Helping Beemer overcome justified fear

[Elle]

Originally Posted by salazark

I have not catered to his fear. Of course you don't know me or myy handling ability so you wouldn't know this. He is afraid - plain and simple - all on his own. After the attack I was shaken up. Because of this I backed off and let the teachers in the class tend to him so that I wouldn't transfer my feelings to him. When we got home that night he was his regular feisty self playing with our lab mix. I really thought that he would be ok the next week. When we walked in the next week he was a little cautious but nothing too wierd. The second that other dog walked in he backed into a corner and started shaking. I had barely even noticed that that dog had come in. There is no way that he got that from my emotions. I've been taking classes for two years. I know that our emotions transfer to the end of the leash. I have been happy and positive with him. I repeat - I have not babied him. I asked the groomer about socializing him with other dogs because I was still trying to understand what his fear was based on - whether it was all dogs if it was based on the room. The next week when we came in again I didn't really expect the fear because the dog he is afraid of wasn't going to be there. I wasn't nervous or afraid. With all due respect, you have not seen what I have with him. I don't think anyone who knows me or my handling ability would say that I am babying him and catering to his fear or that he was somehow milking it. Quite the opposite - I am facing his fear and trying to do the best I can to help him face it and move on. I'm a little insulted by your comments but again - you don't know me or really seem to have an understanding about this situation. I am working with professional trainers and I will continue to follow their advice. They know me and they've seen what is going on with my dog and how I've handled it. Before you say it, yes I did come here looking for suggestions and I do thank you for giving me yours. I just don't think they apply to this situation because in reality what you are suggesting are all things I am alreaddoing.

I didn't take put all that time into you to offend you. You also posted something to help me before. I'm sorry you took it wrong. Said this on purpose because my heart is in the right place, I know what im talking about & if you knew me or handed him off to me I could probably explain it. I think you are a good egg. So please reconsider my iintentions.
Im direct! You said you haven't don't any thing different yet you got there early for him to adjust. That's catering like it or not. Im on your side. I don't know of you to be a bad breeder. We have mutual interest. I'm sorry if you took me wrong. But you & I want the same things here I think. Didn't I say let me know how it goes? I think you are sensitive to his size, don't be. They can bounce right back. So you know, being accused of babying your dog is never unkind. LOL

[katy-yorkie]

Originally Posted by salazark

I have not catered to his fear. Of course you don't know me or my handling ability so you wouldn't know this. He is afraid - plain and simple - all on his own. After the attack I was shaken up. Because of this I backed off and let the teachers in the class tend to him so that I wouldn't transfer my feelings to him. When we got home that night he was his regular feisty self playing with our lab mix. I really thought that he would be ok the next week. When we walked in the next week he was a little cautious but nothing too wierd. The second that other dog walked in he backed into a corner and started shaking. I had barely even noticed that that dog had come in. There is no way that he got that from my emotions. I've been taking classes for two years. I know that our emotions transfer to the end of the leash. I have been happy and positive with him. I repeat - I have not babied him. I asked the groomer about socializing him with other dogs because I was still trying to understand what his fear was based on - whether it was all dogs if it was based on the room. The next week when we came in again I didn't really expect the fear because the dog he is afraid of wasn't going to be there. I wasn't nervous or afraid. With all due respect, you have not seen what I have with him. I don't think anyone who knows me or my handling ability would say that I am babying him and catering to his fear or that he was somehow milking it. Quite the opposite - I am facing his fear and trying to do the best I can to help him face it and move on. I'm a little insulted by your comments but again - you don't know me or really seem to have an understanding about this situation. I am working with professional trainers and I will continue to follow their advice. They know me and they've seen what is going on with my dog and how I've handled it. Before you say it, yes I did come here looking for suggestions and I do thank you for giving me yours. I just don't think they apply to this situation because in reality what you are suggesting are all things I am already doing.

I don't think you are catering to his fear. Earlier this year I took Maggie for training at the SPCA. The trainer wanted me to sit on the floor with Maggie rather than stand (which turned out to be a good thing). A big lab whose owner could barely control him, came charging at us. As I picked up Maggie, this dog clawed the top of my hand and also broke the skin on Maggie, actually took out a plug of hair. My hand bled for the next hour. I had a terrible scar for a couple of months. After a visit to the vet, it was determined Maggie would be ok. Maggie shook every time we walked into that place. I'm not going to leave my dogs to be the entree for any dog. If they are afraid and want to be picked up, I will do it. A big dog in the neighborhood charged Buster and scared him so bad he came out of his harness. We had in home training for Buster and that worked really well. He wasn't distracted, he was the only dog and he learned very quick. It was expensive but I thought it was worth every penny.

