Helping Beemer overcome justified fear

[salazark]

Originally Posted by Juliealfies mum

I am so sorry you are going through this with your little one. I think you are doing all that you can and going to the outside training will be a big benefit.
We had the same problem with Lottie as a puppy she was picked up by another dog and since then she freaks out when she is outside and sees any dog!!
We have tried allsorts of things and classes an have made a little progress but she will never trust large dogs. She has made progress with some small dogs that she meets on a regular basis and she has made friends with some yorkies that she has met but anything else forget it , she tries to snap at them which does not bode well for a good outcome but we are working on this.
I think you are doing well and if it is only this room maybe you could try a little meetup elsewhere with the class participants. Good luck.

Julie,

Thanks so much for responding. I'm so sorry that you're going through this with Lottie. How old is she and how long ago did this happen? I know that as bad as this is, I'm really lucky that Beemer has compartmentalized his fear to that one room. Good luck and let me know how Lottie is doing.

Karen

[gemy]

Originally Posted by salazark

Gail,

Thank you so much. I'd really love to ear your trainer's thoughts. I've learned a lot about how dogs are compartmental learners. When they learn a behavior one place they don't automatically understand that it applies everywhere. They have to have experiences in multiple places in order to generalize them. That's working to our advantage here in that he hasn't generalized his fear. I am very conscious of our surroundings when I'm out with him. I'm careful not to coddle him but I sure don't need him having an experience that allows him to start generalizing this. I really want so badly for him to get over his fear though. This is the only true positive training facility in our town outside of Petsmart. Maybe I could talk them into moving! This is something that we all (up until this) love. I'm working there as an assistant trainer. It's been such a positive hobby for all of us.

Okay Karen I think I have the behaviour clear now. I've left message for Ilona, she maybe out training today as it is lovely here.

While my experience which I will share, is not the same as yours, it was one wherein Magic had a very harsh correction (now remember we have a very large working breed and the training with some very dominant and tough dogs is different to our yorkies) he kept that memory for 2+ years and never liked the trainer at all. Everyone else including me (who was part of the correction) he was fine with. He would not even take a treat from her, and this boy loves his food.

So hang in there, it took two years for Magic to "get" over that memory, it just maybe that it will take that long for your pup.

[Juliealfies mum]

Originally Posted by salazark

Julie,

Thanks so much for responding. I'm so sorry that you're going through this with Lottie. How old is she and how long ago did this happen? I know that as bad as this is, I'm really lucky that Beemer has compartmentalized his fear to that one room. Good luck and let me know how Lottie is doing.

Karen

Hi Karen

Lottie is 5 years old and this happened when she was puppy we have tried all sorts of things . Clicker training , 3 different trainiers and a behaviourist to the house which cost a fortune!! All to no avail but we are still trying.

[yorkietalkjilly]

I just clicked on your thread from the Thundershirt thread. My Tibbe is a rescue who spent the 1st 9 mos. of his life apparently outside 99% crated and he has so many fears that we work on! I've had him almost 3 years now and he has overcome so many of his fears as we have worked through them.

He's not afraid of thunderstorms or other dogs or a room as your little dog but certain noises really scare him - one in particular is the sound of a large curtain rod in the den rattling a bit when I open or close the curtains! It sounds silly but his fear is as bad as those who fear thunderstorms or attacks.

He had conquered this fear almost completely with retraining until a recent incident when a small salamander from outside somehow got on the curtain rod while I was cleaning, I saw it, screamed loudly, jerked at the rod and it fell right on Tibbe, thankfully not injuring him physically. Much of the next 2 hours were involved in my own terror trying to find and corral the yucky thing as I am near phobic of them. All of this time Tibbe and I were terrified together and finally, in order to try to handle it myself B4 Animal Control could come and do it for me(I called them in panic), I got the awful thing under an upside down bowl on the floor and with cardboard slid under the bowl, and outside. Tibbe watched me go through all of this, shuddering and scared to death right after his ordeal of the falling, noisy rod and the poor little thing totally reverted to his fear of this sound again and worse - he was more terrified than ever.

The hardest part of once again trying to retrain him to not react fearfully is trying to get myself divorced from the scare and guilt I somehow carry for all this happening to him when I open or close the curtain and know he will be subject to the sound again. No matter how hard I try to detach, I guess I really can't always achieve that state as I'm so wanting him to succeed in not reacting fearfully. Some days I make it and we have a good session and others, Tibbe runs across the room. I can detach just fine in any other training situation, but this one, I'm not always successful, obviously, no matter how hard I try to prepare myself beforehand. And I do try!!!

I've wondered if maybe we could break through again faster if I get a trainer to work with Tibbe for an afternoon so he, apart from me, can see that this situation is now under control and can quit associating that curtain rod and its noise from that bad day with me and the agitation I must still carry some days. I honestly think Tibbe still remembers that day when I was not really his leader but scared and screaming and cringing trying to keep the lizard from running under the couch or something while trying to capture it without it touching me! Horrors!

Eventually, we would conquer this anyway, I am sure, but, like you, I do not want him to start to generalize his fear of this noise any more than he does, starting to associate it with similar sounds B4 we can make another breakthrough. So I think a person who has no history with Tibbe or me, that day and that curtain rod may be able to show Tibbe more quickly than I that it is just a plain old noisy curtain rod. I think once he sees that, we can take it from there.

Does that sound feasible to you? Before I do try the trainer, I thought I would ask someone who is having a similar situation with fear reaction.

[salazark]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I just clicked on your thread from the Thundershirt thread. My Tibbe is a rescue who spent the 1st 9 mos. of his life apparently outside 99% crated and he has so many fears that we work on! I've had him almost 3 years now and he has overcome so many of his fears as we have worked through them.

