wonderful idea! It protects both you and the buyer, and sounds very reasonable. Thanks for mentioning this!

[blitz]

The following excerpt was found at http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/lemon_ca.html

California's law falls hardest on sellers of unhealthy dogs, but hobby breeders do not fall under its provisions except for the extremely active ones. It applies to anyone who sold, transferred, or gare away two or more litters during the preceding calendar year.

Buyers have 15 days to document contagious or infectious disease, one year to document congenital or hereditary defects. The seller has 120 days to produce advertised registration papers. If the seller fails to do so, the buyer may return the dog for a full refund or keep the dog and receive a refund of 75 percent of the purchase price.

If the dog is proven to be ill or to have hereditary defects, the buyer is entitled to a replacement plus reimbursement for veterinary expenses related to certifying the dog's illness, up to the price of the dog including sales tax.

The buyer may also choose a refund plus reimbursement for veterinary expenses related to certifying the dog's illness, up to the price of the dog.

If the buyer elects to have the dog treated, the seller is required to cover up to 1 1/2 times the purchase price of the dog in veterinary expenses.

It is important to note that the cost of testing to certify a dog unhealthy could double what a seller is obligated to refund to the purchaser. This makes it very expensive to sell ill and defective dogs in California.

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