Mississippi House Kills Felony Animal Cruelty Bill

[Woogie Man]

Nancy, I agree with you about this. There probably is some overlap between farmers and mill operators as I don't see how puppy mill operators alone could exert so much influence. Even without that, I think farmers would be against this anyway, and see it as a stepping stone to their door.

I really liked what you said in the recent thread (the one about buying from a pet store) that if 'everyone would just visit the premises where the puppy comes from, there would be no more puppy mills'. I hope I'm paraphrasing you correctly and I 100% agree. It's a very simple solution that we all can implement.

More so than the cruelty of some mills, this bill was aimed at those that intentionally harm animals for kicks. There is no reason for such acts to be considered only a misdemeanor when cats and dogs are suffering horribly at the hands of demented sickos.

[RachelandSadie]

it floors me that there was anyone opposed to this and my reasoning is...aren't most phyco path killers linked back to some form of animal abuse in their early stages of life??? why wouldn't you punish as a fealony someone who hurts an innocent and defenseless animal. if you are cruel and crazy enough to harm a dog or cat, you are most likely crazy enough to go off on a human being or baby someday. why not put them away before more damage can be done??

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Nancy, I agree with you about this. There probably is some overlap between farmers and mill operators as I don't see how puppy mill operators alone could exert so much influence. Even without that, I think farmers would be against this anyway, and see it as a stepping stone to their door.

I really liked what you said in the recent thread (the one about buying from a pet store) that if 'everyone would just visit the premises where the puppy comes from, there would be no more puppy mills'. I hope I'm paraphrasing you correctly and I 100% agree. It's a very simple solution that we all can implement.

More so than the cruelty of some mills, this bill was aimed at those that intentionally harm animals for kicks. There is no reason for such acts to be considered only a misdemeanor when cats and dogs are suffering horribly at the hands of demented sickos.

Lol, who do you picture as a mill operator? There not just backyard breeders gone wild. Think of how farmers decide a crop, they have some type of group that tells them how much they will pay for certain things. The farmers aren't deciding yorkies are really hot this year, "I'll breed me some of those", they are given suggestions on what to breed, just like they are being told what would be good to grow. The farmer/mill operators are not the ones making the money; it's the brokers. Farmers are lucky to get $200.00 for a puppy. Haven't you ever heard of dog auctions, where breeders are sold in large numbers, farmers are changing crops. Now sure there are probably larger commercial facilities that are run by larger groups or individuals and puppies are their only business, but I'd guess most of the mills are one-family operations. It's not like they spend all day caring for the dogs, they are raising and growing other things as well.

I try to stress the importance of visiting homes, but even some breeders on Yorkietalk give excuses why it can't be done. They say they don't trust a person enough to come to their home, yet they have no problem meeting the person, and selling them a dog. If you don't know a person well enough to feel comfortable visiting your home, you shouldn't sell them a defenseless dog. I didn't get much back up on this, but breeding isn't for everyone, and if you can't figure out a way to show people the breeding location, then you need to quit breeding. You know it would be great if we could tell a miller just by talking to him, but we can't. They know the right things to say, and the brokers can win almost anyone over.


I understand that this bill isn't a puppy mill bill, but the farmers don't. How many times have you heard, "Give em an inch."?

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by RachelandSadie

it floors me that there was anyone opposed to this and my reasoning is...aren't most phyco path killers linked back to some form of animal abuse in their early stages of life??? why wouldn't you punish as a fealony someone who hurts an innocent and defenseless animal. if you are cruel and crazy enough to harm a dog or cat, you are most likely crazy enough to go off on a human being or baby someday. why not put them away before more damage can be done??

....

