First time breeding??
 

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Walton KS
Posts: 1,126 Advice for first time breeding.

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Ok, first off I know many of you will say I should NOT have let my pups breed. I had both checked with two local vets and talked with three breeders in my area that said it would be fine. So our story goes like this.

This was Lacie's First heat cycle(age 9 months) in a 3# female, very small be also very mature and healthly. Her mother is also 3# and used for breeding twice a year. Her sire is 3# also. Mother always has 4 pups in each litter avg. about 1.5 oz at birth and adult weight avg. 3#

Gizmo was only 7 months and I wasn't sure he'd be ready yet. He figured it out. He is bigger almost 5#. Both I believe comes from smaller parents. I got him from Pam Hinkle here on YT.

Questions: I saw tie ups from Dec. 14 - Dec. 19th. When should I begin counting days from??? the first? the Last? Between??

At what date should I be doing xrays?? Are they needed?

What other dangers Do I need to know???

I have checked out the heat cycle link and have read as much as possible. But just thought I'd ask you all that have been there for your advice also.
Thanks
Dawn
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You are right. You should not have let this mother who is under 1 yr old, 3 pounds and in her first cycle to be bred.:mad: :thumbdown This is a VERY bad scenario for both you and your girl to be in and very irresponsible to have taken this risk without researching FIRST. From the situation you have willing entered and the questions you've asked, it seems your knowledge is minimal and now you are playing with the life of your girl.
My advice: Find new vets and new breeders to get advice from.

I hope that for the sake of your little one everything goes smoothly. :(

I am surprised that any vet would say this breeding is okay. A three pound female is way too small to breed and now her life is in danger (more than a breeding with larger dogs). Breeding during the first heat cycle isn't recommended because the female isn't mature yet.

I am not a breeder so I don't know when you start counting the days but my guess would be the first one. How many times did they tie? Usually breeders will allow their dogs to tie every other day for two or three ties (give sperm a chance to build back up). The female is held during this so she can't hurt the male.

Radiographs can be done after 45 days but some breeders prefer to do it later. Your vet may have a preference.

This is the advice I give for any Yorkie in a serious situation like yours: If she is in the very first part of pregnancy, get her spayed.

Wow, this is scary. I can't believe a vet would say it is o.k. to breed a 9 month old, 3# Yorkie on her first heat cycle. Personally, I never breed anything under 5 lbs.; it is just too risky on the little ones. At 9 months she is still developing and the problem is their bones are still soft and she might have problems dilating at that young of an age. You also have to worry about a ruptured uterus. How soon would she be due? Can you tell for sure if she is pregnant. Your male is awful young so it is possible he was not fertile yet. I always count 61 days from the 1st breeding then start watching very closely. They can go anywhere from 59 days to 69 days, depending on which breeding took. If they whelp before 58 days the pups have a hard time making it. I will pray that all turns out well. Please take are advise to heart and don't take it personal. What's done is done and you need to focus one the health and well being of your baby. If she is indeed pregnant, I would get her x-rayed around 57 days but I am not sure. I hope some of the other on here that breed tinies can give you better advise.

I am sorry if my post was harsh, but it really just shocks and infuriates me that there are actually people out there giving you the advice that this is OK! I can't stress enough to you how serious of a situation this is and how very dangerous it is for your female. I hope you can understand that is my ONLY concern--that your girl does not suffer because of poor adivce and decisions.:(

You know you still have time to reconsider this idea of letting your 3lb. female have puppies. I recently had my 4 and a half pound girl spayed after her first heat, I was afraid her and my male might have accidently gotten together even though I kept them apart. I couldn't imagine her having puppies and she is quite a bit bigger than yours:( I am also surprised that any vet or breeders would suggest breeding such a small dog and so young. Anyway, I would reconsider if it was me, sorry, JMO.

Your breeder does not sound like a good person to talk to about breeding. Under 5lbs should not be bred in my opinion and no dog should be bred twice in one year and you said she does this on a regular basis?? Giving birth is hard work and then the feeding of the puppies also takes a lot out of the mother. There should be at least 1 year between breedings to get the mother's strength up. If someone breeds that often they care more about money then the dogs (both mom and babies) health. I'm sorry you got bad advise and I hope you can find someone more responsible to help you through the rest of this if you decide to not abort.

As for your questions, count from the first tie, but as the time gets closer also start taking her temp. its will keep going up as time gets closer and then drop off right before she is ready.

Xrays aren't always needed IMO but I would with this litter. The later the better because then you can better tell if they will fit for a natural birth or need a c-section

During pregnacy also watch and make sure she is eating. A lot of females get fussy and won't eat. I have to get wet food for mine because she won't eat her kibble. Also she should be eating puppy food (normally about 5 weeks into the pregnancy but probably the whole time with her age). And leave food down all the time if you don't already.

Dawn I just want to say I hope all goes OK.
I am here if you need me ..
And I hope People on here will take a step back and think of the PUPS and not what has already been done.

:) Please Try to be helpful not Hurtful.:)
And also Read your post before hitting the send key.

To be honest....I'm more concerned with the puppy that was bred than the puppies that are due if she's pregnant! I'm gonna be harsh here and it's meant to be harsh....A responsilbe breeder would NEVER recommend breeding a 9 month old puppy bitch much less a 7 month old dog PERIOD!!! And the vet needs to be re taught!!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

One must understand that there are few vets that specialize on Yorkies or Toy breeds. So, I understand that your vet would tell you that it was ok to breed on your pups first cycle. However, he gave you incorrect advice for your yorkie. Never breed on their first cycle.....18 months of age or 2nd Season.

I'm truely concerned at the small size of your female......and I will say, the lack of information and education you acquired prior to entering the breeding world.

X-rays should not be performed on your female until a week before her whelping date. I have them done on my girls, just to assist me in knowing their position and skeletal size...not always accurate, but it helps me to be better prepared when the blessed event happens.

Good Luck

Yes you are right you will get alot of people who will tell you this breeding should NOT have taken place. First heat cycle and 3 lb females should NOT have been bred, however they are and I will do my best to answer your questions for you to the best of my abilities.


Question 1. - You should begin counting from the first tie.

Question 2. - X-rays should be taken on or near day 55 and YES they are needed(especially under your circumstances). Your female is very small and the xray will tell you how many she is expecting, the babies size and allow you to properly see if she can even have them on her own or if a c-section should be scheduled. I would have to say most likely she will need a c-section, but your vet will determine that after the x-ray.

Question 3. - The dangers you should know are many since it is her first heat and your female isn't mature enough for this breeding. You can lose your female from this breeding and should watch her closely.

There are so many reasons this should not have taken place, however I hope I have answered your questions for you without being hurtful and negative. I wish you the best!

You are right and I apologize for being as hurtful in my post as I was. However, these exact issues are discussed here very frequently and NEVER is it condoned. So throwing caution to the wind and going against every bit of advice ever given....I just don't get and don't think it should be just blown off as 'no big deal.' But, you are right and what is done is done...and someone has to put the best interest of the female and pups first...

So, I would definately try to find a REPUTABLE breeder and vet in the meantime. Find an EXERIENCED breeder who will be able to asist you during the whelp and try to learn all you can in the meantime. Around day 50, take your female in for an x-ray--this will be crucial as it will give your vet (hopefully a new one with some experience w/ canine reproduction) and indication as to if the pups appear too big for free whelp or if a c-section will be needed. Above all else, once this litter is said and done, please have you poor girl spayed so that she will not have to go through this ordeal again.

:thumbup: I agree! This female is too small and too young...she could die very easily, and you have to make a decision now.

BUT if you really want this to happen, please take all the good advice you can get, which does NOT include the advice of this vet...:rolleyes: And make sure you KNOW by heart the number of a good emergency vet. If it were ME, I would call them a week before she was due and tell them everything, sort of "fill them in" just in case, or even take her straight there as SOON as she goes into labor, and let them work on her. I wouldn't take any chances, this is your BABY...you could lose her and the pups...:(

I don't think ANYONE means to be harsh, just stern, and concerned for your little girl. I think you already know at least SOME of the dangers, according to your OP, because you said you "know you shouldn't have done this." Just be VERY VERY careful, and be afraid...learn about EVERY possible scenerio JUST IN CASE. Yes, there are people out there who breed 2 and 3 lb females all the time, but the percentage of those who have a healthy and normal delivery is not very high, and anyone who chooses to breed that small has to recognize that, and think about the health of their dogs and puppies.

since the sire was ONLY 7 months there is a good chance the sperm may not be viable.

in the case you are blessed with puppies, you have two months to learn the who, what, where, when and why, all your needed information is available simply by searching the YT archives in the breeders section, "THE good, the BAD and the ugly" its all there...also gives you time to find a better educated vet!

I wish you all the best

First off MOm most likely will have a hard time with delivery being that small.
Eclampsia pops right up also with a 3lb girl and puppies and her being a pup herself the poor gal will be drained.
Not being a good mommie for she is still just a baby herself.
Not having healthy pups for she is growing her self and trying to support the growth of puppies.
If section is needed then you have the risk of loosing her with that and pups also (and a big hefty bill to go along with it).
My vet would have a fit if I did something like that!!
How do they know she will be big enough???(did they do a rectal on her,how does he know????)
Just because mom had small pups does not mean she will.
Read all you can ( you can never know enough) and do you have a mentor or someone to help you with her?
Count 63 days after the first tie ,that will be your EDD.
Debbie Jensen has a wonderful site on whelping etc.....
Good luck to you and your little mamma.
I would get another vet.

Ya know, I gotta ask...why would any reputable breeder have placed such a small girl with you and allowed her to go on open registration so that she could be bred--I would think to protect her based on her size alone. Was she not placed w/ an s/n agreement? :confused:

First of all i believe the breeder that she and My Duke came from IS a reputable breeder. Lacie was going to be used by her as a breeder until she sold her to me.
Second: I talked with THREE Vets. 2 who specializes in small dogs. and THREE Breeders and they all said that she would be ok with her size. Do none of you ever have small females breed?????
Third: I did not do this with out any information. I have read many books and read this section on YT. I have a breeder close by to help me with details also. I just thought I'd get information from you all also. So thank you for you time and advice.

I will watch her close. And take extra care with her and the pups. But I'm excited and will enjoy the pups.
Thank you again, Dawn

[And also Read your post before hitting the send key.[/COLOR][/I][/B

I read what I typed before I hit the send key and I meant what I said LOL...I don't mean to pick on your post please forgive me my "anger" is not directed at you but to the orignal poster because how can she defend this breeder for allowing her to breed a 9 month old puppy to a 7 month old puppy? Yes I'm angry because it's WRONG and not breeding responsibly! The 7 month old male I hope is not viable with his sperm as another poster pointed out. UGH this thread disgusts me!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Then if you have studied and have a mentor, been to 3 different vets, you are set and have great resources.

No, I have never bred a small female, nor would I...

That is scary...this little girl should have NEVER been an option for ANY breeding program. That, IMO is not 'reputable.':thumbdown That shocks me that she was not on an s/n agreement.:(

No!

I'm sorry, but I am having a hard time believing that. You have been a member of YT since April and have a pretty significant # of posts...at what point in time, reading YT, have you EVER seen breeding such a small, young female condoned or encouraged?:confused:


I am sorry. I really DO believe that you only want what is safe for your girl and that you only want what is best for her and this possible future litter, however I believe you have been fed some bad informaiton by some vets and breeders that should have known better and who deserve a swift kick to the rear!:p Look around here and see how many people you have telling you that this situation is favorable. Please just watch that sweet princess closely as I know you will--I hope this story will have a happy ending. Just take the advice that your gut tells you is right as that is really all you can do at this point.:)

Hi,
Yes start counting from their 1st tie. You will find TONS of information on the Debbie Jensen website. She even has a calendar where you can plug in the date and it will give you a day by day break down on what to expect. Here is the link http://www.debbiejensen.com/date.html

I have always got xrays. I get them to see how big the pups are and to see how many to expect.

Good luck to you and your expecting babies!

Just wanted to ask...was there a reason for breeding her at 9 months old? I just asking because I know a breeder who knows another breeder who has bred on 1st heats and I was just curious why. My Macey was 9 or 10 months old her 1st heat and I just couldn't picture her a mommy :) She was such a baby herself (sometimes still is!):p LOL

Well, Good luck with everything and please keep us posted!

I had asked the vets and breeders if I should seprated these two during her first heat. They all said the doubted that he would be able to produce pups. But if it did happen they said it would be alright because her body size will determine how large the pups are NOT his size. Maybe I should have kept them apart but I didn't.
Yes the Debbie Jensen site is a great help. It shows that the pups should be here Feb. 15th.
Thank you for your prays and thoughts.
Dawn

Please just keep us posted on her progress. I saw a thread recently where someone did basically the same thing and that that bitch lost her baby. I pray this won't happen to you. It is still possible that she is not pregnant because they usually don't start showing until around 5 weeks, depending on how many puppies they are carrying. If she is pregnant you will start feeling movement about a week before she is due. Good luck.

Lots have bred small females..But not 3lbs and a pup them selves..
My friend has a maltese that we used our male on she is a little over 7 pounds.
My male is 3 1/2 lbs and she had a hell of a time and ended up with a section and lost all pups but 1. The pup was 4 ounces and the rest were about the same.(there was 6 in the litter) The malteses momma was 5 pounds and dad was 5 1/2.(Came from a great breeder)So why the big pups????
My male is 3 1/2 pounds and his folks were 5 and 6.So size does not matter.
Just goes to show ya that a tiny girl bred to a tiny male with tiny parents DOES not always produce tiny babies..
I honestly cannot see a vet saying it is okay to breed a pup .No matter how big she is.Momma size does not say okay I am tiny and a pup still so my pups are going to be tiny as well.What ever vet told ya that I would like to speak to myself and ask a few questions?I really would be willing to call and ask??????
WE all get excited for pups and cannot wait to see what we get,so I am hopefull your experiance is not ruined by heartache..
Best of Luck.

I am sorry did not mean why the big pups,but why the problems with delivery and lossing them when they were only 4 ounces..So ya never know what is going to come out!

Hi
I first & foremost want to wish you good luck with Lacie's pregnancy & whelping.
I myself would never want to breed one so small; not because it's right or wrong, but because it would just be to scary for me. I've read of some small dogs being bred and they do fine. The choice is YOURS. I do highly recommend an xray being done in the last week of pregnancy for any breeding female, but even more so for your small girl, to see how many pups to expect and to see their size so as to be prepared if a C-section is needed.
Please keep us posted on her progress...you may be having a litter of little Valentines!:)

Im going to keep my mouth shut cause I have nothing nice to say right now.

However Im going to say I hope that poor puppy survives such a big ordeal such as having pups.

I dont have any answers for you but I just wanted to say good luck on her pregnancy and congrats on the babies and hope delivery goes smoothly for momma and babies :)

Good point....But limited registration doesn't prevent breeding--it only prevents the resulting litter from being registered. Same with a spay/neuter contract. People breed unregistered/unregisterable dogs all the time.

While I totally agree with everyone posting that this bitch should not have been bred....the ease of delivery is not so much dependent on the weight of the dog, but more upon the pelvic structure. You can have a 7 lb. bitch with a very small pelvis who will always have trouble.....and a 4 lb. with a large pelvis (large in relation to her body) who may not have any trouble at all.

I am not at all saying this to condone breeding this small baby. Even if (and that's a BIG IF) size had nothing to do with it, she's too young......just trying to think positively now that it has been done.

Very true...no arguing that.:)