[salazark]

Originally Posted by Elle

I didn't take put all that time into you to offend you. You also posted something to help me before. I'm sorry you took it wrong. Said this on purpose because my heart is in the right place, I know what im talking about & if you knew me or handed him off to me I could probably explain it. I think you are a good egg. So please reconsider my iintentions.
Im direct! You said you haven't don't any thing different yet you got there early for him to adjust. That's catering like it or not. Im on your side. I don't know of you to be a bad breeder. We have mutual interest. I'm sorry if you took me wrong. But you & I want the same things here I think. Didn't I say let me know how it goes? I think you are sensitive to his size, don't be. They can bounce right back. So you know, being accused of babying your dog is never unkind. LOL

Thanks for responding. I believe I do understand where you're coming from and I do appreciate it. I read a bunch of your posts after I wrote this and I do think you are a good person with the right intentions. You are one of the ones I respect. I think your post got to me because I've tried so hard not to do exactly what you say I am doing. Even right after it happened I asked my instructor "How do I handle this? What can I do to keep from making this worse than it is? I've been working closely with them so that I don't inadvertently do something that will feed his fear.

I do want to clarify one thing. When I said that I got there early to settle him before class I meant something different than getting him adjusted. They encourage us to come a bit early and work on attention exercises like touch and other basic commands so that they are in training mode when class starts. We call it getting them settled. That's what I was referring to. It just happened that this was the night that folks from the earlier class left late because they were registering for the next session. There were some big time barkers in that class.

I honestly do wish you were near me. I would love for you to see how I handle him. I think you would be surprised. I also don't doubt for a minute that you could help me. I may not always sound like it but I do love to learn and I'm willing to listen to those with more experience. Friends?

Thanks,
Karen

[salazark]

Originally Posted by katy-yorkie

I don't think you are catering to his fear. Earlier this year I took Maggie for training at the SPCA. The trainer wanted me to sit on the floor with Maggie rather than stand (which turned out to be a good thing). A big lab whose owner could barely control him, came charging at us. As I picked up Maggie, this dog clawed the top of my hzand and also broke the skin on Maggie, actually took out a plug of hair. My hand bled for the next hour. I had a terrible scar for a couple of months. After a visit to the vet, it was determined Maggie would be ok. Maggie shook every time we walked into that place. I'm not going to leave my dogs to be the entree for any dog. If they are afraid and want to be picked up, I will do it. A big dog in the neighborhood charged Buster and scared him so bad he came out of his harness. We had in home training for Buster and that worked really well. He wasn't distracted, he was the only dog and he learned very quick. It was expensive but I thought it was worth every penny.

Thanks for the response. I'm sorry you had a bad experience. It is difficult with these little ones. Something that would mean stitches to a bigger dog can mean death to one of ours. I need to do group classes with mine. In order to be a therapy dog they will have to pass the CGC and other tests. They have to be extremely well socialized and confident in unfamiliar situations. I do get what Elle was trying to say. There's a fine balance between keeping our little ones safe and turning them into a fearful neurotic creature. Something like the experience you or I had can tip that balance if we're not careful. I'm glad you found a solution that works for you.

[Elle]

Don't be so hard on yourself. Keep it simple. If you believe in yourself your dog will too. These wee ones thrive on structure more than children do. But with the size or cuteness, people give in. Just be firm. You don't owe me or anyone else any explanation. Aside from keeping him safe, he should be treated the same as a big dog. He should be protected from big dogs. Some people prefer a class with all toys. You get the benefit of training without the underlying concern that many toy people have.

Home is the easiest place to train. I don't think it prepares them for leaving the home. My dog does anything I ask of him at home.
Did you say he has a friend that he trusts? A lab, right?
If you aren't getting anywhere a shortcut would be to take the lab with you. He should work for you because you ask things of him. I like them to learn this by positive reinforcement. Has the lab been to class? Did you say he trusts the lab? Am I mixing you up with another person? This may be an option to try. I'm sure you don't want to work with a lab but if it helps your yorkie, right?

Originally Posted by salazark

Thanks for responding. I believe I do understand where you're coming from and I do appreciate it. I read a bunch of your posts after I wrote this and I do think you are a good person with the right intentions. You are one of the ones I respect. I think your post got to me because I've tried so hard not to do exactly what you say I am doing. Even right after it happened I asked my instructor "How do I handle this? What can I do to keep from making this worse than it is? I've been working closely with them so that I don't inadvertently do something that will feed his fear.

I do want to clarify one thing. When I said that I got there early to settle him before class I meant something different than getting him adjusted. They encourage us to come a bit early and work on attention exercises like touch and other basic commands so that they are in training mode when class starts. We call it getting them settled. That's what I was referring to. It just happened that this was the night that folks from the earlier class left late because they were registering for the next session. There were some big time barkers in that class.

I honestly do wish you were near me. I would love for you to see how I handle him. I think you would be surprised. I also don't doubt for a minute that you could help me. I may not always sound like it but I do love to learn and I'm willing to listen to those with more experience. Friends?

Thanks,
Karen

[chattiesmom]

I carefully read your thoughtful post. First of all, I am very sorry that you and Beemer had this terrible event at "obedience" class. Apparently the border collie's owner needs to take obedience/concentration lessons before attempting to teach her furkid.

Not only did Beemer suffer a tramatic event, you did as well. I have a feeling that you are reminding Beemer, through body language, about the attack. A dog's first line of communication is through body language and they "read" us like a book. Be sure that you are completely relaxed and are not "reliving" the attack OR that you even think that Beemer might remembering the attack when you go into the building. We humans are not able to hide or emotions from out dogs -- I genuinely believe that they sense our anxiety through out actions and even scents that we produce.

[salazark]

We went back to class this week. He has made a small amount of progress. We brought my other Yorkie, Sadie with us since the class has gotten so small. Her being there did seem to help. It is very obvious to everyone involved that he was very traumatized by the original experience. I asked the teachers in the class if they thought that somehow I was transmitting fear to him. They said "no way" and that I'm behaving normally with him.

He is slightly cautious about the room but very fearful if there are other dogs in the room. Tuesday he did more and I was able to loose lead walk him around the room as long as he didn't go near any other dog. He did some behaviors (sit, down, and touch) as well. I was very concious of my feelings and I can honestly say that I am not feeling stress or acting differently in class.

We have a break now until the end of January before the next session begins. I don't want to wait that long to get him back there and continue. Our teacher wants me to bring him in a few times over the break. She's going to bring her (very well trained) dog and let them meet in the front part where the offices are. After they are used to each other we will move them into the main room. After that we may try more dogs and work towards desensitizing him about other dogs.

I hope that eventually he can get back to where he was before this happened. We'll keep trying and see what happens.

Elle - yes my stepson has a lab mix and the two of them are living with us right now. Beemer does trust her and actually adores her. She hasn't had any formal training and I'm not sure what would happen if we threw her in a class setting. I'm encouraging my stepson to take her to class - she's a great dog. We did take Beemer, Sadie, and the lab (Marley) to the school just to let them hang out and have some playtime in the classroom. That went fine. It's one day at a time. I really wish you could see what is happening. It's so difficult to put in a post like this. I am confident now that I'm doing the right things to get past this.

[salazark]

I'm still working with Beemer but it is slow, slow going. He is very hesitant about even walking in the door. Once inside, he will do a few behaviors - he lasts about 5-10 minutes and then he shuts down. He just curls up in a ball and lays on the floor. We've been trying to catch him just before he shuts down and leave with him. I don't think it's working. This session he is in agility - with the idea that it's very different from most of the other classes and a lot of it will be outside. Honestly, until he gets over his fear of that room, I don't think there's much point. We've decided that I'm only going to bring him if the weather is nice and we're going to be outside. This part is my idea but they think it's worth a try. I think he needs to be inundated with that room. It will be difficult with my job but I think I need to take him there every day for five to ten minutes when there aren't any dogs around and just get him back to comfortable in the room. After that, we're going to begin to introduce well trained dogs into the room with him - not in a play atmosphere but on leash in a training type of environment. If we actually get to that point, then I think maybe he will be ready for a class again. It still just breaks my heart to see him - no-one there ever sees his impish little personality that I know he has. We are not even close to this being over. It's been five months. I just hope that I'm doing the right thing and one day we'll be past it. The director did tell me that he may never be the same dog as he was before this happened. I hope we can at least get closer than we are now.

Once again, if you've read this - thanks for reading my book.

[lisaly]

This is so heartbreaking, and I'm so sorry that both of you have experienced this. It is my hope that, even though this is still scary for Beemer, all of the love and care that he has gotten from you in trying to help him will have made him more confident and feel more loved in every other situation. Both Kiwi and Jolie, two of my little ones, experienced something traumatic and that was my experience with them. You are such a loving and dedicated parent, and Beemer and Sadie are lucky babies. I really hope that Beemer is able to overcome his fear, and I will be thinking about both of you. I truly believe that, with you as his mom, that he will be able to overcome anything.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by salazark

I'm still working with Beemer but it is slow, slow going. He is very hesitant about even walking in the door. Once inside, he will do a few behaviors - he lasts about 5-10 minutes and then he shuts down. He just curls up in a ball and lays on the floor. We've been trying to catch him just before he shuts down and leave with him. I don't think it's working. This session he is in agility - with the idea that it's very different from most of the other classes and a lot of it will be outside. Honestly, until he gets over his fear of that room, I don't think there's much point. We've decided that I'm only going to bring him if the weather is nice and we're going to be outside. This part is my idea but they think it's worth a try. I think he needs to be inundated with that room. It will be difficult with my job but I think I need to take him there every day for five to ten minutes when there aren't any dogs around and just get him back to comfortable in the room. After that, we're going to begin to introduce well trained dogs into the room with him - not in a play atmosphere but on leash in a training type of environment. If we actually get to that point, then I think maybe he will be ready for a class again. It still just breaks my heart to see him - no-one there ever sees his impish little personality that I know he has. We are not even close to this being over. It's been five months. I just hope that I'm doing the right thing and one day we'll be past it. The director did tell me that he may never be the same dog as he was before this happened. I hope we can at least get closer than we are now.

Once again, if you've read this - thanks for reading my book.

Karen, I'm so sorry to read this. Unfortunately I don't have any more suggestions to offer, other than the ones that you have tried.

I will how-ever talk with my trainer, and see if she has some suggestions.

If I could recap my understanding of his behaviour history, he is okay in the training with his pack mates, runs, plays normally, and he is okay in the training room with you and other human strangers doing obedience? He is okay meeting other dogs large or small on the street?

The problem is when other dogs come into the training and in that room only? Let me know.

I applaud your persistence, and obvious love and concern for your pups. I just wish I had some advice to offer in this moment.

Hugs to you

[Juliealfies mum]

I am so sorry you are going through this with your little one. I think you are doing all that you can and going to the outside training will be a big benefit.
We had the same problem with Lottie as a puppy she was picked up by another dog and since then she freaks out when she is outside and sees any dog!!
We have tried allsorts of things and classes an have made a little progress but she will never trust large dogs. She has made progress with some small dogs that she meets on a regular basis and she has made friends with some yorkies that she has met but anything else forget it , she tries to snap at them which does not bode well for a good outcome but we are working on this.
I think you are doing well and if it is only this room maybe you could try a little meetup elsewhere with the class participants. Good luck.

[Lizzie07]

Poor Beemer, it is heartbreaking to see a dog in terrible fear.

When I first started clicker training, no one I knew really knew much about it. I started with a Karen Pryor book, then got a video by her on clicker training. One of the segments in the video was her (or someone) working with a horse that had been horribly abused and was too afraid to go into a stall or the grooming area. So she started clicker training him to get go into the stall. It was one bit of the hoof at a time, but eventually the horse voluntarily stepped all the way in and more.

Maybe you can try something similar with Beemer. Try hard to get him to "act" happy, wag a tail, tilt his head in a happy cute way, something like that, and click that behavior. If you make it fun to have fun and make him think he is in control, ie getting you to click when he is having fun, maybe you can change his behavior in the building.

My only other suggestion would be to put Beemer in a puppy class somewhere else, even a Petsmart, make sure he has the time of his life "training," and then try a puppy class in the building where you were going. Or a puppy agility class, even, but a class where the dogs around him are less threatening and not really dogs, but puppies.

I really feel for you and Beemer. It takes a lot of work to get past a traumatic event for a dog, especially a sensitive dog. Please keep us updated as to what seems to help and what doesn't. I really want to know.

[salazark]

Originally Posted by lisaly

This is so heartbreaking, and I'm so sorry that both of you have experienced this. It is my hope that, even though this is still scary for Beemer, all of the love and care that he has gotten from you in trying to help him will have made him more confident and feel more loved in every other situation. Both Kiwi and Jolie, two of my little ones, experienced something traumatic and that was my experience with them. You are such a loving and dedicated parent, and Beemer and Sadie are lucky babies. I really hope that Beemer is able to overcome his fear, and I will be thinking about both of you. I truly believe that, with you as his mom, that he will be able to overcome anything.

You always seem to know just the right thing to say to lift my spirit. You are such a blessing to YorkieTalk. I'm so glad you're here!

[salazark]

Originally Posted by gemy

Karen, I'm so sorry to read this. Unfortunately I don't have any more suggestions to offer, other than the ones that you have tried.

I will how-ever talk with my trainer, and see if she has some suggestions.

If I could recap my understanding of his behaviour history, he is okay in the training with his pack mates, runs, plays normally,

Yes. We've had our "family" dogs there with him and he was fine. We didn't try to do anything other than a couple of sits and downs. Other than that we just let them run around and play.

and he is okay in the training room with you and other human strangers doing obedience?

I haven't taken him for a visit to the room since the Christmas break. At that time he was what I'd call cautious. His tail came up some but he wasn't himself. We weren't trying to really do any training. The humans that were there were familiar to him (teachers in the school).

He is okay meeting other dogs large or small on the street?

Absolutely! He doesn't appear to have any fear or discomfort meeting other dogs anywhere else. I really do believe in the theory that small dogs don't know they're small. I suspect he would be having the same issues if he were a large dog.

The problem is when other dogs come into the training and in that room only?

He has some issues with the room itself. He's not really comfortable there but it does seem as though perhaps when he's there he's kind of waiting for the dogs to show up. As I said, I haven't had him there by himself lately. That's one of the reasons I'd like to start taking him there every day. If he's comfortable around other dogs when he's not there, perhaps if we could get him to be more comfortable in that room, maybe other dogs wouldn't be an issue there either.

Let me know.

I applaud your persistence, and obvious love and concern for your pups. I just wish I had some advice to offer in this moment.

Hugs to you

Gail,

Thank you so much. I'd really love to ear your trainer's thoughts. I've learned a lot about how dogs are compartmental learners. When they learn a behavior one place they don't automatically understand that it applies everywhere. They have to have experiences in multiple places in order to generalize them. That's working to our advantage here in that he hasn't generalized his fear. I am very conscious of our surroundings when I'm out with him. I'm careful not to coddle him but I sure don't need him having an experience that allows him to start generalizing this. I really want so badly for him to get over his fear though. This is the only true positive training facility in our town outside of Petsmart. Maybe I could talk them into moving! This is something that we all (up until this) love. I'm working there as an assistant trainer. It's been such a positive hobby for all of us.

[salazark]

Originally Posted by Lizzie07

Poor Beemer, it is heartbreaking to see a dog in terrible fear.

When I first started clicker training, no one I knew really knew much about it. I started with a Karen Pryor book, then got a video by her on clicker training. One of the segments in the video was her (or someone) working with a horse that had been horribly abused and was too afraid to go into a stall or the grooming area. So she started clicker training him to get go into the stall. It was one bit of the hoof at a time, but eventually the horse voluntarily stepped all the way in and more.

Maybe you can try something similar with Beemer. Try hard to get him to "act" happy, wag a tail, tilt his head in a happy cute way, something like that, and click that behavior. If you make it fun to have fun and make him think he is in control, ie getting you to click when he is having fun, maybe you can change his behavior in the building.

My only other suggestion would be to put Beemer in a puppy class somewhere else, even a Petsmart, make sure he has the time of his life "training," and then try a puppy class in the building where you were going. Or a puppy agility class, even, but a class where the dogs around him are less threatening and not really dogs, but puppies.

I really feel for you and Beemer. It takes a lot of work to get past a traumatic event for a dog, especially a sensitive dog. Please keep us updated as to what seems to help and what doesn't. I really want to know.

Kristan,

Thanks so much for the suggestions! I think that would be a great idea. If I'm going to try to take him to that room every day, I want it to be somewhat close to training. I think that would be a great time to train "happy" into him. I also really like the idea of a puppy class. I don't know if Petsmart would let me bring an 18 month old dog to puppy class but he doesn't even weigh four pounds so they might. I'm sure my school would let him sit in on a puppy class down the road when we're ready.

I really appreciate your suggestions and I will let you know how it goes. I've read up a little on trauma in dogs and apparently it's a very long hard process to overcome.