How does a breeder handle slamming?

[NanaDtreasures]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

For me personally:

Sells "Teacups". Even says "Breeders of Tiny Yorkies" at top of home page
Kennel Situation (not automatically a red flag, but I prefer home-raised)
Dams are 3-6lbs (5-7lbs is preferred..no smaller than 4.5lbs should be bred)
Sires are 2-4lbs (all tiny)
12 dams on site (not automatically a red flag but that's a LOT of females IMO)
Dogs do not meet the standard..clearly not of quality for breeding
Most dams do not look well-groomed
6 sires on site (not automatically a red flag but that's a LOT of studs IMO)
Puppies from 6 different litters for sale at once
Selling a "rare chocolate" (not even a chocolate...looks like a blue born)
Puppies look poorly bred
Selling "breeding stock" males
Sells on full registration w/ no questions asked
Can paypal a deposit straight from the website
1 year guarantee for only "life-threatening" defects. Requires puppy be returned or will only give a partial refund

Lot of red flags for me too
I have no knowledge of what happened with this poor puppy.
And pride myself that all my puppies have never had a problem.
Praying here. But I know one thing.
I would do the right thing to the person I sold a puppy to.
And would get the adult dogs neutered and spayed.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by bjh

Let's say you have a beautiful champion dog bred by someone else and you bred that dog with one of your females in you breeding program and there was a liver shunt puppy produced from that breeding. You say you would neuter you entire breed stock that was related to you female and the breeders of the champion male would have to neuter every dog they have related to that male or they would be unethical?

If I had a champion sire and bitch that produced a liver shunt puppy you bet I'd spay and neuter the bitch, the sire and the pups from that litter. Can you imagine someone else having to deal with that? How devasting! Of course this is my practice and yes I believe if you continue to breed a bitch and or sire that produced a shunt puppy I do consider it unethical...whether you or anyone else disagrees with me it is what you believe I can't change that!
I do believe MVD is aquired and does not have to be genetic but again if I were to find that in my lines I would still spay and neuter. I would inform the sire's breeders and then it would be up to them whether or not they would spay/ neuter what my newly aquired sire was out of and I would encourage them to do as I did. I just couldn't live with myself knowing I was producing shunts.
I'm not trying to start a debate just stating what I would do and how I practice and what I believe...everyone is entitled to either agree or disagree I can't change the way anyone believes.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by BakersDozen

I assume when you refer to liver shunt as a genetic issue you must be referring to single congenital portosystemic shunts. These, I believe, have been shown by Dr. Tobias to be inherited. However, it is important to note that not ALL liver shunts are without doubt genetic. Liver shunts in dogs can be acquired (usually these are multiple shunts, seen in older dogs, and secondary to another health problem). They are not the type of shunt we usually hear about when talking about Yorkies and liver shunt, usually we are referring to single congenital portosystemic shunts.

I agree with you that dogs with liver shunt shouldn't be bred (better safe than sorry, I think). But I just wanted to point out that, depending on the shunt, it's possible that it's not genetic. So it really can't reasonably be stated that a breeder, in every instance, has to remove the dog from their breeding program. It is definitely a matter for extensive research and consideration. I personally wouldn't breed them again, but since with some shunts the research is not definitive, I can see how others decision might differ.

Please know that I am not trying to disagree with you, I do agree. Just wanted to clarify.

I believe MVD can be aquired but also I would try to elimate from a breeding program if discovered

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[tumismom]

hmm..what happened to OP?

[BakersDozen]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I believe MVD can be aquired but also I would try to elimate from a breeding program if discovered

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I agree. It can be acquired secondary to liver disease, so in making a decision one should also consider whether the primary disease is hereditary. Though others could ethically make a different decision based on the particular circumstances, in most cases I would not want to take the chance that either the primary disease or the shunt were hereditary.

[BakersDozen]

Originally Posted by tumismom

hmm..what happened to OP?

Don't know....but since I've already participated in carrying this thread off-topic , lol, I might as well say that your girls look so cute in their outfits!

[bjh]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I believe MVD can be aquired but also I would try to elimate from a breeding program if discovered

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I am not trying to start an argument but was trying to get some clarification as to if you meant you would neuter just the sire and dam or also everything related to them. I appreciate your input. You are honest and have very strong convictions. There are many breeders out there that would not do that and I am afraid many breeders do not want to discuss genetic defects that might have shown up periodically in their lines for fear of their name being dragged through the mud.

[love_me_cody]

Originally Posted by Susan123

I'm sorry ALOT of people at YT have poor representations of the breed. I hoope you don't insult those (I know she's a breeder and most others purchased there dogs, given) but there are breeders with dogs like this too.

Geez, if you weren't slammed before, you have been now. Why don't we just run her off along and she'll never learn anything, and keep breeding these dogs. At least she's here and can listen.

The facts are there, Bleu is sick. I have to say and everyone should already know this - Even the best of breeders over time will have something pop up. And of course the parents spayed/neutered.