He's not afraid of thunderstorms or other dogs or a room as your little dog but certain noises really scare him - one in particular is the sound of a large curtain rod in the den rattling a bit when I open or close the curtains! It sounds silly but his fear is as bad as those who fear thunderstorms or attacks.

He had conquered this fear almost completely with retraining until a recent incident when a small salamander from outside somehow got on the curtain rod while I was cleaning, I saw it, screamed loudly, jerked at the rod and it fell right on Tibbe, thankfully not injuring him physically. Much of the next 2 hours were involved in my own terror trying to find and corral the yucky thing as I am near phobic of them. All of this time Tibbe and I were terrified together and finally, in order to try to handle it myself B4 Animal Control could come and do it for me(I called them in panic), I got the awful thing under an upside down bowl on the floor and with cardboard slid under the bowl, and outside. Tibbe watched me go through all of this, shuddering and scared to death right after his ordeal of the falling, noisy rod and the poor little thing totally reverted to his fear of this sound again and worse - he was more terrified than ever.

The hardest part of once again trying to retrain him to not react fearfully is trying to get myself divorced from the scare and guilt I somehow carry for all this happening to him when I open or close the curtain and know he will be subject to the sound again. No matter how hard I try to detach, I guess I really can't always achieve that state as I'm so wanting him to succeed in not reacting fearfully. Some days I make it and we have a good session and others, Tibbe runs across the room. I can detach just fine in any other training situation, but this one, I'm not always successful, obviously, no matter how hard I try to prepare myself beforehand. And I do try!!!

I've wondered if maybe we could break through again faster if I get a trainer to work with Tibbe for an afternoon so he, apart from me, can see that this situation is now under control and can quit associating that curtain rod and its noise from that bad day with me and the agitation I must still carry some days. I honestly think Tibbe still remembers that day when I was not really his leader but scared and screaming and cringing trying to keep the lizard from running under the couch or something while trying to capture it without it touching me! Horrors!

Eventually, we would conquer this anyway, I am sure, but, like you, I do not want him to start to generalize his fear of this noise any more than he does, starting to associate it with similar sounds B4 we can make another breakthrough. So I think a person who has no history with Tibbe or me, that day and that curtain rod may be able to show Tibbe more quickly than I that it is just a plain old noisy curtain rod. I think once he sees that, we can take it from there.

Does that sound feasible to you? Before I do try the trainer, I thought I would ask someone who is having a similar situation with fear reaction.

What an experience! I'm sure you were scared to death! It's a wonder we don't just ruin our dogs isn't it?

I'm going to answer you from experience not directly relating to Beemer and his experience, but more from Sadie. When She and I first started in agility, she was very afraid of the equipment. She didn't like anything where her feet didn't have solid footing under them. The teeter was her nemisis. We used wobble boards to get them used to a "moving surface". She would have none of it. I built her a bunch of agility equipment including a teeter. I laid the board down in the living room without the teeter and simply crumbled treats on it and left it. I let her explore at her own pace. Eventually I started training her to get on it. At first I clicked and treated for simply approaching it, later for putting a foot on it. You get the point. All of this was with the board flat on the ground. After she was comfortable climbing on the board, I put a small piece of threshold molding under the middle of it so that it would wobble ever so slightly. I went through the whole process again. Eventually, over time she got to where she would do a full agility teeter. If you go back and look at the video on my profile page, that was when she first was starting to "get" the teeter.

Is there any way that you can take the curtain and rod off the door temporarily? If you can, I think it might help both you and him with this. I would just put treats around it and try to get Tibbe to explore it. After he is comfortable around it, maybe with him a distance away, you could move the curtain ever so slightly so that it made the smallest of noises and treat him. Keep doing this till he doesn't mind the noise from the floor. I'm thinking it would be less scary when it was down on the floor where he could see it. Build up to as much noise as you can make with it before you put it back up. In fact, you might even lay it on a table or between two chairs and repeat before you move it all the way up. Let it become familiar instead of something scary. I'm no expert and this is just my thoughts - but it might be worth a try. If you do get a trainer, be sure to research them and make sure you get one that is positive and doesn't use any methods that you are opposed to. Good luck and let me know what happens.

Karen

[yorkietalkjilly]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. That sort of training you describe is all I know and the very training technique that I have used with all my dogs, the one that got him unafraid to start with, so naturally we started over at square one with the curtain and rod on the floor, covered with the treats, etc., and are all the way back to him not jerking too badly as I touch it and treat, etc. as I pick it up and move it about, rehang it.

To try to get him back after such a big regression a bit faster to avoid generalizing his fear, I just wanted to try to divorce myself from this salamander/curtainrod falling incident and bring in another person to show him apart from me that this piece of equipment in the room is just that - equipment - and not scary, since I am, apparently, no matter how effectively I positively reinforce, not really able to remain calm and relaxed enough as he is progressing more slowly this time around.

When I read about your trouble with Beemer in the room where he was scared and how he is reacting more slowly in coming back from his scare, it seemed like the two dogs were kind of in the same boat with their trainers - us, and wondered if Tibbe might make a faster breakthrough this time with another, uninvolved person to bridge this problem. Because apparently, no matter how I have schooled myself to relax, get unemotional, breathe deeply, detach and just train him not to fear, he still associates me with the curtain rod fear. It kind of sounded like your little Beemer might be associating you with his fear situation, too, since you've tried everything else as have I. Reading your story with Beemer sounds so like mine with Tibbe and it made me start wondering if it is us they can't get past. That is when I wondered if the uninvolved person might provide me a faster bridge to where Tibbe needs to get.