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Lol, who do you picture as a mill operator? There not just backyard breeders gone wild. Think of how farmers decide a crop, they have some type of group that tells them how much they will pay for certain things. The farmers aren't deciding yorkies are really hot this year, "I'll breed me some of those", they are given suggestions on what to breed, just like they are being told what would be good to grow. The farmer/mill operators are not the ones making the money; it's the brokers. Farmers are lucky to get $200.00 for a puppy. Haven't you ever heard of dog auctions, where breeders are sold in large numbers, farmers are changing crops. Now sure there are probably larger commercial facilities that are run by larger groups or individuals and puppies are their only business, but I'd guess most of the mills are one-family operations. It's not like they spend all day caring for the dogs, they are raising and growing other things as well.

I'm not sure what's so funny about my views on puppy mills . I don't pretend to be an expert but have done enough research to have a good awareness of them.

From the images I've seen, puppy mills aren't farmers that are 'growing dogs' along with corn, wheat, tomatoes, etc.. They're usually dumpy places with stacks of dogs everywhere. I don't recall seeing crops growing in the background so I would say that many are just that...puppy mills operated by a family making money off the misery of their dogs. In many ways, they are 'backyard breeders gone wild'. I won't insult farmers by lumping them together with millers, though there are surely some millers that do some farming.

Yes, I am aware of dog auctions, brokers, the Hunte Corp., Petland, the Amish, bogus rescues, the USDA list, etc. etc.. Hello, I'm not some newbie here that just bought a pup from a pet store. Geez, I almost feel the need to re-introduce myself.

[RachelandSadie]

i have to kinda agree with Woogie here, i'm from MO, the puppy mill capitol of the US. there are tons and tons of farmers where i grew up, practically every single family i know farms and i cannot think of one single farming family that runs any form of dog breeding whatsoever. the breeders i know of are just single family operations that have small kennels out back of their homes with a few dogs that they breed and have little boxes with heat lamps over their puppies and it looks like a chicken coop out there or something. i know i live up north so i don't see all the crap nearer the ozarks, but it's not really the farmers up here breeding at all. and the ozarks where all the troubles are is too hilly and rocky to farm and that's where our majority of BYB and puppy mills are. that doesn't mean it's the same for all states, but at least for the largest state of puppy mills in the country, from my perspective of living here, it's NOT the farmers at all.

having said that, it does not excuse the farming community of Mississippi from lobbying against a bill that doesn't really affect them at all but rather put away phyco paths who abuse and torture animals.

just my two cents from a MO gal who lives with and loves her farming family and community

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

....



I'm not sure what's so funny about my views on puppy mills . I don't pretend to be an expert but have done enough research to have a good awareness of them.

From the images I've seen, puppy mills aren't farmers that are 'growing dogs' along with corn, wheat, tomatoes, etc.. They're usually dumpy places with stacks of dogs everywhere. I don't recall seeing crops growing in the background so I would say that many are just that...puppy mills operated by a family making money off the misery of their dogs. In many ways, they are 'backyard breeders gone wild'. I won't insult farmers by lumping them together with millers, though there are surely some millers that do some farming.

Yes, I am aware of dog auctions, brokers, the Hunte Corp., Petland, the Amish, bogus rescues, the USDA list, etc. etc.. Hello, I'm not some newbie here that just bought a pup from a pet store. Geez, I almost feel the need to re-introduce myself.

I'm really sorry if I offended, you are right, it's not a humorous subject. I'm having a hard time explaining myself, and I guess my "LOL", was just out of my frustration. I was trying to say, the miller isn't some big bad boogieman, he looks just like a farmer. I do know that you are very well read on it, and you probably know more about this then me, I was just trying to explain that many farmers also raise dogs. I watched the videos and they interviewed the millers, and all I can say is that they called themselves farmers. I also know that the Amish who raise dogs are called farmers. The term farmer means to me, anyone who raises crops or animals, and lives in a rural area. I was only guessing why the farmers voted against this bill. It makes sense to me, but if it doesn't make sense to you, that's ok, I'm not saying I'm right. I have a lot of respect for you, and I am very sorry if I offended you.

I can see by Rachel and Sadie's post that you are not alone in not understanding what I was trying to say. I meant no disrespect to farmers either.

[RachelandSadie]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I'm really sorry if I offended, you are right, it's not a humorous subject. I'm having a hard time explaining myself, and I guess my "LOL", was just out of my frustration. I was trying to say, the miller isn't some big bad boogieman, he looks just like a farmer. I do know that you are very well read on it, and you probably know more about this then me, I was just trying to explain that many farmers also raise dogs. I watched the videos and they interviewed the millers, and all I can say is that they called themselves farmers. I also know that the Amish who raise dogs are called farmers. The term farmer means to me, anyone who raises crops or animals, and lives in a rural area. I was only guessing why the farmers voted against this bill. It makes sense to me, but if it doesn't make sense to you, that's ok, I'm not saying I'm right. I have a lot of respect for you, and I am very sorry if I offended you.

I can see by Rachel and Sadie's post that you are not alone in not understanding what I was trying to say. I meant no disrespect to farmers either.

ok now i totally hear what you are saying!! i agree with you that there are many out there that claim as their excuse for milling that they are simply "farming" dogs as if they are lifestock. i once used the amish lifestyle as an example of people who don't realize that what they are doing is anything other than normal. for an amish person who does view dogs more or less as livestock, they would consider themselves farmers, most midwestern farmers do not consider dogs livestock as i am familier with, but I can totally hear you on the arguement that most millers will call themselves a simple ol' farmer to get out of trouble with the media or others calling them what they are "puppy mills"

and yes millers can disguise themselves as nice kind old men and farmers. i have no idea what Sadie's breeder's home looked like or what he really does with her mommy and daddy. i am ashamed that i never saw or found out and now i'm sure i don't wish to know about them. you have to go look and make sure that friendly ol' "farmer" isn't pulling a shade over your eyes, that is for sure!!

thanks Nancy for clearing that up for me.

[Woogie Man]

Well, I was curiously amused and *somewhat* offended by your post. I'm surprised that a topic such as this thread got sidetracked, but I guess it's part of one big umbrella subject.

I have no use for millers and won't humor them by referring to them as 'farmers'. Just because you may see farmers, millers and even hunting groups opposing legislation doesn't mean they're in cahoots. I think it has more to do with some of the legislation being pushed around the country and is a backlash. Some of these groups now see all animal protection bills as a threat and are digging their heels in. This bill was carefully crafted yet still failed. You know, the whole slippery slope thing you mentioned.

I may be completely wrong, but I don't think puppy mills are that big of a business in Mississippi. I've looked at the USDA list and there are only a few listings for MS. I don't know of any other way to check other than googling around for breeders in MS with web sites and judging from there. There are many irresponsible breeders here, to be sure, but I don't think so many that would fit the classic idea of a puppy mill. Of course, that is subjective and one's byb could be another's puppy mill.

[joeyandtanksmom]

jerks! There's no reason that animal cruelty shouldn't be a felony! Isn't child abuse a felony? Same dang thing!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Well, I was curiously amused and *somewhat* offended by your post. I'm surprised that a topic such as this thread got sidetracked, but I guess it's part of one big umbrella subject.

I have no use for millers and won't humor them by referring to them as 'farmers'. Just because you may see farmers, millers and even hunting groups opposing legislation doesn't mean they're in cahoots. I think it has more to do with some of the legislation being pushed around the country and is a backlash. Some of these groups now see all animal protection bills as a threat and are digging their heels in. This bill was carefully crafted yet still failed. You know, the whole slippery slope thing you mentioned.

I may be completely wrong, but I don't think puppy mills are that big of a business in Mississippi. I've looked at the USDA list and there are only a few listings for MS. I don't know of any other way to check other than googling around for breeders in MS with web sites and judging from there. There are many irresponsible breeders here, to be sure, but I don't think so many that would fit the classic idea of a puppy mill. Of course, that is subjective and one's byb could be another's puppy mill.

Well, I certainly didn't mean to offend, and actually I felt like I was agreeing with everything you said and we were just pondering reasons why the bill failed. I certainly don't know why though. Sorry, if I came off as a know-it-all. That's a part of my writing style that I would like to change. I do agree with you there is a great backlash and that could be one of the reasons why the bill failed. When you mentioned the word "lobbyist" I just believe they work together. Not the actual farmers, puppy millers, and hunters, but the lobbyists, you know, "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours". I wonder how you could get some concrete answers? I wonder if your representatives would tell you the truth?

One thing I have read is that not all millers are on the USDA list. Fines in some states are so small for not being listed as a commercial breeder, it's much cheaper to just pay the fine if you are caught, and fly under the radar. I think in MO, someone was saying the fine is $25.00 if you are caught, so what's the incentive to sign up, and know that you could be inspected?

[Nancy1999]

Actually, I may be wrong about the fine being $25.00 in MO, I'm pretty sure that's the fine in my state AZ.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by joeyandtanksmom

jerks! There's no reason that animal cruelty shouldn't be a felony! Isn't child abuse a felony? Same dang thing!

I agree 100%. I see that you're in one of the few states that doesn't have any felony designation for animal abuse, too. Do you know of any efforts there to change that?

The 4 states with no felony animal abuse are Mississippi, N. Dakota, S. Dakota and Idaho.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Well, I certainly didn't mean to offend, and actually I felt like I was agreeing with everything you said and we were just pondering reasons why the bill failed.

That's really funny, Nancy, as I was agreeing with you, too! Let's just forget about it. With written dialogue, it's easy for things to take a bizarro turn.

I know farm and hunting groups have lobbyists, but I'm not sure if millers do, other than the Hunte Corporation. AKC's involvement in opposing breeder bills is questionable, though, as they derive a lot of income from these 'high volume' breeders. Just goes to show that politics makes strange bedfellows. None of this, however, justifies blocking this animal cruelty bill.

Have a great day!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

That's really funny, Nancy, as I was agreeing with you, too! Let's just forget about it. With written dialogue, it's easy for things to take a bizarro turn.

I know farm and hunting groups have lobbyists, but I'm not sure if millers do, other than the Hunte Corporation. AKC's involvement in opposing breeder bills is questionable, though, as they derive a lot of income from these 'high volume' breeders. Just goes to show that politics makes strange bedfellows. None of this, however, justifies blocking this animal cruelty bill.

Have a great day!

Oh cool, I love your style of writing and you always seem so warm, friendly, and informative! I can't stand it when you lose patience with me! Thanks, and you have a great day too!

[ranant12]

The wonderful state of MS has done it again. Makes us all look like backwoods rednecks.

I can guess pretty quickly why this bill was opposed by the "farmers" here in MS. Just go to any livestock auction in MS and see the horrible conditions that animals arrive there in. Cows are brought in sick, crippled, with open sores, and sometimes barely living. The healthy cows are sold usually to other farmers and you would "think" that the sick ones would be put down or returned to the owner unsold. Think again!! Cattle that don't sell are purchased at a very low price by what we call the 'hamburger' trucks. Eighteen wheelers line up at night after the sale is over and load up all the left over animals to take them to slaughter. The only requirement is that the animal be able to walk up the ramp into the trailer. The people working there are instructed to do whatever it takes to get a sick cow to "walk" up that ramp, including numerous shock with a "cow stick". This is a stick that delivers an electric shock that would probably kill us. Remember this next time you want a cheap hamburger for dinner.

I KNOW this from first hand experience. My husband (now a Sheriff's deputy) used to work part time at the sale barn before he met me. He also worked at a chicken processing plant in his youth. Because of his experiences, he is basically a vegeterian at this point. He knows that there are no laws to protect these animals and no one to even report cruelty to. It's disgusting and a sad reflection on human kind.

Here in rural MS, animals are just animals. I can't tell you how many farmers don't believe that animals feel pain and if they do they are too "dumb" to remember it, in their opinion.

Our Govenor is all about big business and helping out his rich cronies. He doesn't give a crap about animals anymore than he does about public schools. MS is heading down hill fast. I don't know what else to even say at this point.