Her website leaves a lot to desire, T-cups, prices (for these types of dogs)rare chocolates and such. Big no no's. Really big is the fact that she's still breeding the parents.

There's no need to be a pit of vipers. Everything can be said tactfully, no wonder everyone is scared to ask a question.

OP: Bleu is sick with a congenital defect. You need to stop breeding his parents. No one wants to sentence a puppy to the kind of life his body has had to endure. As for your others, I don't think they are good representations of the breed. And "T-cup" is a buzz word, a tool to have uneducated buyers come in and buy. I strongly recommend cleaning up your program, starting over with a couple of dogs (new dogs, know their lines and be sure their healthy and adhere to the standard) and yes, you could change your reputation here on YT with time and effort. It's only going to be changed by the dogs breed and ethics.

I was just talking about her and what I saw about the dogs.... But you mentioned everyone else, I may (if so, didn't realize) have offended her but you are then addressing the appearence of others. So, you are then making it worse by add everyone elses dog...

If someone wants me/us to see their site or to say that they aren't bad and is trying to save their rep. I would still look and tell my opinion...... To me, it depends on how she uses that opinion..

[love_me_cody]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Only comment I will make is this....if your knowingly breeding yorkies that are producing genetic health issues spay and neuter and if you still want to breed start over and do more studying and research pedigrees and get with a reputable mentor and do it right. To continue to breed genetic health issues is unethical for your breeding program and the buying public.
Liver Shunt is a genetic health issue regardless and if your breeding it you are unethical to your breeding program and the buying public as with any other genetic health issue. Plain and simple!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

This may be on or off topic, I'm not sure...
But because you aren't sure which ancestor gave any of the genetic effects, would you stay away from all of the lines in their lineage? (Only if you can't find the relative that gave the effect)

[Sugar's Mom]

There are some well known show lines out there that many of you just rave about on here that have had some serious problems with genetic issues. BUT, they have done everything in their power to clean their line up much as Donna was talking about and the lines are back to being the excellant lines they were before the problems. To me that is what sets them apart and makes them ethical breeders. Would I feel comfortable buying from some of them at this point? Honestly, I don't know . I probably would still be scared.

[LunasMomma]

To answer your original question "How does a breeder handle slamming?"----

Clean up your breeding program. Simple as that.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by love_me_cody

This may be on or off topic, I'm not sure...
But because you aren't sure which ancestor gave any of the genetic effects, would you stay away from all of the lines in their lineage? (Only if you can't find the relative that gave the effect)

Not necessarily. I would for sure spay and neuter the sire and bitch. But if you do your research and know the breeder and what they've produced and have done all the necessary testing then really you shouldn't have to worry about shunts or other genetic health issues. What I"m trying to say is this...If you are breeding correctly and all the testing has been done and if for some reason something arises you elimate it from your breeding program ie...all puppies from that litter, sire and dam and stop producing it. If you have to start over your breeding program then so be it. Most reputable breeders if something has arisen in their breeding program has stopped it and elimated it from their breeding program. I hope that made sense...

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's

[kelkiss5]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Not necessarily. I would for sure spay and neuter the sire and bitch. But if you do your research and know the breeder and what they've produced and have done all the necessary testing then really you shouldn't have to worry about shunts or other genetic health issues. What I"m trying to say is this...If you are breeding correctly and all the testing has been done and if for some reason something arises you elimate it from your breeding program ie...all puppies from that litter, sire and dam and stop producing it. If you have to start over your breeding program then so be it. Most reputable breeders if something has arisen in their breeding program has stopped it and elimated it from their breeding program. I hope that made sense...

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's

Donna would a breeder try and breed genetic health issues out of their breeding programme. I mean, if you had a litter, and only 1 puppy presented any difficulties, from a long line. Would they go ahead and breed the healthy pups. Just a curious question??? I hope this makes snese

[JCarlson2004]

Wow, so many posts were deleted. Looks like I missed a lot. I really don't much know of going on (I think I missed some of the threads about Bleu being sick) but I hope things work out for everyone involved ... especially Bleu.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by kelkiss5

Donna would a breeder try and breed genetic health issues out of their breeding programme. I mean, if you had a litter, and only 1 puppy presented any difficulties, from a long line. Would they go ahead and breed the healthy pups. Just a curious question??? I hope this makes snese

I can't speak for other breeders but if they are reputable and are doing the right thing they would spay and neuter the whole litter. Now if LP (Luxating Patellas) was the case, before spaying and neutering I would make sure it wasn't caused by genetics. LP can be caused by an injury. But serious health issues the whole litter should be spayed and neutered. I would only spay or neuter the affected parent if I knew for sure which one produced it but if I didn't know which one produced it both parents would be spayed and neutered and taken out of my breeding program. Again, I can't speak for other breeders but in my opinion that is what should be done.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers